Does it really matter if we believe in God?

[IndigoChild5559]

I would like to see that research. I agree that our greatest happiness lies in loving God with all our heart, soul, and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves; an actually, according to my beliefs we should prefer our brother to ourselves.

However, I do not understand why it is necessary to participate in worship services. Maybe that is beneficial for most people because most people are sociable, but not all people are, yet they can still love God and their neighbors and worship God. I am very uncomfortable praying or reading scriptures in a group setting, because I consider worship a private affair between me and God.

Here are the statistics. Of course this assumes the religious group is a normal group, and not a toxic group that is controlling and fearful.

Are religious people happier, healthier? Our new global study explores this question

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Normally, if a religion had an impact upon religious history, it would have had an impact upon society, because the two cannot be separated.

Okay. So when you say 'religious history', what exactly do you mean?

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay. So when you say 'religious history', what exactly do you mean?

What I mean is history as it can be traced back to a religion. For example, Muhammad had a huge impact on civilization and that can be seen by looking at history.

“The Faith of Islám, the succeeding link in the chain of Divine Revelation, introduced, as Bahá’u’lláh Himself testifies, the conception of the nation as a unit and a vital stage in the organization of human society, and embodied it in its teaching. This indeed is what is meant by this brief yet highly significant and illuminating pronouncement of Bahá’u’lláh: “Of old [Islamic Dispensation] it hath been revealed: ‘Love of one’s country is an element of the Faith of God.’” This principle was established and stressed by the Apostle of God, inasmuch as the evolution of human society required it at that time. Nor could any stage above and beyond it have been envisaged, as world conditions preliminary to the establishment of a superior form of organization were as yet unobtainable. The conception of nationality, the attainment to the state of nationhood, may, therefore, be said to be the distinguishing characteristics of the MuHammadan Dispensation, in the course of which the nations and races of the world, and particularly in Europe and America, were unified and achieved political independence.....” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 120

 

[The_Fisher_King]

What I mean is history as it can be traced back to a religion. For example, Muhammad had a huge impact on civilization and that can be seen by looking at history.

“The Faith of Islám, the succeeding link in the chain of Divine Revelation, introduced, as Bahá’u’lláh Himself testifies, the conception of the nation as a unit and a vital stage in the organization of human society, and embodied it in its teaching. This indeed is what is meant by this brief yet highly significant and illuminating pronouncement of Bahá’u’lláh: “Of old [Islamic Dispensation] it hath been revealed: ‘Love of one’s country is an element of the Faith of God.’” This principle was established and stressed by the Apostle of God, inasmuch as the evolution of human society required it at that time. Nor could any stage above and beyond it have been envisaged, as world conditions preliminary to the establishment of a superior form of organization were as yet unobtainable. The conception of nationality, the attainment to the state of nationhood, may, therefore, be said to be the distinguishing characteristics of the MuHammadan Dispensation, in the course of which the nations and races of the world, and particularly in Europe and America, were unified and achieved political independence.....” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 120

So you mean global history, or the history of a particular region?

 

[Trailblazer]

So you mean global history, or the history of a particular region?

I mean global history, although that religion might not have affected the entire world.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I mean global history, although that religion might not have affected the entire world.

So how has Zoroastrianism affected global history?

 

[Trailblazer]

So how has Zoroastrianism affected global history?

It might not have affected the entire world, but I surmise that it affected Persia at the time it was revealed and during its dispensation, and there are indications that it continued to have an influence afterwards.

• Zoroastrianism: Little Religion, Big Influence
• Influence of Zoroastrianism on other religions
• Western Thought influenced by Zoroastrianism

 

[The_Fisher_King]

It might not have affected the entire world, but I surmise that it affected Persia at the time it was revealed and during its dispensation, and there are indications that it continued to have an influence afterwards.

• Zoroastrianism: Little Religion, Big Influence
• Influence of Zoroastrianism on other religions
• Western Thought influenced by Zoroastrianism

What about the influence Jainism had on India and Hinduism?

 

[Trailblazer]

What about the influence Jainism had on India and Hinduism?

That would be another example of a religion having an influence on another religion and upon a nation.

 

[Spartan]

It does matter that one believe in God.

"Unless you believe I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." - John 8:24

Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:58, etc.) and the Jewish Messiah.

 

[Trailblazer]

It does matter that one believe in God.

"Unless you believe I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." - John 8:24

Sorry, its me again...
That is true, we have to believe in Jesus, but Jesus said that He was the Son of man, but NOT God. If Jesus did not do anything of Himself but as His Father taught Him, he had to be separate from the Father, thus NOT God the Father. This is simple logic.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.​

Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:58, etc.) and the Jewish Messiah.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
​

Jesus was not claiming to be God in that verse. As I just explained on another forum, the soul of Jesus was pre-existent and that is WHY Jesus said that He existed before Abraham.

The poster said: The pre-existence of Jesus sounds, to me, like an absurd proposition.

I said: I can understand why it would sound absurd because you have no context in order to understand what that means. First you would have to understand what I believe about the human soul and when it comes into being. For ordinary people the soul comes into being at the very moment of conception, but for Prophets (Messengers of God) the soul is pre-existent.

To say that Jesus was pre-existent simply means that His soul existed in the spiritual world before He was born into this material world. How long His soul existed there I do not know, but the spiritual world is not constrained by time so time is a moot point. As such I can assume that the soul of Jesus always existed. And that is why Christians believe that Jesus was the Alpha and the Omega.

Then he said: What would be the reason and/or the purpose of having a pre-existing Jesus? Was God keeping the "spiritual Jesus" stored in some kind of heaven hangar to be deployed when the time was right?

I said: You are kind of right about that. God was keeping the soul of Jesus in heaven till the time was right for Him to be deployed to earth.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

That would be another example of a religion having an influence on another religion and upon a nation.

I'd suggest just as important an influence as Zoroastrianism. And yet what is Baha'u'llah's view of Mahavira?

 

[Spartan]

Sorry, its me again...
That is true, we have to believe in Jesus, but Jesus said that He was the Son of man, but NOT God.

That's not true.

"The claims of Christ are many and varied. He said that He existed before Abraham (John 8:58), and that He was equal with the Father (John 5:17, 18). Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:5–7), which the Bible teaches was something that God alone could do (Isaiah 43:25).

The New Testament equated Jesus as the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and that He is the one who holds everything together (Colossians 1:17). The apostle Paul says that God was manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16, KJV), and John the evangelist says that “the Word was God” (John 1:1). The united testimony of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is that He was more than mere man; He was God.

Not only did His friends notice that He claimed to be God, but so did His enemies as well. There may be some doubt today among the skeptics who refuse to examine the evidence, but there was no doubt on the part of the Jewish authorities.

When Jesus asked them why they wanted to stone Him, they replied, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God” (John 10:33, NASB).

This fact separates Jesus from the other religious figures. In the major religions of the world, the teachings—not the teacher—are all-important.

Yes, Jesus claimed to be God. Why should anyone believe it? After all, merely claiming to be something does not make it true. Where’s the evidence that Jesus is God?

The Bible gives various reasons, including miracles and fulfilled prophecy, that are intended to convince us that Jesus is the one whom He said He was (John 20:30, 31). The main reason, or the sign which Jesus Himself said would demonstrate that He was the Son of God, was His resurrection from the dead.

When asked for a sign from the religious leaders, Jesus replied, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40, RSV).

In another place He said, when asked for a sign, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up… but he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:19, 21, KJV). The ability to raise His life back from the dead was the sign that separates Him not only from all other religious leaders, but also from anyone else who has ever lived."

Did Jesus Claim to Be God? Even if He Did, Why Should I Believe It? - Josh.org

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd suggest just as important an influence as Zoroastrianism. And yet what is Baha'u'llah's view of Mahavira?

Who is Mahavira?

 

[Trailblazer]

"The claims of Christ are many and varied. He said that He existed before Abraham (John 8:58)

But that does not mean Jesus was God.

The reason Jesus said He was before Abraham is because the soul of Jesus was pre-existent in the spiritual world (heaven). The spiritual world is without beginning of end and that is why Jesus had always existed even before He was born from the womb of Mary, and that is why Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega.

That does not mean that Jesus was literally God in the flesh. God is Spirit. God cannot incarnate as a man and become flesh, but rather God manifests Himself in the flesh. God manifested Himself as Jesus who came in the flesh.

The Jews stoned Jesus because they THOUGHT He was saying that He was God, but Jesus was NOT saying that at all. Read this article carefully and you will see how Jesus denied that He was God. He referred to Himself as the Son of God, which He was, but He denied being God the Father: Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

And that He was equal with the Father (John 5:17, 18).

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Please read that article I linked to above because it covers this. Jesus said he was the Son of God, but not God. The Jews misconstrued what Jesus meant. Just because God was His Father that does not mean that Jesus was equal to God. A son has the nature of his father but he is not the same as his father. Likewise Jesus, the Son of God, had the same nature as God, but Jesus was not exactly the same as God, because God has Attributes that are unique to God. For example, God alone is Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial.

Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:5–7), which the Bible teaches was something that God alone could do (Isaiah 43:25).

I do not see where Isaiah 43:25 says that only God can forgive sins: 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus had the power to forgive sins:

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134​

The New Testament equated Jesus as the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and that He is the one who holds everything together (Colossians 1:17).

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In the beginning was God and the Word was with God. Then when God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. That does not mean that God became flesh, but rather that the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

That means Jesus is not literally God in the flesh, because an image cannot be the same as what it reflects. Yes, it is a Baha’i belief that Jesus was a perfect mirror image of God. That is explained in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

The apostle Paul says that God was manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16, KJV), and John the evangelist says that “the Word was God” (John 1:1). The united testimony of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is that He was more than mere man; He was God.

Of course Jesus was more than mere man; He was a Manifestation of God as the following verse says. But a Manifestation of God is not God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

That verse is very accurate. God did manifest in the flesh because Jesus was a Manifestation of God in the flesh. It does not say that God incarnated in the flesh. There is a difference between a Manifestation and an Incarnation. An Incarnation means God became flesh. The word manifest means to display something clearly; so what Jesus did was to display the Attributes of God clearly in the flesh.

Not only did His friends notice that He claimed to be God, but so did His enemies as well. There may be some doubt today among the skeptics who refuse to examine the evidence, but there was no doubt on the part of the Jewish authorities.

When Jesus asked them why they wanted to stone Him, they replied, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God” (John 10:33, NASB).

Regarding the Jews, you really need to read this article: Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

This fact separates Jesus from the other religious figures. In the major religions of the world, the teachings—not the teacher—are all-important.

Why can't both the teachings and the teacher be important? What is the point of worshiping a teacher who has no teachings? Jesus did not want to be worshiped because Jesus did not consider Himself to be God. He said to worship God only:

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

The most important thing we got from Jesus are His teachings. that is what has transformed the hearts and the morals of humanity. Yet unfortunately, His teachings have taken a back set to the doctrines of the Church that say that Jesus is God, Jesus died for our sins, Jesus resurrected, and you are saved and forgiven for your sins. None of this came from Jesus, it was all a product of the Church.

Yes, Jesus claimed to be God. Why should anyone believe it? After all, merely claiming to be something does not make it true. Where’s the evidence that Jesus is God?

Show me the verses where Jesus claimed to be God, not verses that you think mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. Do you know the difference? Where did Jesus ever say “I am God?” If Jesus was God, why would He beat around the bush? God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Spartan]

But that does not mean Jesus was God.

The reason Jesus said He was before Abraham is because the soul of Jesus was pre-existent in the spiritual world (heaven). The spiritual world is without beginning of end and that is why Jesus had always existed even before He was born from the womb of Mary, and that is why Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega.

That does not mean that Jesus was literally God in the flesh. God is Spirit. God cannot incarnate as a man and become flesh, but rather God manifests Himself in the flesh. God manifested Himself as Jesus who came in the flesh.

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Please read that article I linked to above because it covers this. Jesus said he was the Son of God, but not God. The Jews misconstrued what Jesus meant. Just because God was His Father that does not mean that Jesus was equal to God. A son has the nature of his father but he is not the same as his father. Likewise Jesus, the Son of God, had the same nature as God, but Jesus was not exactly the same as God, because God has Attributes that are unique to God. For example, God alone is Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial.

I do not see where Isaiah 43:25 says that only God can forgive sins: 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus had the power to forgive sins:

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134​

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In the beginning was God and the Word was with God. Then when God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. That does not mean that God became flesh, but rather that the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

That means Jesus is not literally God in the flesh, because an image cannot be the same as what it reflects. Yes, it is a Baha’i belief that Jesus was a perfect mirror image of God. That is explained in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

Of course Jesus was more than mere man; He was a Manifestation of God as the following verse says. But a Manifestation of God is not God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

That verse is very accurate. God did manifest in the flesh because Jesus was a Manifestation of God in the flesh. It does not say that God incarnated in the flesh. There is a difference between a Manifestation and an Incarnation. An Incarnation means God became flesh. The word manifest means to display something clearly; so what Jesus did was to display the Attributes of God clearly in the flesh.


Regarding the Jews, you really need to read this article: Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

Why can't both the teachings and the teacher be important? What is the point of worshiping a teacher who has no teachings? Jesus did not want to be worshiped because Jesus did not consider Himself to be God. He said to worship God only:

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

The most important thing we got from Jesus are His teachings. that is what has transformed the hearts and the morals of humanity. Yet unfortunately, His teachings have taken a back set to the doctrines of the Church that say that Jesus is God, Jesus died for our sins, Jesus resurrected, and you are saved and forgiven for your sins. None of this came from Jesus, it was all a product of the Church.

Show me the verses where Jesus claimed to be God, not verses that you think mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. Do you know the difference? Where did Jesus ever say “I am God?” If Jesus was God, why would He beat around the bush? God is not the author of confusion.

No, it's Satan that has people deluded about the deity of Jesus. Jesus is God. He said he's the I am (John 8:58). Also in Mark when he was walking on the water. He said it is ego eimi - I am. You can equivocate all you want. But let me tell you the real reason people don't believe in the deity of Christ:

" The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned." - 1 Corinthians 2:14

And by the way, here's some more evidences of the deity of Jesus you can equivocate on:

Jesus Must be Jehovah

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Who is Mahavira?

Depending on your viewpoint, the founder or reviver of Jainism.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, it's Satan that has people deluded about the deity of Jesus. Jesus is God. He said he's the I am (John 8:58). Also in Mark when he was walking on the water. He said it is ego eimi - I am. You can equivocate all you want. But let me tell you the real reason people don't believe in the deity of Christ:

" The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned." - 1 Corinthians 2:14

And by the way, here's some more evidences of the deity of Jesus you can equivocate on:

Jesus Must be Jehovah

Okay, as I said before, you are free to believe whatever you want to and I will believe what I want to. I do not ONLY believe what I do because of my religion; I also believe it because I carefully analyzed various verses and came to logical conclusions. I do not just act upon emotion.

Verses can be interpreted in many different ways. Those verses only show that Jesus is God to people who already believe that Jesus is God.

Here is what Jesus says He came to earth for:

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Please note that Jesus says nothing about coming into the world to be a sacrificial lamb to save us from our sins. That is a doctrine of the Church, NOT a teaching of Jesus.

What was this Truth Jesus came to bear witness to? It was the Truth about God. The various translations of John 1:18 say that Jesus came to make God known, to declare God, to explain God, to show us what God is like. That alone indicates that Jesus cannot BE God, because showing what God is like indicates that Jesus was separate from God. John 1:18

John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

Please note that all the translations of John 1:18 say that no one has ever seen God. Many people saw Jesus so we know that Jesus cannot be God.

Jesus was the Word because Jesus was the appearance of God, since the perfections of God appeared in Jesus.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God because the perfections of God were manifested in Jesus.

“As it is said in the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”; 1 then the Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in the Reality of Christ, and these perfections were with God; so the sun manifests all its glory in the mirror. For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him. For Christ was like a clear mirror which was facing the Sun of Reality; and the perfections of the Sun of Reality—that is to say, its light and heat—were visible and apparent in this mirror. If we look into the mirror, we see the sun, and we say, “It is the sun.” Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse in the Gospel which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God”; 2 for the divine perfections are not different from the Essence of Oneness.” Some Answered Questions, p. 206

The fact that Jesus was a Manifestation of God is corroborated in this verse:

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Please note that the verse does not say that Jesus was an incarnation of God as most Christians believe. A Manifestation of God shows us what God is like, as it says in John 1:18. An Incarnation of God means that God became flesh, that God assumed a human nature and became a man in the form of Jesus Christ. That is impossible because God is Spirit and a Spirit cannot become flesh and still be Spirit.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Being the image of God means that Jesus cannot be God, because an image is a representation of something else. An image is not the thing itself.

Moreover, this verse says God is invisible, and we know that Jesus was not invisible, since He was seen by many people.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do not know why Christians cannot settle for Jesus being a Manifestation of God, because that is what is supported by the scripture. The scripture does not support that God incarnated and became the man Jesus; that is a Church doctrine.

Jesus did not have to be God in order to forgive sins or to bestow salvation on the cross; a Manifestation of God can do those things. Again, it was Church doctrine that says that only God can forgive sins and bestow salvation upon us.

Moreover, it is not true that only God is sinless, so that is not a reason why Jesus would have had to become God in order to bestow salvation on the cross. A Manifestation of God is also sinless and He can bestow salvation.

Philippians 2;6-8 Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus was in the form of God because Jesus was a perfect mirror image of God in the flesh, but that verse shows that Jesus was not actually God, because the form of God is not the same as God.

Jesus was equal with God, but that verse show that Jesus was not God, and the reason why is explained in the excerpt from the article Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

“Furthermore, claiming equality with God is not the same as claiming to be God. In claiming to be equal to someone, you necessarily distinguish yourself from that person. Jesus constantly distinguished himself from the “one” God of Judaism, whom he called “Father.””

I suggest you read the whole article on that link because it explains what Jesus actually claimed about Himself, that He was not God.

If Jesus had been God, He would have wanted everyone to know He was God; otherwise He would have been deceptive, and God does not lie.

If Jesus was FULLY God, as Christians claim, He could not have been humble; God cannot be is humble since God is All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and All-Wise.

Jesus was God in the sense that He manifested the attributes of God, but Jesus was also a Messenger of God and a Servant of God and the Voice of God Himself. In the New Testament, Jesus speaks from all these different stations. In His station of Servant He humbles Himself before God but at other times He speaks as if He is God, because Jesus was the Voice of God.

 

[Spartan]

Okay, as I said before, you are free to believe whatever you want to and I will believe what I want to. I do not ONLY believe what I do because of my religion; I also believe it because I carefully analyzed various verses and came to logical conclusions. I do not just act upon emotion.

Verses can be interpreted in many different ways. Those verses only show that Jesus is God to people who already believe that Jesus is God.

Here is what Jesus says He came to earth for:

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Please note that Jesus says nothing about coming into the world to be a sacrificial lamb to save us from our sins. That is a doctrine of the Church, NOT a teaching of Jesus.

What was this Truth Jesus came to bear witness to? It was the Truth about God. The various translations of John 1:18 say that Jesus came to make God known, to declare God, to explain God, to show us what God is like. That alone indicates that Jesus cannot BE God, because showing what God is like indicates that Jesus was separate from God. John 1:18

John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

Please note that all the translations of John 1:18 say that no one has ever seen God. Many people saw Jesus so we know that Jesus cannot be God.

Jesus was the Word because Jesus was the appearance of God, since the perfections of God appeared in Jesus.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God because the perfections of God were manifested in Jesus.

“As it is said in the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”; 1 then the Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in the Reality of Christ, and these perfections were with God; so the sun manifests all its glory in the mirror. For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him. For Christ was like a clear mirror which was facing the Sun of Reality; and the perfections of the Sun of Reality—that is to say, its light and heat—were visible and apparent in this mirror. If we look into the mirror, we see the sun, and we say, “It is the sun.” Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse in the Gospel which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God”; 2 for the divine perfections are not different from the Essence of Oneness.” Some Answered Questions, p. 206

The fact that Jesus was a Manifestation of God is corroborated in this verse:

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Please note that the verse does not say that Jesus was an incarnation of God as most Christians believe. A Manifestation of God shows us what God is like, as it says in John 1:18. An Incarnation of God means that God became flesh, that God assumed a human nature and became a man in the form of Jesus Christ. That is impossible because God is Spirit and a Spirit cannot become flesh and still be Spirit.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Being the image of God means that Jesus cannot be God, because an image is a representation of something else. An image is not the thing itself.

Moreover, this verse says God is invisible, and we know that Jesus was not invisible, since He was seen by many people.

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I do not know why Christians cannot settle for Jesus being a Manifestation of God, because that is what is supported by the scripture. The scripture does not support that God incarnated and became the man Jesus; that is a Church doctrine.

Jesus did not have to be God in order to forgive sins or to bestow salvation on the cross; a Manifestation of God can do those things. Again, it was Church doctrine that says that only God can forgive sins and bestow salvation upon us.

Moreover, it is not true that only God is sinless, so that is not a reason why Jesus would have had to become God in order to bestow salvation on the cross. A Manifestation of God is also sinless and He can bestow salvation.

Philippians 2;6-8 Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus was in the form of God because Jesus was a perfect mirror image of God in the flesh, but that verse shows that Jesus was not actually God, because the form of God is not the same as God.

Jesus was equal with God, but that verse show that Jesus was not God, and the reason why is explained in the excerpt from the article Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

“Furthermore, claiming equality with God is not the same as claiming to be God. In claiming to be equal to someone, you necessarily distinguish yourself from that person. Jesus constantly distinguished himself from the “one” God of Judaism, whom he called “Father.””

I suggest you read the whole article on that link because it explains what Jesus actually claimed about Himself, that He was not God.

If Jesus had been God, He would have wanted everyone to know He was God; otherwise He would have been deceptive, and God does not lie.

If Jesus was FULLY God, as Christians claim, He could not have been humble; God cannot be is humble since God is All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and All-Wise.

Jesus was God in the sense that He manifested the attributes of God, but Jesus was also a Messenger of God and a Servant of God and the Voice of God Himself. In the New Testament, Jesus speaks from all these different stations. In His station of Servant He humbles Himself before God but at other times He speaks as if He is God, because Jesus was the Voice of God.

The Gospels confirm Jesus came as a sacrifice for sins: "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." - John 1:29

As for the deity of Jesus, I and others have already posted numerous scriptural evidences that Jesus is God. Here's just one: Who do YOU say Jesus is?

I don't feel the need to spend hours reiterating what I've already presented.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Gospels confirm Jesus came as a sacrifice for sins: "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." - John 1:29

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

That was said ABOUT Jesus, not BY Jesus. Where in the Gospels did Jesus ever say He came to take away the sins of the world?

As for the deity of Jesus, I and others have already posted numerous scriptural evidences that Jesus is God. Here's just one: Who do YOU say Jesus is?

Likewise, I am others on this forum have posted numerous scriptural evidence that Jesus is NOT God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

John 8:28 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, a perfect image of God, a reflection of God’s divine attributes, as the verses above say.

As a logical point Jesus cannot be BOTH God and a man at the same time because those are mutually exclusive categories. It is obvious that Jesus was MORE than just a man, and God cannot become a man or God would no longer be God, so where does that leave us? Jesus can be a God-man, part man, part God, and for all intents and purposes that is who I believe Jesus was.

Jesus had a twofold nature, a physical nature (of man) and a spiritual nature (of God).

The following passage describes who Jesus was and the reason God sent Him.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself... The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67