Does it really matter if we believe in God?

[RESOLUTION]

Yes it matters if we believe in God.



At the day of Judgement, people will tell the Lord Jesus what they did for him:

1. That they performed miracles using his name
2. That they prophesied using his name
3. That they exorcised demons using his name

And Jesus has a ready reply - "I never knew you." Matthew 7:21-23
These people are "Christians" but they are going to the lake of fire.

What are chances of those who are unbelievers and those who are atheists?
Their chances are much less, I'm afraid. Remember Revelation 21:8 above?

Hi MJFlores,

When Christ healed people he never asked if they were good or deserving.
His message about not everyone knowing him but believing in him shows they were still able to do all the things God had promised.
That being able to perform miracles, prophesy and cast out demons can be done with those who have faith and believe.
But the real message of Christ can be found in
John 14:15-16. King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Anyone who believes in Jesus will and can do what he has done. But the true nature of faith and belief in knowing Christ is to live in love obeying his commandments.


1 Corinthians 13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

A believer can believe but if they lack love it is worth nothing. Loving God can be an action rather than just a belief. Matthew 25:31-40 It is actions which speak louder than words.

With Jesus he walked the walk and talked the talk... He loved others and gave his life for them. No greater love.

Spirit and truth is the way of the believer.according to the Word of God and Christ.

 

[RESOLUTION]

God did not procreate. I am not a Chrisitan. I do not believe God has any children other than us figurative children.

As for the Christians, I'll let them make their own defense, but I do believe they only defend that God incarnated a pre-existing second person of the trinity, not that he procreated.

Procreate...produce young... God created a man in Adam and babies came later.
Christ was like the first Adam created by the will and word of God and his power. Neither were of the flesh but the power of God.
Do you Indigo believe that the Angels were not from young but became the Sons of God because as their creator God is their Father?

What is there for a Christian to defend? God always been more than capable to defend himself. If the book of life was written before the foundation of the world what does that really make those whom God breathed his own life into? God is far greater than human logic, wisdom or understanding can comprehend - given his works.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Procreate...produce young... God created a man in Adam and babies came later.
Christ was like the first Adam created by the will and word of God and his power. Neither were of the flesh but the power of God.
Do you Indigo believe that the Angels were not from young but became the Sons of God because as their creator God is their Father?

What is there for a Christian to defend? God always been more than capable to defend himself. If the book of life was written before the foundation of the world what does that really make those whom God breathed his own life into? God is far greater than human logic, wisdom or understanding can comprehend - given his works.

I'm sorry, but creating is not the same thing as procreating. For God to procreate, he would have to have sex to create baby gods like himself. Zeus procreated. The God of Abraham does not procreate. He creates beings that are different in essence.

Remember that I'm not a Christian. I don't believe that Jesus is anything like Adam.

Malekhim, which means messengers, are sometimes called Angels. They are heavenly beings. I don't profess to know anything about their origin other than that they are created being, not Gods. Yes, sometimes they are called elohim. The word elohim actually has about four different meanings.

God is not the equivilent of Christian beliefs. God needs no defense. Christian beliefs, OTOH, need much defending, given that so many people don't believe.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Don't think too hard. It was simply my reflection as to what you posted.

Try to keep up friend... it wasn't I who had posted anything.

 

[MJFlores]

Hi MJFlores,

When Christ healed people he never asked if they were good or deserving.
His message about not everyone knowing him but believing in him shows they were still able to do all the things God had promised.
That being able to perform miracles, prophesy and cast out demons can be done with those who have faith and believe.
But the real message of Christ can be found in
John 14:15-16. King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Anyone who believes in Jesus will and can do what he has done. But the true nature of faith and belief in knowing Christ is to live in love obeying his commandments.


1 Corinthians 13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

A believer can believe but if they lack love it is worth nothing. Loving God can be an action rather than just a belief. Matthew 25:31-40 It is actions which speak louder than words.

With Jesus he walked the walk and talked the talk... He loved others and gave his life for them. No greater love.

Spirit and truth is the way of the believer.according to the Word of God and Christ.

Nice use of the verses. It would have been better if you could have used a more comprehensible contemporary English Bible. I would cite you some examples. You have quoted 1 Cor 13:1-2 but I would like to center this on verse 2

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

According to the KJV - he is nothing without "charity" - even if he performed those things.
But if we were to continue to verse 3 this is written

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Isn't charity defined as:

char·i·ty
/ˈCHerədē/
noun
noun: charity; plural noun: charities

1. 1.
   an organization set up to provide help and raise money for those in need.
   synonyms: non-profit-making organization, nonprofit organization, not-for-profit organization, voluntary organization, charitable institution; More
   fund, trust, foundation, cause, movement
   "they raised money for an AIDS charity"
   • the body of organizations viewed collectively as the object of fundraising or of donations.
     "the proceeds of the sale will go to charity"
2. 2.
   the voluntary giving of help, typically in the form of money, to those in need.
   synonyms: financial assistance, aid, welfare, relief, financial relief, funding; More

See how confusing KJV is?
Aside from the use of Shakespearean English which its use is in the confines of the theater.

So what is the charity that people should have so it we won't be nothing?

 

[RESOLUTION]

I'm sorry, but creating is not the same thing as procreating. For God to procreate, he would have to have sex to create baby gods like himself. Zeus procreated. The God of Abraham does not procreate. He creates beings that are different in essence.

Where is it written or taught that God would have to have sex to procreate? As Adam and Eve were not born of Sex and Adam being called a Son of God what does it really tell you about life as far as creation. Gods first children were not born from sex. If he created another man not by sex would he be any less human? The bible would determine the discussion to be one of those called "Useless"

Remember that I'm not a Christian. I don't believe that Jesus is anything like Adam.

Are you saying that God did not create Jesus? Are you saying that Jesus not fully human like Adam? Of course Jesus is like Adam in all things for both are born by the will and power of God.

Malekhim, which means messengers, are sometimes called Angels. They are heavenly beings. I don't profess to know anything about their origin other than that they are created being, not Gods. Yes, sometimes they are called elohim. The word elohim actually has about four different meanings.

The Sons of God have to have the Name of God but no confusion that to be a Son of God is to be like him in and do as he would do.
Jesus and Adam sons of God in that they are created by God and all true Sons created by the Will and power of God and so life ensues.

Ezekiel 11:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 And the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the Lord; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.

What makes someone a Child of God? Is it that they do as Abraham and Jesus Christ did and obey God?

God is not the equivilent of Christian beliefs. God needs no defense. Christian beliefs, OTOH, need much defending, given that so many people don't believe.

There is no such thing as Christians just Jews of the New Covenant as in Jeremiah 31:31-34. A covenant gave for all mankind to come unto himself. As it was in the Old days so it is in the New Covenant. True children of God speak by the power of Gods Spirit and his truth, God is the full embodiment of truth held in the teachings of the Prophets. Today, God wants everyone to know him and they do not need to be told. Because when Gods Spirit is teaching a person they have all they need to be a true child of God in this world. When David sinned he says :Tehillim 51
11 (13) Cast me not away from Thy presence; and take not Thy Ruach Hakodesh from me. What do you believe God is teaching us when he says
Zecharyah 4:6
6 Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying, This is the Devar Hashem unto Zerubavel, saying, Not by might, nor by ko’ach (power), but by My Ruach [Hakodesh], saith Hashem Tzva’os. It is important to follow what God teaches and to know that the way of God for mankind is to know him through the power of truth and Spirit.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ditto on that.

Ditto on that too.... I love Buddhist philosophy, sometimes even more than Baha'i, but my logical mind says Baha'i has to be true...

Before I became a Baha'i I was in to Martial Arts (Arts of the Way) and became exposed to different forms of Buddhism. Because of doctrinal and cultural attachments I never became Buddhist, but remain close to many of the principles of Buddhism.

I see attributes of God in different religions that reflect the light of unity, even though they are separated by cultural and doctrinal differences.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Nice use of the verses. It would have been better if you could have used a more comprehensible contemporary English Bible. I would cite you some examples. You have quoted 1 Cor 13:1-2 but I would like to center this on verse 2

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

According to the KJV - he is nothing without "charity" - even if he performed those things.
But if we were to continue to verse 3 this is written

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Isn't charity defined as:

char·i·ty
/ˈCHerədē/
noun
noun: charity; plural noun: charities

1. 1.
   an organization set up to provide help and raise money for those in need.
   synonyms: non-profit-making organization, nonprofit organization, not-for-profit organization, voluntary organization, charitable institution; More
   fund, trust, foundation, cause, movement
   "they raised money for an AIDS charity"
   • the body of organizations viewed collectively as the object of fundraising or of donations.
     "the proceeds of the sale will go to charity"
2. 2.
   the voluntary giving of help, typically in the form of money, to those in need.
   synonyms: financial assistance, aid, welfare, relief, financial relief, funding; More

See how confusing KJV is?
Aside from the use of Shakespearean English which its use is in the confines of the theater.

View attachment 28093

So what is the charity that people should have so it we won't be nothing?

There isn't any confusions. Charity is a translation of the greek word Agape which also means LOVE. The New Testament originally in Greek and translated the word used Agape means love too. AGAPE is a selfless love and the highest form in Christian beliefs. So when we return to the true writing and representation we know that Agape is the word used for charity and love.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Okay, so it matters that we believe that God exists, but WHY?
It means very little to just know a God exists unless we know the significance of that.

I think it matters not so much that we believe in God but that we know God's will for us and live the life that God wants us to live and thereby become our true selves...

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68
​

It also matters that we believe in God so we know that the Purpose of our existence is not limited to this life... It really has very little to do with this life, as this life is just preparation for the life to come, which is the Real Life. That is how I see it anyway.

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

But all of that - if it's going to be rational, at least - needs certainty that God exists as its foundation.

We can never know "God's will for us" with greater certainty than that with which we know that God exists at all.

If God's mere existence is an open question, then so is everything about God.

OTOH, any time you really can deduce something validly about God's will, you can use it to also deduce God's existence.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I believe we stand from the body when the last breath is surrendered

heaven comes to see what stood up
and the question will be.....What do you believe?

having spent time not believing could 'prove' a problem
and the answer might be harsh

so now someone will pull out a raor and make a declaration

and I say......bring a razor?
to a sword fight?

I don't think the question will be what do you believe anyhow

The question will be is there evidence in your life that you have the fruit of knowing God and Jesus. It's related

There are about 8 eschatological parables of Jesus relating to judgement and all are judgements of the fruit of the faith the person had. The sheep, those who knew Jesus for example, visited prisons, fed the poor, clothed the naked. The goats who were not redeemed and left with their goaty natures did not.

Saving faith is more than syllogistic logic. It may not be less than that. It is a rational faith... it's just more... its a measuring transforming faith where one knows God in a relational way

 

[whirlingmerc]

Yes, if your a pleasure seeker.

Nothing wrong with being a pleasure seeker.

The problem is if you think the gutter water of the world is super and turn down the living water from the throne of God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Where is it written or taught that God would have to have sex to procreate?

There are only two kinds of procreation: sexual and asexual. God does neither. He doesn't create baby Gods to carry on the species. Procreation is a biological function and God is not a biological being.Furthermore, procreation is part of the circle of life and death. Since God doesn't die, he has no reason to procreate.

Are you saying that God did not create Jesus? Are you saying that Jesus not fully human like Adam? Of course Jesus is like Adam in all things for both are born by the will and power of God.

Oh good heavens, I'm a JEW for crying out loud. Jesus was a man, a created beings.

It is Christians who elevate Jesus to "Last Adam." By this they are saying that as Adam began one paradigm, Jesus began the new paradigm. I say the opposite. Adam was the first man. Jesus wasn't the first anything. He's just a regular old Jew practicing Judaism, going around trying to get Jews to observe Torah.

What makes someone a Child of God? Is it that they do as Abraham and Jesus Christ did and obey God?

I hope you don't mind, but your posts are very long,so when you go off topic, I'm just going to pass it by.

There is no such thing as Christians just Jews of the New Covenant as in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

We have a radical disconnect here. First of all, if you are talking about the New Covenant that's in the NT, people that believe in that are NOT Jews. They are CHRISTIANS. So I hope you aren't trying to play funny games with me, because I'll cut you off so quick you'll think I did a houdini disappearing act.

Secondly, the New Covenant in Jeremiah hasn't yet come to pass. Do we have the law written on our hearts yet? No. Children must be taught right from wrong. Do all men believe in God? NO. Too many men do NOT believe in God. Have all the Jews been gathered out of the North and from the far ends of the earth and ALL restored to the Land of Israel? Certainly not!!! IOW, the New Covenant that Jeremiah speaks of is still yet to come.

 

[MJFlores]

There isn't any confusions. Charity is a translation of the greek word Agape which also means LOVE. The New Testament originally in Greek and translated the word used Agape means love too. AGAPE is a selfless love and the highest form in Christian beliefs. So when we return to the true writing and representation we know that Agape is the word used for charity and love.

Very good - Charity in KJV is love.
Now what kind of love is it?
Allow me to write from the Easy To Read Version ERV 1 Cor 13:1-3

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
13 I may speak in different languages, whether human or even of angels. But if I don’t have love, I am only a noisy bell or a ringing cymbal. 2 I may have the gift of prophecy, I may understand all secrets and know everything there is to know, and I may have faith so great that I can move mountains. But even with all this, if I don’t have love, I am nothing. 3 I may give away everything I have to help others, and I may even give my body as an offering to be burned. But I gain nothing by doing all this if I don’t have love.

speaking in different [human or angels] language - requires love - HOW?
understanding of all secrets and everything so as to have faith to move mountains - requires love - WHAT?
giving away everything to the poor or offering the body as a burnt offering - requires love - WHY?

Your verse, your explanation.
What is this love?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I in no means said that those who didn't believe in my God were borderline sociopaths. There was one last group, at the very end, a small minority of people, who use and abuse other people without conscience. I said these people were sociopaths (even if they said they believed in MY God).

Your post was so far off the mark, that it was abusive. I almost didn't replay. Shame on you.

Shame on me? Shame on you for not making your post clearer. Nothing abusive about my post.

 

[viole]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately because I usually post to atheists and I have a lot of atheist friends who do not think it matters if we believe in God. After all, there is no proof that God exists, so it is just as logical to say God does not exist as t is to say that God exists. There is evidence that God exists, but no proof.

You must dreaming. There is no evidence whatsoever of any god.

So why does it matter if we believe in God? Why is it so important, or is it? This is a question I would like other Baha’is to answer, but also Christians, Muslims, Jews, or any other religious adherents.

Of course atheists and agnostics can answer too.

You could have compressed the last 4 lines in 1, by saying that everybody can answer.

The second part of this question is that if God matters as much as some believers say, then why do they live for the material world and all it has to offer? Why don’t they live for God instead of the world? Why don’t they follow the teachings of their religion regarding detachment and sacrifice? This is not meant to be a criticism; it is just something I am wondering about and something to get people thinking. I mean in the Tablet of the True Seeker Baha’is are enjoined by Baha’u’llah to regard the world as utter nothingness.

I dont know any Baha. But for sure I know no Christian jumping with joy to see Jesus when diagnosed with terminal cancer. I always wondered why. Actually, I know why

Finally, if it does not matter if we believe in God before we die, and we will all find out that God exists after we die, why even bother to believe in God? I mean most atheists I know live very moral lives, so they do not really need the teachings and laws of religions, so why does it matter if they believe in God before they die?

I have some personal reasons for asking these questions that might come out later.

Well, I suspect most believers know, deep inside, that what they believe might not be true (see Christians not jumping with joy when they have cancer) and do not like to be reminded.

I believe they do not like us because we are their hidden cosnscious. And therefore, it is important to believe in God so that they get some comfort and recognition by sharing the same belief in nonsense.

For example, if you believe that by whispering some latin words on a wafer , turns the wafer in the body of Elvis, you are insane. If you believe it turns the wafer in the body of Jesus, then you are Catholic.

The difference between insanity and Catholicism, in this case, is only determined by the difference in the number of people who believe the former vs. the number of people who believe the latter. So, for a Catholic, it is important that as many people as possible believe in the Eucharist, for nobody wants to be demoted to insane.

There is nothing really more than this, when it comes to explain why it is important to believe.

Ciao

- viole

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Shame on me? Shame on you for not making your post clearer. Nothing abusive about my post.

My post was perfectly clear. There were four groups. Only the last one was labeled evil, and was later identified as rather sociopathic.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

My post was perfectly clear. There were four groups. Only the last one was labeled evil, and was later identified as rather sociopathic.

Yeah, and I asked you to clarify.

 

[Quintessence]

I only skimmed the thread, but the answer to the question "does it matter if someone believes in God" is clearly a matter of perspective. Presuming the OP specifically meant to inquire about the one-god of the Abrahamic religions and the Bible, some devotees of that god certainly do make a big deal about believing in it. It's part of their theological package deal where mere belief in this god grants certain consequences. I'm not going to pretend to understand how that works, especially since it seems to me that merely believing in something is rather shallow.

On the whole, I do not care what someone (dis)believes. I care what they do. It's a Pagan thing, I guess.

 

[FragrantGrace]

Another good argument to be agnostic or atheist.



Unfortunately this is another egocentric view of the circular reasoning to believe in God. It is best to begin with the assumption: 'Nothing is necessary.'

Sounds like you've afforded yourself the opportunity to assail beliefs you don't agree with.
That's too bad.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Christianity is the ultimate example of Egocentrism.
Thinking a great creator power that has made everything that is, was, or ever shall be, has nothing to do with its existence than to obsess over whether or not tiny humans, one particle of what that power has created, are doing what they're told in order to please that powers sense of right and wrong.
Judged for their actions by that power that created them to be exactly what they are! Fallible sin-filled humans. Because, in the beginning, God created two humans who did not possess the capacity of discernment. They did not possess the comprehension needed to understand right from wrong. Good, evil.
Which is why they did acquire that consciousness after they ate of the tree God planted in the garden and then forbid them to eat thereof. He forbid them to acquire the same knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, that He had.

Meanwhile, God, that is omnipresent, everywhere at all times, allowed Lucifer to enter the garden and tempt people who had no knowledge of right and wrong and therefore no requisite understanding of the dichotomy of obedience to disobedience.

And for the first innocent mistake, eating of the forbidden fruit, God cast them out and cursed humanity for all time.
After he set the whole thing up!
God is forgiveness? Why didn't he forgive the two innocent people he created devoid of intellectual capacity of free choice for being misled by a higher intelligence and enemy of God; Lucifer?

Who throughout the OT conspired with God to harm humanity. Especially Job.

The problem with Christianity is that Christians believe in the Bible.

 

[MJFlores]

There is nothing really more than this, when it comes to explain why it is important to believe.

I believe because
there are some problems that I do not have solutions
there are evil people that I do not want to cross paths with
every beginning has its end - this world and this life
I have read of things written in the past that became history afterwards
I have love ones that I care about and I want them safe from harm
In this terrible times, I hope to keep afloat
at the end of the line, I have invested on faith and works that will stand at the end of age
The Truth called me to be his and I answered.