Does it really matter if we believe in God?

[viole]

I believe because
there are some problems that I do not have solutions
there are evil people that I do not want to cross paths with
every beginning has its end - this world and this life
I have read of things written in the past that became history afterwards
I have love ones that I care about and I want them safe from harm
In this terrible times, I hope to keep afloat
at the end of the line, I have invested on faith and works that will stand at the end of age
The Truth called me to be his and I answered.

Terrible times? Where do you live?

Ciao

- viole

 

[FragrantGrace]

I believe because
there are some problems that I do not have solutions
there are evil people that I do not want to cross paths with
every beginning has its end - this world and this life
I have read of things written in the past that became history afterwards
I have love ones that I care about and I want them safe from harm
In this terrible times, I hope to keep afloat
at the end of the line, I have invested on faith and works that will stand at the end of age
The Truth called me to be his and I answered.

In the beginning was The Word and The Word was with God and The Word was God.
John 1:1

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;" John 10:27

 

[shunyadragon]

Sounds like you've afforded yourself the opportunity to assail beliefs you don't agree with. That's too bad.

I believe this is factually supported in history and the nature of these beliefs declaring they are the only way of salvation, and worse toward other religions and belief systems.

The problem with Christianity is that Christians believe in the Bible.

The Bible as considered the only literal word of God is a problem as many if not most Christians believe, and decidedly egocentric. There is a similar egocentric tribal and cultural perspective in Judaism and Islam.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, COP OUT!

Is it any wonder people struggle to believe in a god?

It is not any wonder to me why some people struggle to believe in God...

They do not like the fact that God is omnipotent, so God has more power than they do, and they do not like the fact that God is omniscient, so God knows more than they do...

In short, they are having a power struggle with God... God, you had better DO what I want you to DO, or else I am not going to believe in you. But of course it is a fight they can NEVER win.

That kind of sums it up, but of course people are completely unaware that this is what is going on in their heads.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see attributes of God in different religions that reflect the light of unity, even though they are separated by cultural and doctrinal differences.

And that makes you very suitable to be a Baha'i.

 

[shunyadragon]

And that makes you very suitable to be a Baha'i.

You too!

 

[Trailblazer]

But all of that - if it's going to be rational, at least - needs certainty that God exists as its foundation.

We can never know "God's will for us" with greater certainty than that with which we know that God exists at all.

If God's mere existence is an open question, then so is everything about God.

OTOH, any time you really can deduce something validly about God's will, you can use it to also deduce God's existence.

I like your use of logic.
First, we need certainty that God exists and everything else follows from that premise.
Of course nobody can ever prove that God exists as a FACT. It they could, they would get the Pulitzer prize!

But we can prove that God exists to ourselves, after which time we are CERTAIN that God exists. That is what believers have done, although believers have different degrees of certainty; I know some believers who consider themselves agnostic, because they do not believe we can ever be certain that God exists.

Any time you really can deduce something validly about God's Will, that assumes God's existence, because God has to exist in order to have a will.

For me, the Manifestations of God (what I usually refer to as Messengers) are PROOF of God's existence, and their will is IDENTICAL with God's Will. That is called Divine unity.

The following is an excerpt from a longer Tablet, but it is of utmost importance because it explains the most important underpinning of Baha'i theology. The invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence is God. The Manifestation of God for this age is Baha'u'llah, but there have been other Manifestations of God who represented the Will of God for past ages.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

 

[Trailblazer]

You must dreaming. There is no evidence whatsoever of any god.

There IS evidence but there is no proof.
Atheists just do not LIKE the evidence God provides.
It is their choice to reject the evidence, and God wants it to be a choice.

 

[sealchan]

It is not any wonder to me why some people struggle to believe in God...

They do not like the fact that God is omnipotent, so God has more power than they do, and they do not like the fact that God is omniscient, so God knows more than they do...

In short, they are having a power struggle with God... God, you had better DO what I want you to DO, or else I am not going to believe in you. But of course it is a fight they can NEVER win.

That kind of sums it up, but of course people are completely unaware that this is what is going on in their heads.

I think, rather, that they are wondering about a God who let's so and so have power and has the sun rise also for bad people. Wanting a good role model, the image of self-sacrificing superheroes using their hearts and their heads and their desirable superpowers to make the world a better place may seem much more relevant than the Son of a God who presides over a world of involuntary suffering.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think, rather, that they are wondering about a God who let's so and so have power and has the sun rise also for bad people. Wanting a good role model, the image of self-sacrificing superheroes using their hearts and their heads and their desirable superpowers to make the world a better place may seem much more relevant than the Son of a God who presides over a world of involuntary suffering.

Some suffering is involuntary, brought on by what other people do that we have no control over, but much of our suffering is because of our own choices.

What many people fail to understand is that we have been given free will to choose between good and evil. Blaming God for the evil that humans do is nothing more than passing the buck and abdicating responsibility.

 

[MJFlores]

Terrible times? Where do you live?

Ciao

- viole

Planet Earth

 

[MJFlores]

In the beginning was The Word and The Word was with God and The Word was God.
John 1:1

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;" John 10:27

Luke 1:37 New International Version (NIV)
For no word from God will ever fail.”

John 10:16 New International Version (NIV)
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[Windwalker]

So why does it matter if we believe in God? Why is it so important, or is it?

I see religious beliefs as symbolic of an intent towards the highest, or ultimate good, many call God. But that ultimate Good, can be "believed in", without believing in God, as the object of faith in that ultimate Good. Some people don't like that name, or the suggestions of it being a "person" watching over you, and such.

So I'd say both the atheist and the "believer" can be in fact serving the greatest Good. Or they may both not. The believer often is just as much a nonbeliever, in the sense that they don't act upon any intent towards the highest Good, as is an atheist who likewise just serves themselves.

In other words, its not the beliefs, but the intent of the will towards ultimate Truth, Beauty, and Goodness. Believer and unbeliever alike fail that, as well as "believe" in that.

The second part of this question is that if God matters as much as some believers say, then why do they live for the material world and all it has to offer? Why don’t they live for God instead of the world?

Because their "belief" is not actually faith. It's a mental idea they like, not something the aspire to become, no matter the cost.

Why don’t they follow the teachings of their religion regarding detachment and sacrifice?

People are religious for many reasons. Devotion to God, and a personal path to transcendence and transformation is usually a very rarely found reason. That's why those who are on that path, typically find religion to be a hindrance. Few are those truly devoted to that path.

Do I simply take this God stuff too seriously, or do others not take it seriously enough?

Well, both could be happening. Often times becoming uber religious, is a way to actually avoid God while assuaging guilt at the same time. A true path to God is one of surrender, not flagellations.

What does God really expect of us? Does it even matter to God what we do?

No. It doesn't matter to God. It matters to us. Either we live and experience the Divine, or we choose to not. Ultimately, I believe we all want to be Free.

A third part of this question is for believers. What do you think will be the repercussions of non-belief? By repercussions I mean what do you think will happen to nonbelievers after they die? Do you have a set belief about that?

None of my beliefs are "set". I do have ways I like to talk about these things however that helps me mentally frame it.

As far as after-death questions, I see things like who we are in this life, on a deep core level, not "you" in the sense of who you are today as "Bob" or whomever, but the essence of this spiritual form that is in temporarily in this current sack of skin you call "you", is like an object floating in the sea. Each object in this vast Sea, has its own buoyancy. It rises or sinks according to its composition, heavy or light, and everywhere in between.

So where we "go" after death, is right where we are here. In this life, we can ascend to lighter buoyancies, or heavier ones. When we leave this sack of skin, the deep core lessons of the soul where we either surrender or cling to the concerns of the human body and emotional needs, has affected where it will take us, both in this life, and the next.

So "non-belief", be that in the form of both the believer and nonbeliever alike, that lack of desire, longing, and hope for the highest Truth, the consequence is the same both in this life and the next. Are they finding the Ultimate Truth of their existence, or living in a delusion? It doesn't matter if it's before or after you die. It's the same.

Finally, if it does not matter if we believe in God before we die, and we will all find out that God exists after we die, why even bother to believe in God?

I like to ask Christians this question by asking, "If you found out there was no afterlife, no reward for you in heaven, would you still live for God?" I've yet to have anyone answer that satisfactorily.

The answer should be yes. And the reason is, because Love is the greatest Good, not "your reward".

 

[Trailblazer]

I consider religion as a class of hobby. Like other hobbies, it can be very important and meaningful for its participants, but at the same time, like other hobbies, it's entirely optional.

Belief in God is not a hobby but rather a part of life and what guides our thinking and or actions, at least I think it should be if a believer really believes in God. Religion is how most people come by their beliefs and so it is not to be dispensed with, although I think that participation is optional. In that sense religion could be considered a hobby, although most Baha’is would probably disagree with me.

It does seem to me that theists generally don't seem to live as if they actually believe what they say is true.

I am glad I am not the only one who has noticed this. I mean if they REALLY believe God exists and has revealed teachings as to how we are supposed to live, I would expect less interest in worldly things, but that is not what I generally see.

Personally, I'd need some sort of indication that there's even a mechanism for us to "survive death" before I'd worry about what happens to us after we die.

The soul is the “mechanism: that allows us to survive death. The body does not survive death or rise from the grave. Once dead, it remains dead. With all due respect to Christians, this is one of the most superstitious beliefs in the religion. Science has proven that people cannot come back to life once they are fully dead. Maybe people did not understand that back in the days of Jesus, but we know it now. Do you realize that only 19% of people in the United States are certain that Jesus did not rise from the grave? Some of those who believe in the resurrection are not even Christians, that is now much religious tradition has permeated society.

Once that hurdle has been cleared, the next hurdle would be which version of an afterlife to accept as correct. It's pretty easy to make up a hypothetical afterlife where non-belief is rewarded and belief is punished, and there are lots of incompatible ideas about afterlives out their already, so for a theist to argue that their particular belief will be rewarded in the afterlife, they would need to justify why their particular belief is better supported than all the others.

I do not know that it is about one religious belief being supported above all others but once we accept a religion as being true, it follows that we accept the afterlife belief that goes with it. If the theological underpinnings of the religion make sense, the afterlife belief should also make sense.

Baha’is do not argue that they have the belief that will be rewarded above all others although we do believe that we will be in a better position since we recognized the Manifestation of God for this age, and that is not a small thing to have knowledge of.

Christians believe that they go to heaven when they die but the different denominations of Christianity do not agree on what heaven will be like. Some try to conjure up an image by reading the Bible but the fact that they come up with different scenarios tells us that, logically speaking, there is no clear answer as to what heaven will be like. The same applies to hell.

By contrast, what Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha wrote about the soul and the afterlife is much more detailed and comprehensive than we find in any of the other major religions, and that is why Baha’is generally agree what awaits us in the afterlife, which we normally refer to as the spiritual world. The details of what we will see and experience have not been revealed because there is no way we could understand them given how different the afterlife is from this life, and because Baha’u’llah said it is not prudent that we know anymore than we have been told.

If you want a general idea of what Baha’is believe, the following article gives an overall view, without having to figure it out by going through all the Baha’i Writings to figure it out, which would take quite a while. Death and Dying in the Bahá'í Faith

The article is a little high level and assumes some knowledge so just let me know if you have any questions. The afterlife is a hobby of mine so I have studied all I can get my hands on. It is interesting to note that the Baha’i view is corroborated by near death experiences and also by spiritual experiences in other texts. Two of my favorites are The Afterlife Revealed and Private Dowding. The Afterlife Revealed debunks the idea of a Christian heaven and hell, and that was one of the goals of the book. Private Dowding is a record of a soldier in WWI who allegedly "channeled" to Pole from the afterlife. This book only tangentially mentions the Baha'i Faith on pages 45-46.

 

[MonkeyFire]

You have to admit the salvation would be something.

 

[shunyadragon]

I see religious beliefs as symbolic of an intent towards the highest, or ultimate good, many call God. But that ultimate Good, can be "believed in", without believing in God, as the object of faith in that ultimate Good. Some people don't like that name, or the suggestions of it being a "person" watching over you, and such.

So I'd say both the atheist and the "believer" can be in fact serving the greatest Good. Or they may both not. The believer often is just as much a nonbeliever, in the sense that they don't act upon any intent towards the highest Good, as is an atheist who likewise just serves themselves.

In other words, its not the beliefs, but the intent of the will towards ultimate Truth, Beauty, and Goodness. Believer and unbeliever alike fail that, as well as "believe" in that.


Because their "belief" is not actually faith. It's a mental idea they like, not something the aspire to become, no matter the cost.


People are religious for many reasons. Devotion to God, and a personal path to transcendence and transformation is usually a very rarely found reason. That's why those who are on that path, typically find religion to be a hindrance. Few are those truly devoted to that path.


Well, both could be happening. Often times becoming uber religious, is a way to actually avoid God while assuaging guilt at the same time. A true path to God is one of surrender, not flagellations.


No. It doesn't matter to God. It matters to us. Either we live and experience the Divine, or we choose to not. Ultimately, I believe we all want to be Free.


None of my beliefs are "set". I do have ways I like to talk about these things however that helps me mentally frame it.

As far as after-death questions, I see things like who we are in this life, on a deep core level, not "you" in the sense of who you are today as "Bob" or whomever, but the essence of this spiritual form that is in temporarily in this current sack of skin you call "you", is like an object floating in the sea. Each object in this vast Sea, has its own buoyancy. It rises or sinks according to its composition, heavy or light, and everywhere in between.

So where we "go" after death, is right where we are here. In this life, we can ascend to lighter buoyancies, or heavier ones. When we leave this sack of skin, the deep core lessons of the soul where we either surrender or cling to the concerns of the human body and emotional needs, has affected where it will take us, both in this life, and the next.

So "non-belief", be that in the form of both the believer and nonbeliever alike, that lack of desire, longing, and hope for the highest Truth, the consequence is the same both in this life and the next. Are they finding the Ultimate Truth of their existence, or living in a delusion? It doesn't matter if it's before or after you die. It's the same.

Up to this point I only see vague generalizations on the diversity of belief and non-belief.

I like to ask Christians this question by asking, "If you found out there was no afterlife, no reward for you in heaven, would you still live for God?" I've yet to have anyone answer that satisfactorily.

Likely true, and non-believers are apparently more comfortable with their being no reward.

The answer should be yes. And the reason is, because Love is the greatest Good, not "your reward".

Again likely agreed by believers in the diverse religions and non-believers that Love is the greatest God whether God exists or not.

 

[shunyadragon]

You have to admit the salvation would be something.

.\
. . . but what????

 

[Trailblazer]

Likely true, and non-believers are apparently more comfortable with their being no reward.

And that says something for good actions of non-believers that have no possibility of a reward, since they do not believe in an afterlife.

Even though Baha'is are enjoined not to do what we do for any reward in the afterlife, it is still impossible to separate the reward from the belief and the actions since we know there will be a reward for the belief and the actions. The question is: How many of us would do what we do if we did not believe there was a reward in the afterlife? Another related question is: How many of us would do good deeds and eschew bad deeds if we did not believe there was a God watching over us?

Of course, these questions could be applied to all beleivers, not just to Baha'is.

I love psychology.

 

[Jollybear]

Umm... someone who doesn't believe God exists can't rebel against God. You need to believe that something exists in order to rebel against it.

Thats not true, your still rebelling because your not ignorant of the concept of God, despite lack of belief.

Its like if someone wer ignorant of government, breaking its law is still breaking its law.

Anyhow, I think you have the impact of belief exactly backwards.

Someone who believes in a God that can swoop and fix everything whenever he chooses has less motivation to do good in the world than someone who thinks it's all up to us.

Thats a strawman argument because most religious people dont believe that and thats not there motivation. Most believe God holds us accountable. It iverlaps with ad hominum because your assuming and attacking motives rather then dealing with religious folks arguments.

By the way, that breaks the forum rules!

Someone who thinks that God is in charge and will make sure that things won't get too bad has no reason to do the things necessary to guard against catastrophe.

Same strawman, ad hom argument. Most religious people do not believe that.

Someone who sees this life as just a prelude for an unending afterlife has less reason to see this life - and the lives of others - as precious than someone who thinks that this short life is the only one we'll ever get.

That again, strawman, ad hominum arguments. Most if not almost all religious folk DO NOT BELIEVE THAT. So, stop. Deal with what they actually believe!

Someone who believes that there's an incomprehensible perfect plan behind any circumstance can be convinced to support any atrocity; this isn't the case for someone who doesn't believe in a divine planner and designer.

That again is a false accusation, strawman, ad hominum argument. Most religious people do not believe that. Deal with what we believe and say, not what we dont believe.

At best, belief in God encourages moral apathy. At its worst, it can encourage evil.

Thats false. Real belief in God encourages morality, responsibility.

I could easily fire back and say atheism encourages moral apathy and at its worst it can encourage evil, if i said it with a particular understanding of it.

But, would you like that? Of course not. So dont do it to me.

No more!

 

[MonkeyFire]

.\
. . . but what????

Safety is important. Just imagine each one of us repeating this single lifetime forever. No true justice, safety, or sanity at all.