Does it really matter if we believe in God?

[Trailblazer]

I disagree. There is something very crazy about it.

What is crazy about it?

 

[Shantanu]

What is crazy about it?

One must first look after one's belly for food, clothes to wear, a house to live in, and associated amenities like a computer, a car, and so forth before one should turn one's thoughts to God.

 

[Trailblazer]

One must first look after one's belly for food, clothes to wear, a house to live in, and associated amenities like a computer, a car, and so forth before one should turn one's thoughts to God.

I did not mean that literally, putting God above everything else. We have to take care of our basic needs. I meant putting God above the nonessential material things, things we do not need but only want.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I can agree with you on that, but the difference between the Baha’i Faith and all the other religions is that we actually HAVE a Messiah to look at

But you don't, and that's the point. You say he is the messiah, and that this is the messianic age, but hundreds of years after his death, one of the requirements of the messianic age, the cessation of war, STILL hasn't come true, much less is the messiah present and reigning.

You are doing the exact same that the Christians do: you (meaning all Baha'is) take the general idea of a messiah to come from Jews, but then you ditch our texts and replace them with your own. That doesn't cut the mustard. If you are going to take our idea of the messiah, you have to accept our texts, and you have to accept them at face value -- not twisting them out of context to clearly saying something other than what the prophets intended. You see, it doesn't really matter what your own scripture say, when they contradict the Hebrew prophets. I no more accept the Baha'i scriptures than I accept the New Testament. I already have the revelation that I need.

Well, I am glad to hear that because there is no reason for animal sacrifices.

I'm not sure if you understand what these sacrifices are. They are shared meals with God. If you get into a fight with your neighbor and want to reconcile, you might take over an apple pie, or if its really bad, it might mean asking him over for dinner. The sacrifices were EATEN, they were shared with Hashem. It was a beautiful symbol.

I did not say that prophecy HAS been fulfilled, I said it WILL be fulfilled during the Messianic Age.

So when it's fulfilled, THEN come and talk to me about the messiah.

I am sorry if I came down a little hard on you over the Messiah, this is the main bone of contention between Baha’is and Christians as well, for obvious reasons.

No worries. Our intensities waxes and wanes. It's all part of the joy of the dialogue.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I disagree. There is something very crazy about it.

I'm sorry, but psychologists and psychiatrists consider religious faith to be a very healthy part of someone's psyche. The only exception is if someone's faith is toxic, meaning that it lends to dysfunctionality in a person's life. That is almost never the case. Usually being a part of a religious leads to greater health, greater happiness, and longer life. In the case where a person is both mentally fragile and also religious, the religious faith almost always acts as a buffer against mental dysfunction, a kind of healing salve that non-religious patients do not have.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, of course Jews began trickling in back in the 19th century, at the beginning of the Zionist movement. But there was something special about 1948, because it acknowledged Israel as a national state. At any rate, the return of the Jews to Israel had nothing to do with the Baha'u'llah.

You can choose to believe that if you want to, and I will believe what I choose to believe. I do not want to argue about it, because obviously you have your mind made up and so do I, and neither one of us is going to change what we believe.

“Nowhere in the following verses does it say that every Jew on earth will return to Israel.”

But certainly it means the overwhelming majority. We are still in the process of the prophecy being fulfilled.

That is no doubt true. The prophecy has not been completely fulfilled yet because the Messianic Age has only begun.

“500,000 years is the length of the present universal cycle of religion, but there will be more than one age within this cycle.”

Like I said, 500,000 years is just nonsense. Modern humans have only existed for about 200,000 years so far.

Believe as you wish and I will believe as I wish. Nobody knows what the future holds except God, and it is not based upon the past, because with God all things are possible. We have entered a new era in history so things will never be the same as they were in the past.
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

But the coming of the messianic era will be totally unlike any other in the history of the world. It will have no precedent. And it will BE like no other epoch.

I can agree with that. That is why I said “we have entered a new era in history so things will never be the same as they were in the past.”

“It is also completely unrealistic to think that EVERYONE will recognize the Messianic Era.”

Actually THAT is much more feasible than that there will be no atheists, yet it is prophecies that every person will know God.

Everyone WILL recognize the Messianic Era after it is in full swing, but not at the very beginning, not before the important prophecies have been fulfilled and it is obvious to everyone that the world is vastly different than before.

Yes, there are prophecies that every person will know God, which means there will be no atheists, but nobody knows when that will occur. I believe it will be a gradual process, not a sudden event, because human behavior changes over time, not all at once.

You have to understand what Judaism is. First of all, we are NOT exclusivistic. Judaism by no means requires that others become Jews. In fact, we discourage conversion. But we believe that as a people we have been set aside as a priestly people, to be a light to the nations of the world. That RESPONSIBILITY is a great price to pay -- it means following 613 rules, most of which others don't need to follow. So when we say "chosen," you have to ask, "chosen for what?" Because honestly, as Tevye asks, "Once in a while, can't you choose someone else?"

This is not very different from what Baha’is believe. We are not exclusivist, since we accept all religions as being revealed by God. The Baha’i faith by no means requires that others become Baha’is. People can choose to convert but only if they want to. We are different from Judaism in that we spread the message of Baha’u’llah, but people have to choose for themselves to convert or not, there are no forced conversions.

The Baha’i Faith is also similar to Judaism in that we believe we are a light to the nations of the world:
Light to the World

You can say we think we are chosen if you want to but what chosen really means is that we CHOSE to recognize Baha’u’llah, and we bear a great responsibility that came with that choice.

It does not good to believe the Baha'i prophecies if they contradict the prophecies of the Tanakh, which say that the Messiah will be David. Who was David? The King of Israel. Sure the entire world will recognize his authority, as you say. But first and foremost he is David. If you accept the Jewish prophets, you must acknowledge this.

First, there are no Baha’i prophecies; we are interpreting the prophecies from the Bible and the Tanakh.

Second, that is only YOUR interpretation of what the prophets said, and it is only ONE possible interpretation, and as such I do not have to accept it. Christians do not accept it either, which demonstrates that there is MORE than one way that prophecies can be interpreted.

If you want to send me the prophecies of the Tanakh which say that the Messiah will be David I will tell you how I interpret them.

And what does it MEAN to be the King of Israel? What does it MEAN to be sitting on a throne? What will a King do? You have certain conceptions of what this means but Christians and Baha’is have different conceptions. Anyone can interpret scripture. Just because Jews have interpreted it a certain way since the beginning does not make it correct, not anymore than the Christians are right just because they have always believed a certain interpretation of the New Testament.

The only salient question is this: What makes your interpretation right and all the others wrong?

“Don’t you believe you have everything right, just like every religious adherent?”

Do you?

No, not everything, because there is a lot I do not know, but I believe I am right about Baha’u’llah being the return of Christ and the Messiah; otherwise I would not believe in Baha’u’llah, because that is what He claimed.

The finite mind cannot fathom an infinite God.

That is true, and that is an essential Baha’i belief.

At one time, the whole world worshiped rocks and trees and idols, and only Jews worshiped the One God. We have always been a remnant in the world. Why should now be any different? That monotheism has spread as a result of our sacred texts is a testimony to our being a light to the nations.

I do not question that monotheism originated with Judaism, but the reason that monotheism continued to spread was because of Christianity and Islam; as the result of Jesus and Muhammad. Why is it that Christians can recognize Moses and Muslims can recognize Jesus and Moses as Messengers of God/Prophets, but Jews cannot recognize any prophets that have come after Moses? As I recall a Jews on a forum once telling me, there was something in their scriptures about a “last prophet.” Besides, you are waiting for the Messiah there is no need for a prophet to fulfill any of the prophecies. The thing is that a Prophet and a Messenger of God and a Manifestation of God are the same as the Messiah, they are just different ways to refer to the same individual that was predicted in the prophecies.

 

[Pudding]

The material world is things that you can buy with money and things that you can do for entertainment or pleasure, things we might enjoy but things that are not lasting because they are here today and gone tomorrow.

So a cell phone or a car or a boat or a house is the material world. We might need a car and a house and a cell phone but we do not need a new one all the time, and we do not need a boat. There is nothing wrong with these things as long as one is not attached to them but most people are attached to them. Time is limited, as is money, so what people spend their time and money on is a good indicator of what they are attached to. Most people spend their time and money on material things and activities.

That is a big question. I would say it is knowledge of God, awareness of God, and nearness to God, and living according to what God has enjoined us to do through the teachings of the great religions, living to do good works and help other people as opposed to selfish pursuits.

Thanks for explain.

Thanks for pointing that out. Perhaps I should have said Me.

However, to be entirely accurate, the scriptures do not admonish only Me. The scriptures were addressing all of humanity so they admonish all of US to do these things.

But I am not saying that other people should do these things just because the scriptures of my religion enjoin all of US to do them. That is why I am not speaking for what other people should do.

No, if you only want to speak for yourself you should only mention yourself in your religious claims.

Quoting scriptures which say that "all humanity should do something because God says so", the correct way to use it to only speak for yourself is say that "scriptures says i should do so as God says so", not "we should do so as God says so". When you use the plural noun "we" when you talking to other people, that'll include the people you're talking to.

If you didn't meant to speak for other people, and didn't meant to say that other people should do this and do that because your religion says so, please don't include other people in your religious claims when you talk to other people.

All your sayings of "we should do this we should do that because your religion says so", now you say you didn't mean to speak for other people? You didn't meant to say that other people should do this and do that because your religion says so? Seriously? What are you meant to say when you says those words then?

All you do when you get caught up in semantics is create disharmony. I said we because literally it is we who are admonished to do these things, since the Revelation of Baha’u’llah was revealed for me and ALL the rest of humanity.

However, if people do not adhere to my scriptures, they are not bound by teachings and laws in scriptures they do not believe in, even though they were addressing ALL of humanity. We all have free will so belief has to be by choice. Anyone can reject what Baha’u’llah revealed if they want to.

Sophistry.

Quoting the specific scripture in their original words which says that "all humanity should do as your religion says" and further saying "because of what the scripture says, you believe you (not we) should do as your religion says", only then you're only speak for yourself.

But no, you want to talk to other people by saying "we should do this we should do that because your religion says so", and you want to say you only speak for yourself when you say that? Nah.

Things are, you want to proselytize your religion to other people, but pretend you aren't by saying you're only speak for yourself.

You are asking me to provide proof because you are asking me to demonstrate the truth or existence of God by evidence or argument. I told you that I cannot do that. We all have to prove that God exists to ourselves, if we want to believe in God. Nobody else can prove it to us.

Okay, i have some confusion about the word proof, you're right, i'm asking you to provide proof by doing that.

I see, we all have to prove that your religion's God exists to us by ourselves, if we want to believe in your religion's God. Nobody else can prove it to us other than ourselves. Well done, now you can continue to proselytize your religion and God's words without ever provide evidence to demonstrate that they're fact and your God does indeed exists. How convenience it is.

That's what a lot of other believers from some other religions do too. Make claims about their religions' Gods and expect all humanity to do as their Gods say. When ask for evidence to prove the validity of their Gods' existence, they then says they cannot prove their Gods exists to non-believer, non-believer have to prove it to them by themselves.

Okay, nevermind, forget my request in asking you to prove your God's existence to me. You cannot do that, just like all of those other believers who believe in their various kinds of different versions of Gods and some of them who also expect me to do as their Gods say.

Let's see how many religions and denominations out there.

• Christianity – 2.42 billion
  • Catholic Church – 1.285 billion
  • Protestantism – 920 million
    • Anglicanism – 85 million
  • Eastern Orthodox Church – 270 million
  • Oriental Orthodoxy – 80 million
  • Non-trinitarian Restorationism – 35 million
  • Independent Catholicism – 18 million
  • Minor branches – 3 million

And many more of other different versions of specific religions which believe in different versions of Gods which those Gods demands i must obey whatever they order me to do otherwise i will be punish in the invisible afterlife.

Sure, maybe i'll have to schedule my time to prove those thousands of different versions of Gods and your version of God exists to me, by myself. Who knows how to do that, probably like if i believe sincerely then their Gods or your God will responds to me; or i have to spend my time practice their/your religions' rituals in order to prove any God exists; or read millions of pages of their/your religions' versions of scriptures to prove any God exists.

Plan:
Year 2019:
May - June: Try to prove Southern Baptist's version of God's existence to me.
July - October: Try Catholic's version.
November - December: Try JW's version.
Year 2020: Try another one
Year 2021: Try another one.
...etc, keeps trying until i finally succesfully prove any version of God's existence to me.

I must do that, believe in and live for any God, otherwise i'll be punish in the invisible afterlife. Nah, not interested.

I do not try to convince anybody that God exists because that is not my job, not my responsibility. All I can do is point you to the evidence that indicates to me that God exists but then you have to do your own independent investigation of the evidence in order to determine if it constitutes evidence for you.

This is a religious debate forum. You want to make claims about your religion's God and says we should live for your God, the burden of proof lies to you to support your religious claims. I'm not interested in rhetorical answer that i should spend my time to prove your God's existence by myself. You make the claims, you prove it.

Same apply to other believers who believe in different versions of Gods.

I have evidence that indicates (not proves) that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, which means that God manifested Himself, which means that God exists.

Thanks for explain.

 

[Pudding]

I never said it was a fact, it is a belief. As such, it could be true or false. Everyone has to determine if it is true or false if they want to know.

I do not want to convince you because that is not my job. If you want to know, you have to convince yourself. I can point you to the evidence and then you would have to investigate it yourself. For example, if you want to know if Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, you could start by reading an introductory book such as this one, which is one of the first Baha’i books I ever read: Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

You said "God does not need anything from humans, He just wants what is best for them. What is best for us is to sacrifice our selfish desires for the good of other people".

You believe it's fact, don't you? Now i understand, you don't believe it's fact, you believe it's a belief??? Thanks for clarify...

Now, i'm not interested in playing hide and seek with any God... I'll not read any religions' books to prove any God's existence. If any God want me to do this and do that who knows what they wants me to do, they come out directly and say it out loud to me, i don't accept any middle man to speak for any God what any God wants me to do, especially when there're a lot of religion's con men exposing all over the world.

When I said “we” I was referring to humans collectively, humanity as a whole, and what humanity is enjoined to do according to what Baha’u’llah wrote, but I understand that YOU do not want to be included and I understand why.

Nope, already cover in my above reply. You want to proselytize but pretend you're only speak for yourself.

A first step would be to understand what is more fulfilling and then you would need to understand why it is more fulfilling. Then you would need to experience it in order to realize that it is more fulfilling. These things are all explained in the scriptures of my religion.

I can only describe my own experiences, what I was like before I decided the God mattered more than my selfish desires and what it is like for me now that I have realized that doing what God has enjoined me to do is better for me than what I was doing before that. I did once live for the “things of the world” although I was never that attached to them because I always knew there was something better. I just did not know how to go about changing, until about six years ago. It has been a process of change since that time and I still have a long way to go. Spiritual growth is never ending. But I had to sacrifice certain things before I could begin my journey, because they were getting in my way.

If it works for you, makes you happy and a better person, good for you.

Like i say, if any God wants me to do as their says, all of them have to speak it directly to me, i do not accept any God's middle man.

From my perspective, the only way you could ever realize that it does matter is if you realized that God exists, but you would have to want to know and you would have to do some investigation. Everything we do has to have a start somewhere. And there has to be a motivation, a desire to change.

No, i'm not interested in knowing if any God exists. If any God indeed does exist, and they want me to know them, they then show up and introduce themselves directly to me. If they don't want to show up, then whatever, they can continue to live in who knows wherever they are living in and do whatever who knows what they wish to do to themselves.

Some investigation you say? Sure, i should spending my entire life to investigate whether or not those hundreds and thounsands of Gods and gods exists as real being. Nah, not interested, excuse me.

The reason I talk about God as if God is a fact is because I am sure God exists, so it is a fact to ME. But I certainly do not it expect it to be a fact to YOU or to anyone else. I know you are a non-believer, but all non-believers are not the same. I do not know why you are a non-believer or if you were ever a believer. It would help if I understood a little about your background.

I'm a non-believer because i haven't been convince to believe any religion's God indeed does exist as real being.

I am sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable. For most of my life I was a believer with little conviction but I suffered a lot to get to where I am today so now I have a lot of conviction, certitude that my beliefs are in fact true. But I certainly do not expect others to share my certitude,

Don't be sorry, it's fine.

this is something we all come to or don’t come to, on our own. Belief in God is a very personal thing.

Not sure what to response to this and what you means to say.

Some of them might worry, if they actually cared about me, but some believers do not really care about other people as long as they know (or believe) that they are saved and will go to heaven. I care about everyone, and I want to see that everyone experiences a good afterlife.

Okay, understood.

I worry more about atheists because they are more at risk than people of other religions who already believe in God.

I see, you believe atheists are more at risk than people of other unknown religions who already believe in unknown religion's version of God.

Do you want to convince me to believe what you believe is fact? If you do, then please provide evidence to backup your claims, thank you.

If you're just sharing your opinion, then just forget it. And please don't expect me to take your religious claims seriously if you don't want or cannot prove the validity of your claims, thank you.

I understand how these conversations can be tiring because I have them with many people every day on more than one forum, and this is what I do in all my spare time because I consider it very important. But I have to say that I have not had the occasion to meet a nonbeliever that is as courteous and sincere as you are very often, even though I post almost exclusively to nonbelievers.

Thank you for the kind words. I hope it's not a sarcasm, by the way. Bye.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You can choose to believe that if you want to, and I will believe what I choose to believe. I do not want to argue about it, because obviously you have your mind made up and so do I, and neither one of us is going to change what we believe.

Yes, I think we ARE starting to repeat ourselves, which is a good sign that the value of the discussion has reached its end. My parting thought is that some interpretation are abundantly superior. If you ask scholars who are, for example, secular (IOW they have no dog in the race), they will tell us the Jewish version of the story. However, I know that you will never accept this.

And really, that's okay. Like I said going in, you worship God, and you act rightly, and that's what it's really all about.

 

[Trailblazer]

“I can agree with you on that, but the difference between the Baha’i Faith and all the other religions is that we actually HAVE a Messiah to look at.”

But you don't, and that's the point. You say he is the messiah, and that this is the messianic age, but hundreds of years after his death, one of the requirements of the messianic age, the cessation of war, STILL hasn't come true, much less is the messiah present and reigning.

It is not hundreds of years, it is 127 years, since Baha'u'llah died in 1892.. These are your expectations; that world peace would happen during the lifetime of the Messiah or not long after the death of the Messiah. That exact time frame is not stated in ANY scripture. An age is a distinct period of history and it could be short but normally it is hundreds of years, a thousand years, or even longer.

You are doing the exact same that the Christians do: you (meaning all Baha'is) take the general idea of a messiah to come from Jews, but then you ditch our texts and replace them with your own. That doesn't cut the mustard. If you are going to take our idea of the messiah, you have to accept our texts, and you have to accept them at face value -- not twisting them out of context to clearly saying something other than what the prophets intended. You see, it doesn't really matter what your own scripture say, when they contradict the Hebrew prophets. I no more accept the Baha'i scriptures than I accept the New Testament. I already have the revelation that I need.

No, the idea of the Messiah did not come from the Jews:

Zoroastrianism which is the original religion of Persia or what is now Iran, is rich with many ideas concerning the end times and the coming of the chosen or future deliverer. A hugely influential religion, it is believed that the Jewish idea of the Messiah is derived from the earlier Zoroastrian notion of the Saoshyant. Zoroastrian ideas for the end times seem to have made their way not only into Judaism but also Christianity and Islam.

Who is the Saoshyant?

Below is a prophecy for the Coming of the Saoshyant or Zoroastrian Messiah. Or rather that the Messiah is the Jewish version of the Saoshyant as the Zoroastrians had the idea of the future chosen one first.

'He shall be the victorious Benefactor (Saoshyant) by name and World-renovator [Astavat-ereta] by name. He is Benefactor because he will benefit the entire physical world; he is World- renovator because he will establish the physical living existence indestructible. He will oppose the evil of the progeny of the biped and withstand the enmity produced by the faithful.' - Zoroastrianism- Avesta, Farvardin Yast 13.129
Zoroastrian Prophecies for the Coming of the Saoshyant​

“, and you have to accept them at face value -- not twisting them out of context to clearly saying something other than what the prophets intended.”

And what it all boils down to is INTERPRETATION. You think you know what the prophets intended (meant) and nobody else does. But there is no reason to think that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Whenever a text can have more than one meaning, it is up for grabs.

The Baha’i Faith does not contradict the Hebrew prophets; rather, Baha’u’llah was a fulfillment of what they prophesied. What was prophesied has all come to pass and everything else will come to pass during the Messianic Age.

So when it's fulfilled, THEN come and talk to me about the messiah.

Obviously, we will not both be alive because an age is a lot longer than one human lifetime.
I just found this on Wikipedia, and I assume it was written by a Baha’i:

In the Bahá'í Faith, the "Messianic Age" refers to a 1000-year period beginning with the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in 1863. Bahá'ís believe the period of peace and prosperity is gradually unfolding and will culminate in the appearance of "The Most Great Peace".
Messianic Age - Wikipedia​

 

[Trailblazer]

My parting thought is that some interpretation are abundantly superior. If you ask scholars who are, for example, secular (IOW they have no dog in the race), they will tell us the Jewish version of the story. However, I know that you will never accept this.

My parting thought is that God is the only one who knows what these scriptures were intended to mean. They can have many meanings, but a Manifestation of God who is a Representative of God is uniquely qualified to know all the meanings and the most accurate meaning.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

 

[Trailblazer]

No, if you only want to speak for yourself you should only mention yourself in your religious claims.

Quoting scriptures which say that "all humanity should do something because God says so", the correct way to use it to only speak for yourself is say that "scriptures says i should do so as God says so", not "we should do so as God says so". When you use the plural noun "we" when you talking to other people, that'll include the people you're talking to.

If you didn't meant to speak for other people, and didn't meant to say that other people should do this and do that because your religion says so, please don't include other people in your religious claims when you talk to other people.

All your sayings of "we should do this we should do that because your religion says so", now you say you didn't mean to speak for other people? You didn't meant to say that other people should do this and do that because your religion says so? Seriously? What are you meant to say when you says those words then?

What I said was “The scriptures were addressing all of humanity so they admonish all of US (humanity) to do these things.” I did not say “all of humanity should do them because God says so.” Humanity can choose to do what the scriptures say or not. We all have a choice.

That is not the same as ME saying that WE should do these things, because I did not write the scriptures. I am simply relaying what the scriptures say.

But I agree I should use the word *I* and not *we* when I am talking about what *I believe* I should do. YOU are not a believer so you are not required to do what my scriptures say.

Okay, i have some confusion about the word proof, you're right, i'm asking you to provide proof by doing that.

I see, we all have to prove that your religion's God exists to us by ourselves, if we want to believe in your religion's God. Nobody else can prove it to us other than ourselves. Well done, now you can continue to proselytize your religion and God's words without ever provide evidence to demonstrate that they're fact and your God does indeed exists. How convenience it is.

Whatever gave you the idea that I am are responsible to prove things to other people. This is not a court of law where there is a burden of proof because I am not TRYING to prove anything.

That's what a lot of other believers from some other religions do too. Make claims about their religions' Gods and expect all humanity to do as their Gods say. When ask for evidence to prove the validity of their Gods' existence, they then says they cannot prove their Gods exists to non-believer, non-believer have to prove it to them by themselves.

Okay, nevermind, forget my request in asking you to prove your God's existence to me. You cannot do that, just like all of those other believers who believe in their various kinds of different versions of Gods and some of them who also expect me to do as their Gods say.

Nobody ever proved anything to me; I did my own research and investigation. If someone proved it to me it would not be my own belief, it would be their belief, because it was their evidence that indicated something to them, not MY evidence that indicated something to me.
I do not expect any nonbeliever to do as God says, not unless they believe in God, and even then it is between that person and God.

Let's see how many religions and denominations out there.

· Christianity – 2.42 billion
o Catholic Church – 1.285 billion
o Protestantism – 920 million
§ Anglicanism – 85 million
o Eastern Orthodox Church – 270 million
o Oriental Orthodoxy – 80 million
o Non-trinitarian Restorationism – 35 million
o Independent Catholicism – 18 million
o Minor branches – 3 million

And many more of other different versions of specific religions which believe in different versions of Gods which those Gods demands i must obey whatever they order me to do otherwise i will be punish in the invisible afterlife.

Sure, maybe i'll have to schedule my time to prove those thousands of different versions of Gods and your version of God exists to me, by myself. Who knows how to do that, probably like if i believe sincerely then their Gods or your God will responds to me; or i have to spend my time practice their/your religions' rituals in order to prove any God exists; or read millions of pages of their/your religions' versions of scriptures to prove any God exists.

Plan:
Year 2019:
May - June: Try to prove Southern Baptist's version of God's existence to me.
July - October: Try Catholic's version.
November - December: Try JW's version.
Year 2020: Try another one
Year 2021: Try another one.
...etc, keeps trying until i finally succesfully prove any version of God's existence to me.

I must do that, believe in and live for any God, otherwise i'll be punish in the invisible afterlife. Nah, not interested.

You made that all up in your own head. There is no such requirement. You do not have to look at every religion or denomination. If you want to look you have to start somewhere but you have to find a way to narrow it down, you cannot look at everything. If you were interested in my religion I could tell you what to read and you could start by reading that, and if you were still interested you could read more.

I do not believe in a punishment in the afterlife, that is a Christian belief. I believe that any punishment would be the realization of what one could have believed in this life and the regret over the loss, since one dies and they can no longer choose.

This is a religious debate forum. You want to make claims about your religion's God and says we should live for your God, the burden of proof lies to you to support your religious claims. I'm not interested in rhetorical answer that i should spend my time to prove your God's existence by myself. You make the claims, you prove it.

I never *claimed* that God exists, I said *I believe* that God exists. There is a difference. I am not going to make a claim I cannot prove, but I can believe it because I have proved it to myself.

I never said that YOU should live for my God; I only ever said that I try to live for my God and my religion teaches that humans should live for God rather than self.

You need to ask yourself why the burden of proof rests on me. Do you realize how ridiculous it is to ask me to prove such a thing as *God exists* on a forum? The proof is not something that can be presented in a post on a forum. The proof is in books people have to read for themselves because what I say about them is just second hand information, my interpretation.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said "God does not need anything from humans, He just wants what is best for them. What is best for us is to sacrifice our selfish desires for the good of other people".

You believe it's fact, don't you? Now i understand, you don't believe it's fact, you believe it's a belief??? Thanks for clarify...

It is what I believe. I cannot prove it so it is not a fact. Facts can be proven.

Now, i'm not interested in playing hide and seek with any God... I'll not read any religions' books to prove any God's existence. If any God want me to do this and do that who knows what they wants me to do, they come out directly and say it out loud to me, i don't accept any middle man to speak for any God what any God wants me to do, especially when there're a lot of religion's con men exposing all over the world.

Fine then, you are going to be waiting a long time, try forever, because God soe not speak directly to anyone except His chosen Messengers/Prophets.

Moreover, just because many prophets are false that does not mean that there are no True Prophets. That is illogical since it is the fallacy of hasty generalization.

Nope, already cover in my above reply. You want to proselytize but pretend you're only speak for yourself.

Show me where I was proselytizing. I simply posted a thread and then you started to ask me questions about God. That is what usually happens and then I get accused of proselytizing when I have no interest in convincing or converting anyone to my religion.

If it works for you, makes you happy and a better person, good for you.

Like i say, if any God wants me to do as their says, all of them have to speak it directly to me, i do not accept any God's middle man.

Like I said, that is never going to happen, because God does not speak to anyone directly, except His chosen Messengers/Prophets.

No, i'm not interested in knowing if any God exists. If any God indeed does exist, and they want me to know them, they then show up and introduce themselves directly to me. If they don't want to show up, then whatever, they can continue to live in who knows wherever they are living in and do whatever who knows what they wish to do to themselves.

You are not going to hurt God by NOT believing in Him, because God does not need your belief. God might want you to know Him for your own sake, but God does not need you to know Him, because God is fully self-sufficient, above having any needs.

God does not barter with humans. God ONLY communicates through Messengers and if people reject them they will never know anything about God. That is how it works and you cannot control an omnipotent God and make Him do anything differently.

Some investigation you say? Sure, i should spending my entire life to investigate whether or not those hundreds and thousands of Gods and gods exists as real being. Nah, not interested, excuse me.

That is a good excuse not to look at any religion, because there are so many. All nonbelievers who became believers had to start somewhere.

I'm a non-believer because i haven't been convince to believe any religion's God indeed does exist as real being.

Okay, but were you brought up as a nonbeliever, and what religions have you looked at?

“this is something we all come to or don’t come to, on our own. Belief in God is a very personal thing.”

Not sure what to response to this and what you means to say.

It means that belief is something we have to come to on our own, but other people can help us.

"I worry more about atheists because they are more at risk than people of other religions who already believe in God."

I see, you believe atheists are more at risk than people of other unknown religions who already believe in unknown religion's version of God.

I do not know what you mean by *unknown religions.” If a person believes in the God of a true religion then they believe in the One True God. It is better to believe in the most current religion of God, but it is still the same God they believe in.

Do you want to convince me to believe what you believe is fact? If you do, then please provide evidence to backup your claims, thank you.

If you're just sharing your opinion, then just forget it. And please don't expect me to take your religious claims seriously if you don't want or cannot prove the validity of your claims, thank you.

You already told me that you are not going to believe in any religion, that you expect God to show up and speak to you directly, so why would I present any evidence for my religion?

 

[Pudding]

What I said was “The scriptures were addressing all of humanity so they admonish all of US (humanity) to do these things.” I did not say “all of humanity should do them because God says so.” Humanity can choose to do what the scriptures say or not. We all have a choice.

That is not the same as ME saying that WE should do these things, because I did not write the scriptures. I am simply relaying what the scriptures say.

But I agree I should use the word *I* and not *we* when I am talking about what *I believe* I should do. YOU are not a believer so you are not required to do what my scriptures say.

Look back at what you say previously:

I question whether personal happiness is what we should be living for. Since I believe in God I think there is a higher purpose for our existence than just to eat, drink and be merry and enjoy the physical pleasures.

We should not living for our personal happiness? What should we living for then?

I do not speak for what other people should do but rather I speak only about what I think I should do. I do not think that personal happiness is a worthwhile goal, given the scriptures of my religion admonish us to surrender self and seek and perpetual union with God,regarding our personal desires as utter nothingness aside from God’s Purpose for us.

You said you question whether personal happiness is what we (not you) should be living for, you further say that you believe there is a higher purpose for our (not your) existence which is related to your God. You do imply we should not be living for our personal happiness, instead, we should live for the higher purpose which probably giving by your God.

When i ask you "We should not living for our personal happiness? What should we living for then?", you then change your mind and say that you're not speaking for other people, you only speak for what you think you should do, and say your religion's scriptures admonish us to surrender self and seek and perpetual union with God,regarding our personal desires as utter nothingness aside from God’s Purpose for us, as a reason to support your previous statement that:

I question whether personal happiness is what we (not i) should be living for. Since I believe in God I think there is a higher purpose for our (not my) existence than just to eat, drink and be merry and enjoy the physical pleasures.

As explain above, you do not only speak for yourself. You speak for other people. You imply we should not live for our personal happiness but we should live for your religion's God’s purpose for us because your religion's book says so.

Case closed.

Whatever gave you the idea that I am are responsible to prove things to other people. This is not a court of law where there is a burden of proof because I am not TRYING to prove anything.

This is a religious debate forum, people debate about religious matters here. They lays out their claims about religions and Gods here, present evidence to demonstarte that their claims are correct and fact. Their debate opponent then debate with them about the correctness of their religious claims.

You want to say that we should not live for our personal happiness instead we should live for your God's purpose for us. You make the religious claims, you're responsible to prove its validity to other people here if you want to debate with them about the correctness of your religious statement here.

If you don't want to debate about religious matters in here what're you doing here? You're here to proselytize? If you're not proselytize then you have to prove your religious claims to other people, especially when your religious claims are closely related to other people.

Nobody ever proved anything to me; I did my own research and investigation. If someone proved it to me it would not be my own belief, it would be their belief, because it was their evidence that indicated something to them, not MY evidence that indicated something to me.
I do not expect any nonbeliever to do as God says, not unless they believe in God, and even then it is between that person and God.

You do expect non-believers to do as your God says. You question whether personal happiness is what we should be living for, say that since you believe in God you think there is a higher purpose for our existence than living for our personal happiness, you then further say that your religion's book support your religious claims.

You made that all up in your own head. There is no such requirement. You do not have to look at every religion or denomination.

No, i didn't made that up. It's fact that a lot of abrahamic religions threaten me (non-members) with punishment if i don't obey their religion's version of God, and often expect me to investigate everyone of them respectively. If i become a member to one of them, a lot of them i do not join will still says i should investigate their respective religion because only their religion is the true religion.

Also, i haven't say that i have to look at every religion or denomination, just that hypothetically i have to look at all of those religions who demands me to do as their Gods say, and try to prove their Gods one by one until i success, only if i wish to do so.

If you want to look you have to start somewhere but you have to find a way to narrow it down, you cannot look at everything. If you were interested in my religion I could tell you what to read and you could start by reading that, and if you were still interested you could read more.

No, i don't want to look, i'm not interested to look. The scenario i mention previously is to illustrate the ridiculous demands from all of those religions who demands me to obey their Gods and become a member to their respective religion otherwise i'll be punish in the afterlife.

I do mention "Nah, not interested" to end the paragragh.

I do not believe in a punishment in the afterlife, that is a Christian belief. I believe that any punishment would be the realization of what one could have believed in this life and the regret over the loss, since one dies and they can no longer choose.

Fine, you still want to threatening non-believer to believe in and obey your religion's God by saying there is punishment and loss in this life, and say that they'll regret one day. That's what a lot of those other believers says too, we'll regret if we don't obey their respective version of God.

Please continue to threatening non-believers there're bad consequences for them if they don't live for your God or any God, and says that you don't have to prove to them what you say is fact. Instead they have to help you to prove what you say is fact by themselves.

Meh.

I never *claimed* that God exists, I said *I believe* that God exists. There is a difference. I am not going to make a claim I cannot prove, but I can believe it because I have proved it to myself.

I never said that YOU should live for my God; I only ever said that I try to live for my God and my religion teaches that humans should live for God rather than self.

You need to ask yourself why the burden of proof rests on me. Do you realize how ridiculous it is to ask me to prove such a thing as *God exists* on a forum? The proof is not something that can be presented in a post on a forum. The proof is in books people have to read for themselves because what I say about them is just second hand information, my interpretation.

You do imply that we should live for your God:

I question whether personal happiness is what we (not i) should be living for. Since I believe in God I think there is a higher purpose for our (not my) existence than just to eat, drink and be merry and enjoy the physical pleasures.

 

[Pudding]

It is what I believe. I cannot prove it so it is not a fact. Facts can be proven.

The conversation have becoming a little weird.

What i know is, you want to make a lot of claims about your God and all of humanity. Like, "we should live for your God, your God wants what is best for us, what is best for us is to sacrifice our selfish desires".

You cannot prove your claims are fact, but still want to continue to make those same bold empty claims in here. That's really weird.

Fine then, you are going to be waiting a long time, try forever, because God soe not speak directly to anyone except His chosen Messengers/Prophets.

Moreover, just because many prophets are false that does not mean that there are no True Prophets. That is illogical since it is the fallacy of hasty generalization.

Fishy.

Maybe i'll also have to wait forever to see Flying Spaghetti Monster directly shows himself up in front of me, because Flying Spaghetti Monster also does not speak directly to anyone except His chosen middle man. Nope, just joking.

I'm not impress with your bold empty claims.

Meh, i'm not waiting for any deity. I cannot waiting for anyone of them when i don't even believe in their existence.

Show me where I was proselytizing. I simply posted a thread and then you started to ask me questions about God. That is what usually happens and then I get accused of proselytizing when I have no interest in convincing or converting anyone to my religion.

You say we should not live for our personal happiness but we should live for your God because your religion says so. You say it does matter if we believe in your God because your religion says so. You threatening us there is bad consequences if we don't live for your God...etc.

That is proselytizing, you want non-believers to become your religion's members.

Like I said, that is never going to happen, because God does not speak to anyone directly, except His chosen Messengers/Prophets.

Bold empty claims.

You are not going to hurt God by NOT believing in Him, because God does not need your belief.

I haven't say i'm hurting any God (whose existence i don't believe in) by not believing in them.

God might want you to know Him for your own sake, but God does not need you to know Him, because God is fully self-sufficient, above having any needs.

God does not barter with humans. God ONLY communicates through Messengers and if people reject them they will never know anything about God. That is how it works and you cannot control an omnipotent God and make Him do anything differently.

Bold empty claims.

That is a good excuse not to look at any religion, because there are so many. All nonbelievers who became believers had to start somewhere.

Good excuse? Why should i have to investigate whether or not any God exists when i'm not interested about it. I repeat, I'm not interested.

Okay, but were you brought up as a nonbeliever, and what religions have you looked at?

I don't know what's the point you asking that. I'm not interested to answer that.

It means that belief is something we have to come to on our own, but other people can help us.

Thanks for explain.

I do not know what you mean by *unknown religions.”

Because you haven't specify which religion you're referring to. So, it's unknown to me which religion you're referring to.

If a person believes in the God of a true religion then they believe in the One True God. It is better to believe in the most current religion of God, but it is still the same God they believe in.

Bold empty claims.

You already told me that you are not going to believe in any religion, that you expect God to show up and speak to you directly, so why would I present any evidence for my religion?

Right, you cannot prove it's a fact that "atheists are more at risk than people of other unknown religions who already believe in unknown religion's version of God".

That means your religious claim is bold empty claim and bold empty threat.




Every discussion have to end eventually, I'm done with this discussion, i'm not going to read your further replies to my post in this thread, otherwise i'll have to reply to you and it'll become a non-stop cycle. So, thanks for the conversation, goodbye.

 

[Trailblazer]

As explain above, you do not only speak for yourself. You speak for other people. You imply we should not live for our personal happiness but we should live for your religion's God’s purpose for us because your religion's book says so.

Case closed.

I do not care what I said before, every day is a new day for me, and think it is childish to argue about what I said yesterday or the day before. I am a Baha’i so I speak for what I think “we” -- meaning humanity – should be living for, because I believe that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God who had the Authority God gave Him to speak about what humanity should be living for. I do imply that “we” – meaning humanity -- should live for God’s purpose for us because my religion's book says so.

I have a right to believe that because I have free will and you have a right to reject it because you have free will.

Case closed.

This is a religious debate forum, people debate about religious matters here. They lays out their claims about religions and Gods here, present evidence to demonstrate that their claims are correct and fact. Their debate opponent then debate with them about the correctness of their religious claims.

You want to say that we should not live for our personal happiness instead we should live for your God's purpose for us. You make the religious claims, you're responsible to prove its validity to other people here if you want to debate with them about the correctness of your religious statement here.

If you don't want to debate about religious matters in here what're you doing here? You're here to proselytize? If you're not proselytize then you have to prove your religious claims to other people, especially when your religious claims are closely related to other people.

Do you see everyone on this forum debating and trying to prove their religion is true? I don’t see that. Sometimes they do, but not always.

I am not here to debate. I am not trying to prove anything to anybody. I just share what I believe when people ask, but I cannot PROVE that God exists or that my religion is true.

You do expect non-believers to do as your God says. You question whether personal happiness is what we should be living for, say that since you believe in God you think there is a higher purpose for our existence than living for our personal happiness, you then further say that your religion's book support your religious claims.

No, I do not expect nonbelievers to do as my God says because they do not believe in God. I have no expectations of anyone I only said what I believe that God wants for us, but God does not expect everyone to adhere to the teachings of my religion because they are not Baha’is.

No, i didn't made that up. It's fact that a lot of abrahamic religions threaten me (non-members) with punishment if i don't obey their religion's version of God, and often expect me to investigate everyone of them respectively. If i become a member to one of them, a lot of them i do not join will still saysi should investigate their respective religion because only their religion is the true religion.

Also, i haven't say that i have to look at every religion or denomination, just that hypothetically i have to look at all of those religions who demands me to do as their Gods say, and try to prove their Gods one by one until i success, only if i wish to do so.

I understand that other Abrahamic religious believers have expected you to investigate their claims and a lot of Abrahamic religious believers have threaten you (non-members) with punishment if you don't obey their religion's version of God. But I am not the same as those other Abrahamic religious believers. I do not expect anything and I am not threatening anything. I am just sharing what I believe and what I believe God wants for humanity. Any part of humanity can reject it if they choose to because we all have free will.

Yes, you have a choice whether or not to look at all the religions and try to prove their Gods because you have free will.

No, i don't want to look, i'm not interested to look. The scenario i mention previously is to illustrate the ridiculous demands from all of those religions who demands me to obey their Gods and become a member to their respective religion otherwise i'll be punish in the afterlife.

I do mention "Nah, not interested" to end the paragragh.

It is a ridiculous demand to tell you that you have to look at all the religions obey their Gods and become a member in order to avoid punishment in the afterlife.

“I do not believe in a punishment in the afterlife, that is a Christian belief. I believe that any punishment would be the realization of what one could have believed in this life and the regret over the loss, since one dies and they can no longer choose.”

Fine, you still want to threatening non-believer to believe in and obey your religion's God by saying there is punishment and loss in this life, and say that they'll regret one day. That's what a lot of those other believers says too, we'll regret if we don't obey their respective version of God.

Please continue to threatening non-believers there're bad consequences for them if they don't live for your God or any God, and says that you don't have to prove to them what you say is fact. Instead they have to help you to prove what you say is fact by themselves.

Meh.

Saying that you might regret it someday is not a threat, you just took it as a threat.

I did not say my belief is a fact. Beliefs are not facts. They can still be true though.

Why shouldn’t people prove it to themselves? If you took a college class, would your teacher do your homework?

 

[Trailblazer]

The conversation have becoming a little weird.

What i know is, you want to make a lot of claims about your God and all of humanity. Like, "we should live for your God, your God wants what is best for us, what is best for us is to sacrifice our selfish desires".

You cannot prove your claims are fact, but still want to continue to make those same bold empty claims in here. That's really weird.

The only thing I did was say what my religion teaches that God wants for humanity to do. It is not weird to have a belief that cannot be proven as a fact. What is weird is to think that a religious belief could ever be proven like a scientific fact.

Maybe i'll also have to wait forever to see Flying Spaghetti Monster directly shows himself up in front of me, because Flying Spaghetti Monster also does not speak directly to anyone except His chosen middle man. Nope, just joking.

I'm not impress with your bold empty claims.

I know how you feel about all this. After all, I have been posting almost exclusively to nonbelievers for over five years.

Meh, i'm not waiting for any deity. I cannot waiting for anyone of them when i don't even believe in their existence.

I know that. My point was that apparently the only way you will accept for a deity to communicate is directly to you. I have been down this road too, many times before

You say we should not live for our personal happiness but we should live for your God because your religion says so. You say it does matter if we believe in your God because your religion says so. You threatening us there is bad consequences if we don't live for your God...etc.

That is proselytizing, you want non-believers to become your religion's members.

I am not threatening anyone with anything. I am only telling you what *I believe.* If what I believe is true, it only makes sense that if you reject it you might regret it if you realize that after you die.

That is absolutely not true. I do not want you or any other nonbelievers to become a member of my religion. If I did, I would be trying to convince you it is true by lambasting you with evidence, and believe me, I have a lot of evidence.

“Like I said, that is never going to happen, because God does not speak to anyone directly, except His chosen Messengers/Prophets.”

Bold empty claims.

It is not a claim, it is a reality. Do you know anyone that God has spoken to directly?

I haven't say i'm hurting any God (whose existence i don't believe in) by not believing in them.

Well good, I am glad you realize that.

“God does not barter with humans. God ONLY communicates through Messengers and if people reject them they will never know anything about God. That is how it works and you cannot control an omnipotent God and make Him do anything differently.”
Bold empty claims.

No, they are beliefs that have evidence to support them.

“That is a good excuse not to look at any religion, because there are so many. All nonbelievers who became believers had to start somewhere.”

Good excuse? Why should i have to investigate whether or not any God exists when i'm not interested about it. I repeat, I'm not interested.

Okay then, I don’t know why we are talking about God.

“I do not know what you mean by *unknown religions.””

Because you haven't specify which religion you're referring to. So, it's unknown to me which religion you're referring to.

The religion I belong to is called the Baha’i Faith.

“If a person believes in the God of a true religion then they believe in the One True God. It is better to believe in the most current religion of God, but it is still the same God they believe in.”
Bold empty claims.

No, just logic. Why believe in an older religion that was revealed for people who lived thousands of years ago when there is a new religion?

Right, you cannot prove it's a fact that "atheists are more at risk than people of other unknown religions who already believe in unknown religion's version of God".

That means your religious claim is bold empty claim and bold empty threat.

No, I cannot prove it, but logically speaking, that does not mean it is not true. It could be true or false. You can decide which you think it is, but it is rather foolish to decide without even looking at it first.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

Every discussion have to end eventually, I'm done with this discussion, i'm not going to read your further replies to my post in this thread, otherwise i'll have to reply to you and it'll become a non-stop cycle. So, thanks for the conversation, goodbye.

Fine then, but I already wrote this before I read that so I am going to post it anyway since I do not like wasting what I take my time to write.

I am sorry if I upset you. I wish you all the best in your life journey.

 

[JJ50]

A belief in a god is ok, providing people don't force their belief on others.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@Pudding

My friend, I disagree with Trailblazer about many things. On the issue of seeking God rather than personal happiness, I have not researched the thread to find out what he actually said. I simply want to comment on the issue.

Our greatest happiness lies in loving God with all our heart, soul, and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Scientific research has reliably shown over and again that those who actively participate in religion (as measured by consistent participation in worship services) are happier. We are also healthier and longer lived, and have better mental health by and large.

 

[Trailblazer]

Scientific research has reliably shown over and again that those who actively participate in religion (as measured by consistent participation in worship services) are happier. We are also healthier and longer lived, and have better mental health by and large.

I would like to see that research. I agree that our greatest happiness lies in loving God with all our heart, soul, and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves; an actually, according to my beliefs we should prefer our brother to ourselves.

However, I do not understand why it is necessary to participate in worship services. Maybe that is beneficial for most people because most people are sociable, but not all people are, yet they can still love God and their neighbors and worship God. I am very uncomfortable praying or reading scriptures in a group setting, because I consider worship a private affair between me and God.