Does it really matter if we believe in God?

[Shantanu]

Note that the passage says that Buddha "established" the Oneness of God, which means that he spoke of it, but that does not mean he straightened it out. Judaism was the first monotheistic religion to champion the Oneness of God, and thus straighten out all the previous misconceptions that there were many gods.

If Buddha spoke of the God's existence of God, that is indeed news to me for I always considered Buddhism to be atheistic. Perhaps I was wrong about this. Notwithstanding Buddha prescribed a dharmic path to liberation or salvation if you like and through Kalama Sutta he left it to individuals to determine what the ideal dharma is. I can say today that the ideal dharma is given by truth accommodation, in which the truth path is ascertained for one's survival with dignity. If this is true of Buddhism than I would consider following Buddhism as Baha'i' do as a good religion in a multicultural society but this would naturally discount the notion of non violence and stress the importance of truth as justice in all ones dealings. There is no compromise to justice in terms of showing of compassion towards evil.

Is that how you see it as a Baha'i'?

 

[Trailblazer]

If Buddha spoke of the God's existence of God, that is indeed news to me for I always considered Buddhism to be atheistic. Perhaps I was wrong about this.

All I have to go on is what Abdu'l-Baha wrote about the Buddha, so I believe he established the Oneness of God. However, over time this teaching was lost and that is why most Buddhists are atheists today. This happens to all religions; over time, their original teachings are lost so they have to be renewed by a new religion. That is one reason why God sends new Prophets (what I normally refer to as Messengers of God).

Notwithstanding Buddha prescribed a dharmic path to liberation or salvation if you like and through Kalama Sutta he left it to individuals to determine what the ideal dharma is. I can say today that the ideal dharma is given by truth accommodation, in which the truth path is ascertained for one's survival with dignity. If this is true of Buddhism than I would consider following Buddhism as Baha'i' do as a good religion in a multicultural society but this would naturally discount the notion of non violence and stress the importance of truth as justice in all ones dealings. There is no compromise to justice in terms of showing of compassion towards evil.

Is that how you see it as a Baha'i'?

Justice and equity are very important in the Baha'i Faith. There is no compromise to justice in terms of showing of compassion towards evil.

2: O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4

“Tell, O ‘Alí, the loved ones of God that equity is the most fundamental among human virtues. The evaluation of all things must needs depend upon it.” Gleanings, p. 203

“Say: Observe equity in your judgment, ye men of understanding heart! He that is unjust in his judgment is destitute of the characteristics that distinguish man’s station.” Gleanings, p. 204

In spite of any changes that might have taken place since Buddha walked the earth, the Truth of what the Buddha taught shines through. Buddhism and the Baha’i Faith are strikingly similar in many ways. The article below compares Buddhism with the Baha’i Faith and points out their similarities and differences.

Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith

Here are a few things that stand out from this article:

Buddhism is acknowledged in the Bahá'í writings as one of the great world religions and its founder, the Buddha, is accorded a rank and station equal to that of all of the founders of the great world religions.

The student of the Bahá'í Faith and Buddhism is at first struck by the scarcity of Bahá'í expositions on Buddhist themes ……. Moreover, there are no surviving documents by the Bab or Bahá'u'lláh referring directly to Buddhism.

There are, however, a number of statements in the Bahá'í scriptures and authoritative Bahá'í texts about Buddhism and the Buddha. `Abdu'l-Bahá describes the Buddha as "the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity" (CoC1 43:15) and as the establisher of "a new religion" (CoC1 46:16).

1. Moral and ethical teachings

If we confine ourselves to the area of moral and ethical teachings, there are great similarities between the Buddhist and Bahá'í teachings.

a. Suffering (dukkha). Both the Buddha and Bahá'u'lláh see the suffering of humankind and their wish is to lead humanity out of this suffering. This is a primary focus of their teachings.

b. Four Noble Truths. The Buddha, in the first sermon that he gave after his enlightenment, identifies both the problem of humanity and its cure. These are called the Four Noble Truths, and the same statements may be found in the writings of Bahá'u'lláh. The Impermanence of this World (Anicca).

2. Metaphysical teachings

When we come to metaphysical teachings, there are more problems in correlating the Buddhist and Bahá'í viewpoints, mainly caused by the differences between ancient South Asian and nineteenth-century West Asian thought and terminology. Yet even here some similarities can be discerned.

a. The Impermanence of this World (Anicca). Bahá'u'lláh, like the Buddha, (DN 2:42 tr. Davids, Suttas 289) states: ". . . when they recognize its [the world's] fleetingness and are persuaded of its transience. The chances that overtake it, and the changes to which all things pertaining unto it are continually subjected, attest its impermanence" (PM 70:116).

b. The Illusory Nature of this World (Maya). "The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it . . . Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion" (GWB 153:327; cf BWF 386; SWA 177-8). Since the world is ever-changing, impermanent, and illusory, we are instructed both by the Buddha (DN 2:39; tr. Davids, Suttas 288) and Bahá'u'lláh (HWP 14) to attach no importance to it.

c. The Absolute. The Buddhas have assured us that behind this impermanent world and its illusion, there is a reality, the Absolute Reality. Because of this, it is possible for us to escape from the sorrow caused by the chances and changes of this world.

 

[Pudding]

No, I do not live for the material world. I do not consider family and friends to be part of the material world as they are humans who have souls. I do not have time for hobbies but I do enjoy nature and especially my many cats. My goal is not to live for myself, but rather for God and other people.

Please explain precisely what does you mean by "live for the material world" and provide some real life examples of it.

No, I do not care if I am happy, and I especially do not care if I have material happiness or physical pleasures, because those are only transitory. I seek only spiritual happiness because that is the only kind of happiness that is real to me, the only kind of happiness that is lasting.

What is spiritual happiness?

I do not speak for what other people should do but rather I speak only about what I think I should do. I do not think that personal happiness is a worthwhile goal, given the scriptures of my religion admonish us to surrender self and seek and perpetual union with God,regarding our personal desires as utter nothingness aside from God’s Purpose for us.

You do not speak for what other people should do?

If you indeed do not, then please don't use the noun "we/our/us" (the underline one) and replace them with "i/my/me" instead.

If you use "we/our/us" in those sentences when you talk to me, the "we/our/us" would including me and other people.

That is exactly what I said above, in so many words.

Nope. Drops the "we" and replace it to "you" in the sentence "we should live for your religion's version of God". Only after you do so then you do not speak for me and other people.

I can provide evidence but I cannot provide proof. Nobody can prove that God exists.

Definition of prove: demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument.

I haven't ask you to provide proof. I ask you to provide evidence which can demonstate that your God exists as real being but not fiction character (if you want other people to live for your God).

So, do you want to convince anyone here to live for your God? If you do, you better start provide the evidence which can demonstrate that your God exists as real being, just like you and me exists as real beings.

Nobody can prove, as in demonstrate the existence of your God is real but not fiction?
Then how do you convince people that your God exists as real being?

Evidence covers a lot of territory. What kind of evidence are you looking for?

What do you mean by "evidence covers a lot of territory"? What territory?
What kind of evidence do you have?

This is what you previously say:
God does not need anything from humans, He just wants what is best for them. What is best for us is to sacrifice our selfish desires for the good of other people.

If you want to convince anyone (including me) to believe what you previously say is fact, then you should provide evidence to demonstrate what you say is indeed fact. I'll not ask you to provide evidence to backup your statements if you do not want me to believe what you say is fact.

Now, if you want to convince me to believe what you say is fact, please provide evidence to demonstrate what you say is indeed fact, thank you. If you don't want to convince me, then just forget it.

No, that is not what I meant at all although I can understand why you might have thought that. I consider All of God’s Creatures very important to bother with, especially people, but also animals. What I do not consider important are material things that are nonessential. We need a car and a place to live and we need food to eat, but we do not need all the other things most people consider so important.

Your religion's book says:
“Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all else beside God as transient, and count all things save Him, Who is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 266

To be precisely, what the book says is actually this:
“Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all nonessential material things beside God's creation (essential material things and humans and animals) as transient, and count all those nonessential material things save His creation (essential material things and humans and animals), which is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness.”

That is less ambiguous now, thanks for clarify.

No, that is not what I meant at all. Moreover, we cannot even pay attention to God because He is not here. What we are to pay attention to is God’s Creation.

No, that is not what I am suggesting. We need to take care of what we need to live on this earth, such as our homes and cars, but I do not think we should consider them more important than God or other people or animals. When I had people trying to burglarize my rental house the police were called.

I said utter nothingness “besides God’s Purpose” but those people in need are part of God’s Purpose for us so they are not nothingness, they are really important.It is self and the worldly things we do not need to live that are like utter nothingness compared to God and everything in God’s Creation.

Yes, you had already clarified what the book actually says.

Though, please replace the noun "we/us" with "i/me" if you don't want to include me in your statements. If you want to include me in those of your statements which are relevant to your religion's God, then i'll have to ask you to provide evidence to prove and demonstrate that your statements are fact. Do you get it?

First, you would have to know what I am referring to, the “something” that is more fulfilling. The evidence that it is more fulfilling is my experience and the experiences of other people who have bene fulfilled by that something.

This is what you previously say:
“This is the ideal, but obviously it is not easy to attain for most people because most people find enjoyment in the material world and they are not going to sacrifice that unless they realize there is something more fulfilling.”

If you want to convince me to believe what you previously say (the underline one) is fact, then please carry on to explain precisely what is the something that is more fulfilling, and then provide evidence to prove and demonstrate that it is indeed a fact that there is something more fulfilling out there somewhere.

You say that your experience is evidence which demonstrate that there is some unknown thing more fulfilling out there somewhere.

I cannot examine the validity of your and other anonymous people's experience, as a result that's not a convincing evidence to me. Because the evidence is not convincing to me, so i still haven't been convince to believe what you say is fact.

The evidence you presented to me is convincing to you, but it's not convincing to me for the reason i explain above, please be understand about that, thank you.

But conversely, if it does matter, we should bother.

Right.

By the way, i still haven't been convince to believe that it does matter if i believe in any god and God before i die, as a result i still don't bother to believe in any god and God.

Sorry for the confusion. I do not know if it matters, only God knows if it matters, and if so how much it matters. The scriptures of my religion indicate that it does matter, but the repercussions of not believing in God before we die are not clearly stated. So that is why I do not know if it matters or not, or how much it matters if it does matter.

Thanks for clarify.

Come to think of it, it's really weird and uncomfortable for me to pretend God exists and hypothetically answer your question, and then you reply to me and talks about something about your God like it's fact. It gives me a feeling that you'll think i believe those things you say about your God is fact to me too. I hope i do not give you such impression, because i'm a non-believer afterall.

Perhaps i should refrain from answering such hypothetical question in the future, that's right. But please understand, i do not blame you for the weird feeling i have experience, i should of know better it'll happen if i answer those hypothetical questions.

Well, it was some time ago that I said that so I do not recall what the reasons were. I think one reason I wanted to know (if it was really that important if we believe in God before we die) is because I wondered if it is really necessary for me to be talking about God to so many atheists. The other reason is because I have a lot of atheist friends I care about, so I wonder what will happen to them after they die, if they still do not believe in God.

I see, i suppose a lot of believers from other abrahamic religions/denominations would feel the same way for you too, worrying that what will happen to you after you die, if you still do not believe in their religions' various kinds of different versions of Gods.

Okay, thanks for the conversations. It does drain out my energy and feels a little tired about this conversation, maybe my next post will be my last post in this thread to end this conversation. Bye.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please explain precisely what does you mean by "live for the material world" and provide some real life examples of it.

The material world is things that you can buy with money and things that you can do for entertainment or pleasure, things we might enjoy but things that are not lasting because they are here today and gone tomorrow.

So a cell phone or a car or a boat or a house is the material world. We might need a car and a house and a cell phone but we do not need a new one all the time, and we do not need a boat. There is nothing wrong with these things as long as one is not attached to them but most people are attached to them. Time is limited, as is money, so what people spend their time and money on is a good indicator of what they are attached to. Most people spend their time and money on material things and activities.

What is spiritual happiness?

That is a big question. I would say it is knowledge of God, awareness of God, and nearness to God, and living according to what God has enjoined us to do through the teachings of the great religions, living to do good works and help other people as opposed to selfish pursuits.

You do not speak for what other people should do?

If you indeed do not, then please don't use the noun "we/our/us" (the underline one) and replace them with "i/my/me" instead.

If you use "we/our/us" in those sentences when you talk to me, the "we/our/us" would including me and other people.

Thanks for pointing that out. Perhaps I should have said Me.

However, to be entirely accurate, the scriptures do not admonish only Me. The scriptures were addressing all of humanity so they admonish all of US to do these things.

But I am not saying that other people should do these things just because the scriptures of my religion enjoin all of US to do them. That is why I am not speaking for what other people should do.

Nope. Drops the "we" and replace it to "you" in the sentence "we should live for your religion's version of God". Only after you do so then you do not speak for me and other people.

All you do when you get caught up in semantics is create disharmony. I said we because literally it is we who are admonished to do these things, since the Revelation of Baha’u’llah was revealed for me and ALL the rest of humanity.

However, if people do not adhere to my scriptures, they are not bound by teachings and laws in scriptures they do not believe in, even though they were addressing ALL of humanity. We all have free will so belief has to be by choice. Anyone can reject what Baha’u’llah revealed if they want to.

Definition of prove: demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument.

I haven't ask you to provide proof. I ask you to provide evidence which can demonstate that your God exists as real being but not fiction character (if you want other people to live for your God).

You are asking me to provide proof because you are asking me to demonstrate the truth or existence of God by evidence or argument. I told you that I cannot do that. We all have to prove that God exists to ourselves, if we want to believe in God. Nobody else can prove it to us.

So, do you want to convince anyone here to live for your God? If you do, you better start provide the evidence which can demonstrate that your God exists as real being, just like you and me exists as real beings.

Nobody can prove, as in demonstrate the existence of your God is real but not fiction?
Then how do you convince people that your God exists as real being?

I do not try to convince anybody that God exists because that is not my job, not my responsibility. All I can do is point you to the evidence that indicates to me that God exists but then you have to do your own independent investigation of the evidence in order to determine if it constitutes evidence for you.

What do you mean by "evidence covers a lot of territory"? What territory?
What kind of evidence do you have?

I have evidence that indicates (not proves) that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, which means that God manifested Himself, which means that God exists.

If you want to convince anyone (including me) to believe what you previously say is fact, then you should provide evidence to demonstrate what you say is indeed fact. I'll not ask you to provide evidence to backup your statements if you do not want me to believe what you say is fact. If you don't want to convince me, then just forget it.

I never said it was a fact, it is a belief. As such, it could be true or false. Everyone has to determine if it is true or false if they want to know.

I do not want to convince you because that is not my job. If you want to know, you have to convince yourself. I can point you to the evidence and then you would have to investigate it yourself. For example, if you want to know if Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, you could start by reading an introductory book such as this one, which is one of the first Baha’i books I ever read: Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

Yes, you had already clarified what the book actually says.

Though, please replace the noun "we/us" with "i/me" if you don't want to include me in your statements. If you want to include me in those of your statements which are relevant to your religion's God, then i'll have to ask you to provide evidence to prove and demonstrate that your statements are fact. Do you get it?

When I said “we” I was referring to humans collectively, humanity as a whole, and what humanity is enjoined to do according to what Baha’u’llah wrote, but I understand that YOU do not want to be included and I understand why.

If you want to convince me to believe what you previously say (the underline one) is fact, then please carry on to explain precisely what is the something that is more fulfilling, and then provide evidence to prove and demonstrate that it is indeed a fact that there is something more fulfilling out there somewhere.

You say that your experience is evidence that there is some unknown thing more fulfilling out there somewhere.

I cannot examine the validity of your and other anonymous people's experience, as a result that's not a convincing evidence to me. Because the evidence is not convincing, so i still haven't been convince to believe what you say is fact, please be understand that, thank you.

A first step would be to understand what is more fulfilling and then you would need to understand why it is more fulfilling. Then you would need to experience it in order to realize that it is more fulfilling. These things are all explained in the scriptures of my religion.

I can only describe my own experiences, what I was like before I decided the God mattered more than my selfish desires and what it is like for me now that I have realized that doing what God has enjoined me to do is better for me than what I was doing before that. I did once live for the “things of the world” although I was never that attached to them because I always knew there was something better. I just did not know how to go about changing, until about six years ago. It has been a process of change since that time and I still have a long way to go. Spiritual growth is never ending. But I had to sacrifice certain things before I could begin my journey, because they were getting in my way.

By the way, i still haven't been convince to believe that it does matter if i believe in any god and God before i die, as a result i still don't bother to believe in any god and God.

From my perspective, the only way you could ever realize that it does matter is if you realized that God exists, but you would have to want to know and you would have to do some investigation. Everything we do has to have a start somewhere. And there has to be a motivation, a desire to change.

Come to think of it, it's really weird and uncomfortable for me to pretend God exists and hypothetically answer your question, and then you reply to me and talks about something about your God like it's fact. It gives me a feeling that you'll think i believe those things you say about your God is fact to me too. I hope i do not give you such impression, because i'm a non-believer afterall.

The reason I talk about God as if God is a fact is because I am sure God exists, so it is a fact to ME. But I certainly do not it expect it to be a fact to YOU or to anyone else. I know you are a non-believer, but all non-believers are not the same. I do not know why you are a non-believer or if you were ever a believer. It would help if I understood a little about your background.

Perhaps i should refrain from answering such hypothetical question in the future, that's right. But please understand, i do not blame you for the weird feeling i have experience, i should of know better it'll happen if i answer those hypothetical questions.

I am sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable. For most of my life I was a believer with little conviction but I suffered a lot to get to where I am today so now I have a lot of conviction, certitude that my beliefs are in fact true. But I certainly do not expect others to share my certitude, this is something we all come to or don’t come to, on our own. Belief in God is a very personal thing.

I see, i suppose a lot of believers from other abrahamic religions/denominations would feel the same way for you too, worrying that what will happen to you after you die, if you still do not believe in their religion's version of God.

Some of them might worry, if they actually cared about me, but some believers do not really care about other people as long as they know (or believe) that they are saved and will go to heaven. I care about everyone, and I want to see that everyone experiences a good afterlife. I worry more about atheists because they are more at risk than people of other religions who already believe in God.

Okay, thanks for the conversations. It does drain out my energy and feels a little tired about this conversation, maybe my next post will be my last post in this thread to end this conversation. Bye.

I understand how these conversations can be tiring because I have them with many people every day on more than one forum, and this is what I do in all my spare time because I consider it very important. But I have to say that I have not had the occasion to meet a nonbeliever that is as courteous and sincere as you are very often, even though I post almost exclusively to nonbelievers.

 

[Trailblazer]

1948 can be one of two things. It can be preparation for the Messianic Age, which would mean that the Messianic Age is not here yet. Or it could mean the beginning of the Messianic Age. Since none of the PM's of Israel have been the Messiah, the first has been true,that it has been preparation for the Messianic age in my opinion.

Or it could be that 1948 is not when the Jews started returning to Israel.

'Gathering of the Exiles': After Thousands of Years, Jews Come Home to Israel

JERUSALEM, Israel – Nearly 70 years before the rebirth of the modern State of Israel, the Jewish people began to return to their ancient homeland, as the prophets foretold. And they're still coming.

It's called 'aliyah' – literally 'going up.' Taken from biblical times, the term describes the Israelites going up to Jerusalem to worship at the Temple. Today, it means immigrating or returning to Israel.

They come from all over the world to a place many have never been. Yet the Jewish people have longed to return to this land for thousands of years........

Biblical prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, among others, all spoke of a time when God would bring the Jewish people back to the Land of Israel. Amos said they'll never be dispersed again.

"I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them," says the Lord your God." (Amos 9:15, NASB)
​

Nowhere in the following verses does it say that every Jew on earth will return to Israel. That is not even rational or logical, because people are going to live where they CHOOSE to live, as God is not going to force Jews who live in other countries to move to Israel.

Gathering of Israel

In chapter 11 the Book of Isaiah says:
11. And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
12. And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.

In chapter 29 the Book of Jeremiah says:
14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

In chapter 20 the Book of Ezekiel says:
41. With a pleasing savor I shall accept you when I take you out of the nations, and I shall gather you from the lands in which you were scattered, and I shall be hallowed through you before the eyes of the nations.
42. And you will know that I am the Lord when I bring you to the land of Israel, to the land that I lifted My hand to give to your forefathers.​

500,000 years? That's not an "age." 500,000 years ago, we were not even modern human beings yet. In another 500,000 years we will undoubtedly no longer be human. In ancient history an age was more like 800 years for the iron age. Time has sped up enormously since then. The age of industry in Europe lasted less than 200 years.

500,000 years is the length of the present universal cycle of religion, but there will be more than one age within this cycle.

TABLE: BAHA'I SACRED HISTORY

I. PREVIOUS UNIVERSAL CYCLES - of which no trace remains

II. PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

· A. ADAMIC CYCLE, CYCLE OF PROPHECY - lasted approximately 6,000 years

1. Adam 1. Indian religious figures
2. Noah - Krishna
3. Abraham
4. Moses 2. Zoroaster
5. Jesus 3. Buddha
6. Muhammad
+ Other unknown or unspecified prophets

· B. BAHA'I CYCLE, CYCLE OF FULFILLMENT - to last 500,000 years

1. The Bab
2. Bahá'u'lláh - Universal Manifestation for this Universal Cycle

a. Heroic, Primitive, or Apostolic Age - 1844-1921 (or 1932 - the death of BahiyyihKhanum)

i. Ministry of the Bab (1844-53)
ii. Ministry of Bahá'u'lláh (1853-92)
iii. Ministry of `Abdu'l-Bahá (1892-1921)

b. Formative, Transitional, or Iron Age - 1921 -

i. First Epoch (1921-44/46) - Erection of the Administrative Order
ii. Second Epoch (1946-63) - spread of the Faith beyond the confines of the Western Hemisphere
iii. Third Epoch (1963-86) - emergence of the Faith from obscurity and initiation of social and economic development plans
iv. Fourth Epoch (1986- ) - national communities taking on the responsibility for their own development
v. Successive further Epochs

c. Golden Age
Successive Epochs leading to the Most Great Peace

3. Further Manifestations - under the shadow of Bahá'u'lláh

· END OF PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

III. FURTHER UNIVERSAL CYCLES

Ages and Cycles​

“That raises another point. Do you really think that if the Messiah came and prophecies were fulfilled, all the Jews would recognize Him as the causation?”

I don't know what you mean by "causation," but I know that the entire world will recognize him. It will not be an event that people will dispute, it will be the most obvious thing in the world. Same with the messianic era. You won't be having people saying, "Jiminy cricket, how can you say this is the messianic era?" The difference will be so incredible that no one will have any doubt.

I have to say that I consider this kind of expectation completely unrealistic, because it is inconsistent with ALL of religious history to date. Now you sound just like Christians who believe that when Jesus returns everyonein the world would recognize Jesus. Did EVERYONE recognize Moses or Jesus when Jesus first appeared? Hardly anyone did, so what reason do you have to think that EVERYONE would recognize the Messiah when He comes. Do you know anything about history or human behavior?

It is also completely unrealistic to think that EVERYONE will recognize the Messianic Era, as if it will suddenly appear all at once.That is completely illogical. The only way that could happen is if God actually intervened and CREATED the Messianic Age Himself. But that is not how God operates, He never has. God leaves it to humans to fix what is wrong in the world, and there is NO reason to think it will be any different in the Messianic Age. Baha’u’llah came and drew up the blueprint instructions so humans could build the Kingdom of God on earth, which will happen during the Messianic Age.

“If the prophets meant one thing, how do you think that the people interpreting those prophecies can know what that one thing was?”

Ask the people to whom the prophecies were given and who by our oral traditions have kept the original understanding of those prophecies alive.

But here is the problem the Jewish people have, and it is the SAME problem the Christians have. Jews cannot even agree on the interpretations of the prophecies, just as Christians cannot agree on the interpretations of their prophecies. I know that because I have been doing some research.

“Do you have any scriptures that say that there would be an end to war within the lifetime of the Messiah or in any specified time-frame after that?”

You don't seem to understand the basics. Things like "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation" are descriptions of the messianic age (another reason we know that we are not in the messianic age). When these prophecies are all fulfilled, and we are in the messianic age, you look around and see who is ruling Israel. That person is the Messiah. These things will be very obvious. No one will dispute them. In fact, the other religions of the world will suddenly realize that while they had some things right, that Judaism carried the flame of truth. It says in the prophets that 10 non-Jews will grasp the hem of a Jew and say Let us go with you, for we know that God is with you.

You said: “These things will be very obvious. No one will dispute them. In fact, the other religions of the world will suddenly realize that while they had some things right, that Judaism carried the flame of truth.”I have to say this is incredible and very arrogant. As aJew, you are no different from a Christian who believes that everything revolves around your religion and you are the “chosen people” of God. Baha’is do not believe that we are chosen; we believe that all religions are the religions of God and that the Baha’i Faith is simply the fulfillment of the prophecies of past religions. Moreover, we believe there will be more religions revealed in the future. The Baha’i Faith is not the BEST or the LAST religion.

You have the right to believe what you do, just like the Christians, but none of what you envision is going to happen, because Baha’u’llah was the Messiah. The Messiah is not going to rule Israel; that is based upon misinterpretations of scripture. The Messiah is going to rule the entire world, as He was the Promised One of ALL the religions, not just Judaism: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage.
War will come to an end DURING the Messianic Age, but we are only in the very beginning of that age.

I'm not saying this to proselytize you, not by far. I'm simply saying that while you have a lovely God-serving religion, it doesn't have *everything* quite right.

Don’t you believe you have everything right, just like every religious adherent?

Even if Baha’u’llah was not the Messiah, there is no way you can dismiss Jesus and Muhammad. 55% of the world population worships Jesus and Muhammad. Are all those people wrong and only Jews are right? What kind of God would allow that many people to be completely wrong? How will that ever be corrected? Do you really think that everyone will become Jews when the Messiah comes? Baha’is do not expect that but it doesn’t matter because we believe all religions are the Truth.

OR one way of knowing the Messiah is that he is not going to contradict the meaning of the prophets.

He didn’t, He just contradicted YOUR interpretation of what the prophets said.

I'm not interested in the various messiah of other religions. I'm only interested in the Jewish Messiah. The Jewish Messiah rules during the Messianic Era. He does not suffer and die as a sacrifice. He does not save people from their sins. He is not simply a wonderful messenger from God. Or anything of that nature.

No, the Messiah does not do any of that, and that is why Jesus was not the Messiah.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's a matter of only one religion being right about him. You are no different. You claim your religion actually has the Messiah even.

I can agree with you on that, but the difference between the Baha’i Faith and all the other religions is that we actually HAVE a Messiah to look at, whereas all the others only have a hope, a conception of what He will be like according to their interpretations of their own scriptures which all contradict the conceptions of all the other religions. As long as all the religions cling to their own personal interpretations of scriptures, nothing will ever change. This is the primary reason religious adherents have not recognized Baha’u’llah, they cannot interpret their scriptures any way other than what they have decided is the right way, and they are not even willing to entertain any other possibilities. However, the fact that there are so many different interpretations of scriptures, even within the same religion, tells us that there is more than one way to interpret scriptures. Knowing that, one could logically conclude that the Baha’i interpretation of those scriptures is just as likely to be correct as any other.

In Judaism, the Messiah will rule over Israel, but (I think this is in the Talmud) it is said that he will be accepted by the whole world. I don't really know how it will all work. I only know that he will be a political leader. Jeremiah 33:15In those days, and at that time, will I cause a shoot of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.

Of course, this is according to your personal interpretation of your scriptures. I do not interpret that verse to mean that the Messiah will be the one who is literally judging or ruling, but rather judgment and righteousness will come to pass in the land as the result of what Baha’u’llah revealed in His Writings. It is the Law of God that will execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90​

Some sacrifices remove unintentional sin. Some were merely to worship, some of these every day. Not all sacrifices were animals.

I should mention that some Jews are horrified at the idea of a third Temple being built and sacrifices resuming. These tend to be Jews that do not believe in a literal messiah as well.

Well, I am glad to hear that because there is no reason for animal sacrifices. This is a horrid ancient practice that serves no purpose. The whole idea of sacrifices to remove sin is no different from what Christians believe. Sin is removed by people following the teachings and laws of their religions and thereby making a decision not to sin.

“By contrast, Baha’u’llah has come so we can now look at the prophecies and see how they were fulfilled by His coming.”

I just have to take issue with that. I just don't see how you can say it. Let's take just one prophecy. Just the one about "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." Do you realize how many wars their have been since the birth of the Baha'u'llah? And not just wars, but cataclysmic wars. Indeed, we had the atom bomb fall on Japan. How can you say this prophecy has been fulfilled with a straight face?

I did not say that prophecy HAS been fulfilled, I said it WILL be fulfilled during the Messianic Age.

You can take all the issue you want with it but you are missing a very important concept, as I said before. The Messianic Age is called an “age” because it will unfold over time, so there is no reason to think that as soon as the Messiah shows up or within His lifetime, all wars would cease. Unless He has some supernatural power, He could not override the flow of history and human nature.

Baha’u’llah did have supernatural power, the power of God, but He could not force people to recognize Him. If the kings and rulers of His day had recognized him we could have had the Most Great Peace within His lifetime, but most of the kings and rulers were Christians and Muslims so they tenaciously clung to their own religious traditions and thus rejected Baha’u’llah. Free will is this the fly in the ointment andGod does not mess with free will.

After the kings and rulers rejected Baha’u’llah and His message of peace, this is what He wrote to them:

“Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.

O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful.

Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 253-254​

Forgive me my friend, but I don't think I can discuss this without becoming terribly upset. Not with you of course, but just with the topic. In my mind, there is nothing Jews could ever have done to deserve the Holocaust. It was simply the evil of the world, and they will pay.

I agree it was evil and undeserved, and I think those who were responsible will be punished in the afterlife, even if they were also punished by the justice system in this life.

I bless Hashem that we can have such a loving discussion over these things. It seems like these past months it has been bombing after shooting after church being burned down by haters of one faith or another. It frightens me, as I feel we are entering an another age of fanaticism. Just two days ago, a synogogue only an hour away from me was attacked by a shooter, and the only reason it wasn't a bloodbath was because the gun jammed. Today the news was about a terrorist plot by a muslim extremist to kill people at a rally. I take comfort in knowing there are people like you and I who can coexist so peacefully, who can even care about each other when we discuss our differences.

Well, I think it is horrible that religions cannot coexist in peace and that religious people attack each other the way they have been doing lately. I do not think this will ever completely end until humanity realizes that religion is one, all part of the unfolding process of revelation from God to man.

I am sorry if I came down a little hard on you over the Messiah, this is the main bone of contention between Baha’is and Christians as well, for obvious reasons. We seem to be getting along just fine until we say that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah. Then all hell breaks loose.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not sure why you have things out of order. It's quite simple. There is a time where things get very bad before they come into the ultimate order (the messianic age).

There is no reason to think that things will get very bad and then the Messiah will come and then the Messianic Age will unfold during the lifetime of the Messiah, as an age is a lot longer than the life span of one man.

It is in the Writings of Baha'u'llah that it will get much worse before it gets better...

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

But most people will not recognize the Messiah until it gets better, because then they will be able to correlate the Messianic Age with the Messiah. When things get better and the Divine Standard is unfurled everyone will recognize the Messiah, as you said before.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

 

[Shantanu]

All I have to go on is what Abdu'l-Baha wrote about the Buddha, so I believe he established the Oneness of God.

What I have heard is that when Buddha was contemplating He was visited by Vishnu and Brahma who were God that asked Buddha to stop what he was doing because it went against the concept of God. So I do not know who Abdul-Baha is referring to when you talk about the Oneness of God. We go by the general practice of Buddhism which marks it out as a atheistic religion and so incompatible with what Baha'u'llah taught as a messenger of God that you say He was.

 

[Trailblazer]

What I have heard is that when Buddha was contemplating He was visited by Vishnu and Brahma who were God that asked Buddha to stop what he was doing because it went against the concept of God. So I do not know who Abdul-Baha is referring to when you talk about the Oneness of God. We go by the general practice of Buddhism which marks it out as a atheistic religion and so incompatible with what Baha'u'llah taught as a messenger of God that you say He was.

I do not know what Abdu'l-Baha was referring to or where he got his information. Baha'u'llah never wrote anything about Buddha. One comment made by Abdu'l-Baha is not enough to know anything .

Nobody really knows for sure what Buddha taught but what was important of the teachings survived and are practiced today. People do not have to believe in God to lead a spiritual life.

 

[Shantanu]

I do not know what Abdu'l-Baha was referring to or where he got his information. Baha'u'llah never wrote anything about Buddha. One comment made by Abdu'l-Baha is not enough to know anything .

Nobody really knows for sure what Buddha taught but what was important of the teachings survived and are practiced today. People do not have to believe in God to lead a spiritual life.

Buddhism is a good religion but there is a better way to live then spending one's time practicing it as it believes in reincarnation and numerous lives over which one has a chance to sort out ones karma. I believe that we only have one life and we need to get it right this time round for total liberation (moksha). This is attained through Satya-advaita or truth accommodation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Buddhism is a good religion but there is a better way to live then spending one's time practicing it as it believes in reincarnation and numerous lives over which one has a chance to sort out ones karma. I believe that we only have one life and we need to get it right this time round for total liberation (moksha). This is attained through Satya-advaita or truth accommodation.

I do not believe in reincarnation. I believe we only have one life on this earth and we had better get it right or there will be consequences in the life to come. I do not know exactly what those consequences will be because that has not been fully revealed in scriptures, but we are told that the reason we are put on this earth is to evolve spiritually. We will continue to evolve spiritually in the next life, but if we do not get what we need in this life we will be handicapped in the next life so it will be very difficult to progress.

Can you briefly explain what you mean by "truth accommodation?"

 

[Shantanu]

Can you briefly explain what you mean by "truth accommodation?

One continually seeks truth, exposes truth and accepts the newfound reality to accommodate oneself in the truth discovered by practicing oneness with truth. One is persistently seeking to analyse everything in terms of whether it is delusional or true by focusing on Truth Consciousness as a yoga method. One maintains a detailed diary where all actions are written down and reflected upon.

In this way one seeks to determine truth through the process of comprehending reality by practicing oneness with truth (truth accommodation) through rational and scientific truth-seeking based on faith in truth. One does not have any duty or necessary actions except that which is indicated in ones truth path on a continual basis.

It is the only way to survive I have found, and because God blesses the truth accommodator one realises God through the process of satya-advaita or truth accommodation. Once one has realised God, one must seek to consult with God at all times: sometimes He answers, not always. but you have done your duty. That is the most important thing in satya-advaita or truth accommodation.

 

[Trailblazer]

One continually seeks truth, exposes truth and accepts the newfound reality to accommodate oneself in the truth discovered by practicing oneness with truth. One is persistently seeking to analyse everything in terms of whether it is delusional or true by focusing on Truth Consciousness as a yoga method. One maintains a detailed diary where all actions are written down and reflected upon.

In this way one seeks to determine truth through the process of comprehending reality by practicing oneness with truth (truth accommodation) through rational and scientific truth-seeking based on faith in truth. One does not have any duty or necessary actions except that which is indicated in ones truth path on a continual basis.

It is the only way to survive I have found, and because God blesses the truth accommodation one realizes God through the process of satya-advaita or truth accommodation.

That sounds like a really good philosophy, a good way to live, always seeking more truth. If we ever think we have arrived that is when we are in trouble because nobody can ever know everything there is to know. There is always more that we can learn.
I am always looking for more truth, and I find it in many religions and outside of religion.
I am also always analyzing my own thoughts and behavior to determine if I am living in accordance with the Will of God to the extent that I can know it, through the teachings of my religion and others.

 

[Shantanu]

That sounds like a really good philosophy, a good way to live, always seeking more truth. If we ever think we have arrived that is when we are in trouble because nobody can ever know everything there is to know. There is always more that we can learn.
I am always looking for more truth, and I find it in many religions and outside of religion.
I am also always analyzing my own thoughts and behavior to determine if I am living in accordance with the Will of God to the extent that I can know it, through the teachings of my religion and others.

The only downside to this way of living is that the mental health authorities get worried and put a label on you as suffering from persistent delusional disorder when all you are trying to do is truth discovery and truth accommodation. I have been asked to take antipsychotic medication risperidone (6 mg daily) and anti-depressant medication sertraline (100 mg daily) to temper my urge for truth as I see it. I take the medications or else the State will incarcerate me in a mental hospital for non-cooperation with the State Psychiatrist.

But for me there is no other way of living because by exposing truth I am bringing God out into the open for me to see and that makes me happy.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Show me the line of David today which the Messiah will be born from.

You cannot do that so would not be able to show when a Messiah was the true Messiah by that point.

Well, we CERTAINLY know that the Messiah will be a Jew, and will be of the tribe of Judah.

And yes, there are those today who do have records of their descent, as awesome as that seems, given that so many lost their records in the Shoah.

However Christ is born and is known to have been born of the line of David. There are two fine points that the Jews tend to omit and that is a child born within the union is classed as
the child of the Husband, That both Mary and Jesus were born of the line of Aaron and Moses. Because Mary like her cousin Elizabeth were born of a priestly tribe and we know Joseph
born of the line of David..

There have been a gazillion descendents of David. All of them, like Jesus, have failed to fulfill the prophecies, have failed to be the messiah.

Where has Gods Kingdom ever been other than with the people who are his temple?
Nations stopped lifting up swords a long long time ago.
They do not go into battle with swords.

God's kingdom is wherever he is OBEYED.

And please, "lifting up swords" is a euphemism for going to war." And war is still very much a part of humanity. It was mere decades ago that we dropped the atom bomb. We have simply gotten better, at self destruction, rather than better at peace.

'For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.'
Psalm 22:16-18 This was written over a thousand years before Christ and before Romans invented Crucifixion as a means of punishment of death,

In the oldest Hebrew manuscripts the term is clearly 'pierced' before you say the definition was not correct when translated. So much is ignored and how today could the things that happened
to Jesus happen to someone else?

You are mistaken. "Pierced" is a translation of a translation. Any time you work with a translation, you are working with an inferior copy. You need to go to the HEBREW. So, no, it is not a messianic prophecy.

This is the problem we have -- people seeing messianic prophecies where none exist. You simply have followed in this annoying Christian deceit.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, it comes from the Baha'i texts.

IOW, you have no historical evidence of it. You are dependent on somehow how came a millennium later to make it up out of whole cloth.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Or it could be that 1948 is not when the Jews started returning to Israel.

Well, of course Jews began trickling in back in the 19th century, at the beginning of the Zionist movement. But there was something special about 1948, because it acknowledged Israel as a national state. At any rate, the return of the Jews to Israel had nothing to the with the Baha'u'llah.

​

Nowhere in the following verses does it say that every Jew on earth will return to Israel.

But certainly it means the overwhelming majority. We are still in the process of the prophecy being fulfilled.

500,000 years is the length of the present universal cycle of religion, but there will be more than one age within this cycle.

Like I said, 500,000 years is just nonsense. Modern humans have only existed for about 200,000 years so far.

​

I have to say that I consider this kind of expectation completely unrealistic, because it is inconsistent with ALL of religious history to date.

But the coming of the messianic era will be totally unlike any other in the history of the world. It will have no precedent. And it will BE like no other epoch.

It is also completely unrealistic to think that EVERYONE will recognize the Messianic Era

Actually THAT is much more feasible than that there will be no atheists, yet it is prophecies that every person will know God.

I have to say this is incredible and very arrogant. As aJew, you are no different from a Christian who believes that everything revolves around your religion and you are the “chosen people” of God.

You have to understand what Judaism is. First of all, we are NOT exclusivistic. Judaism by no means requires that others become Jews. In fact, we discourage conversion. But we believe that as a people we have been set aside as a priestly people, to be a light to the nations of the world. That RESPONSIBILITY is a great price to pay -- it means following 613 rules, most of which others don't need to follow. So when we say "chosen," you have to ask, "chosen for what?" Because honestly, as Tevye asks, "Once in a while, can't you choose someone else?"

The Messiah is not going to rule Israel; that is based upon misinterpretations of scripture. The Messiah is going to rule the entire world, as He was the Promised One of ALL the religions, not just Judaism

It does not good to believe the Baha'i prophecies if they contradict the prophecies of the Tanakh, which say that the Messiah will be David. Who was David? The King of Israel. Sure the entire world will recognize his authority, as you say. But first and foremost he is David. If you accept the Jewish prophets, you must acknowledge this.

Don’t you believe you have everything right, just like every religious adherent?

Do you?

The finite mind cannot fathom an infinite God.

Even if Baha’u’llah was not the Messiah, there is no way you can dismiss Jesus and Muhammad. 55% of the world population worships Jesus and Muhammad. Are all those people wrong and only Jews are right?

At one time, the whole world worshiped rocks and trees and idols, and only Jews worshiped the One God. We have always been a remnant in the world. Why should now be any different? That monotheism has spread as a result of our sacred texts is a testimony to our being a light to the nations.

 

[Trailblazer]

The only downside to this way of living is that the mental health authorities get worried and put a label on you as suffering from persistent delusional disorder when all you are trying to do is truth discovery and truth accommodation. I have been asked to take antipsychotic medication risperidone (6 mg daily) and anti-depressant medication sertraline (100 mg daily) to temper my urge for truth as I see it. I take the medications or else the State will incarcerate me in a mental hospital for non-cooperation with the State Psychiatrist.

But for me there is no other way of living because by exposing truth I am bringing God out into the open for me to see and that makes me happy.

I used to go to counselors and psychologists and even psychiatrists, but I stopped going about five years ago, because they were not helping me. It was when I finally turned my life over to God that I started to get help. I do not think that was a mere coincidence.

I still have some psychological problems and some of them will probably be with me until I die, but I am much better off now than ever before. Many decades ago I was on antidepressants and anti-anxiety drugs and I had less stress than I do now. Now I have much more stress and I handle it better without any drugs at all. It is not just turning to God, but it is also because I now have people I can talk to on these forums and that helps me work things out in my own mind.

There is nothing "crazy" about believing in God and putting God above everything else in life, but people think you are crazy simply because they are so attached to the material world and they do not really believe there is anything else but this world. I cannot live like that because I know this world is just temporary and fleeting and God matters more than anything else. When I say God I mean truth because truth comes from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

IOW, you have no historical evidence of it. You are dependent on somehow how came a millennium later to make it up out of whole cloth.

You asked: Where do you get your information that Buddha straightened out the whole Oneness of God business? Not from any oral traditions eventually written down. Is it from your Baha'i texts?
I answered: Yes, it comes from the Baha'i texts.

As I said before, regarding what Buddha actually said there is no historical evidence that is reliable, so whatever Abdu'l-Baha said is as good as anything anyone else has said. I am not dependent upon it because it is not a burning issue for me. If it had been something I needed to know, Baha'u'llah would have revealed it.

 

[Shantanu]

There is nothing "crazy" about believing in God and putting God above everything else in life

I disagree. There is something very crazy about it.