Does it really matter if we believe in God?

[Bird123]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately because I usually post to atheists and I have a lot of atheist friends who do not think it matters if we believe in God. After all, there is no proof that God exists, so it is just as logical to say God does not exist as t is to say that God exists. There is evidence that God exists, but no proof.

So why does it matter if we believe in God? Why is it so important, or is it? This is a question I would like other Baha’is to answer, but also Christians, Muslims, Jews, or any other religious adherents.

Of course atheists and agnostics can answer too.

The second part of this question is that if God matters as much as some believers say, then why do they live for the material world and all it has to offer? Why don’t they live for God instead of the world? Why don’t they follow the teachings of their religion regarding detachment and sacrifice? This is not meant to be a criticism; it is just something I am wondering about and something to get people thinking. I mean in the Tablet of the True Seeker Baha’is are enjoined by Baha’u’llah to regard the world as utter nothingness.

“Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all else beside God as transient, and count all things save Him, Who is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 266

Notably, I do not participate in Baha’i activities so I do not know a lot about what other Baha’is think or do except what I read on forums, but most Baha’is I know seem to think I am too extreme in my views regarding detachment and sacrifice, as if I am some kind of ascetic.

Do I simply take this God stuff too seriously, or do others not take it seriously enough? What does God really expect of us? Does it even matter to God what we do? This question is for all believers, whether they have a religion or not.

A third part of this question is for believers. What do you think will be the repercussions of non-belief? By repercussions I mean what do you think will happen to nonbelievers after they die? Do you have a set belief about that? I sure don’t, but it is a big concern of mine and I have no real answers because it has not been spelled out in the scriptures of my religion, unless I am missing something. Maybe the Baha’is can fill me in if there is something I missed.

Finally, if it does not matter if we believe in God before we die, and we will all find out that God exists after we die, why even bother to believe in God? I mean most atheists I know live very moral lives, so they do not really need the teachings and laws of religions, so why does it matter if they believe in God before they die?

I have some personal reasons for asking these questions that might come out later.

The real concept of God seems to be beyond everyone. It seems The Me view and what I would want if I were God corrupts thinking and eliminates most of reality as it truly is.

My best wish is for everyone to discover it all for themselves but everyone seems so very lost. Maybe, I ought to say a few words to broaden the view.

The following is as I see it: Believing has never ever been important to God. Are there penalties for not believing? Of course not!!

God is Unconditional Love. Right? Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. God makes no rules. God makes or has no demands of us. People think there are things they can do to gain God's favor. That is mankind's petty thinking. We can count many of the other petty things mankind values: Blaming,Condemning, judging,ruling, controlling, intimidating, coercing, hating and so on. Read your religion. The petty things are all there. God is above all this. To God, it's not about God. It's about us.

This physical world exists for only one reason. It's time-based causal nature is perfect for learning. This world is no more than a Giant multilevel classroom. It's parameters along with the people around us lead us all forward in learning. We are Living our lessons. As I watch, the dynamics are simply amazing.

People choose the lessons they want to learn through their free choices. People label, hate, and condemn others as Evil. The reality is those others do not understand why their choice is bad. Believe me, they will learn. It is the only way to move forward. For those of us who must watch, it is just a reminder of what the best answers really are.

It's all so very simple. Be who you must! It's a part of the plan! Listen to the advice of others but walk your own path!. Life's lessons are best learned that way.

Remember, our Diversity is our strength. God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than anyone can have. Do we really want everyone the same? I think not.

Finally, since our choices determine our lessons, we can try to make our very best choices. In fact, the entire system is built to teach us to Love Unconditionally. We will learn this in time simply because Unconditional Love is what everyone wants to return to them.

Well, That's what I'm seeing. I have been watching, studying and learning for a very long time. Any time one widens their view,they can only see more of the picture that stares us all in the face, waiting for us to discover it.

Whew. Have I said to much? Probably so!

 

[lukethethird]

Does it really matter if we believe in God?

Who could be bothered? Too much effort.

 

[Trailblazer]

If they don't love God, treasure and trust him, that kind of 'belief' is not more than the demons 'who believe and tremble'

I fully agree, although that is still a work in progress for me.
I do draw upon the Christian strength and faith. It is rather awesome.

 

[Trailblazer]

Welcome to the forum. I see you are new. This forum format is a little different than some others and it takes some getting used to. I did not get your message if you had one for me.

 

[shunyadragon]

Whereas I am not a scientist, or scientifically inclined, I studied psychology for many years so that is my particular bent. I think about the human psyche and people and why they think and act as they do. Religion has never been of much interest to me and were it not for the Baha'i Faith and its theology of progressive revelation making logical sense to me, and the Writings of Baha'u'llah about God and Manifestations of God, I would probably be an agnostic or perhaps a deist. I certainly could never believe in one of the traditional religions because they are mutually exclusive and I detest exclusiveness....

I still see in the Baha'i Faith a light I do not find in other religions. I also have somewhat of a Buddhist perspective of the problematic nature of choices from the human perspective that 'nothing is necessary.'

I do not fit very well into the Baha'i mold, so I just do my own thing, the Trailblazer that I am....

We share some what of a similar view here.

 

[shunyadragon]

. . .

You need to reformat your [quote ] . . . [ /quote] to be readable[/quote]

 

[Trailblazer]

I still see in the Baha'i Faith a light I do not find in other religions.

Ditto on that.

I also have somewhat of a Buddhist perspective of the problematic nature of choices from the human perspective that 'nothing is necessary.'

Ditto on that too.... I love Buddhist philosophy, sometimes even more than Baha'i, but my logical mind says Baha'i has to be true...

 

[shmogie]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately because I usually post to atheists and I have a lot of atheist friends who do not think it matters if we believe in God. After all, there is no proof that God exists, so it is just as logical to say God does not exist as t is to say that God exists. There is evidence that God exists, but no proof.

So why does it matter if we believe in God? Why is it so important, or is it? This is a question I would like other Baha’is to answer, but also Christians, Muslims, Jews, or any other religious adherents.

Of course atheists and agnostics can answer too.

The second part of this question is that if God matters as much as some believers say, then why do they live for the material world and all it has to offer? Why don’t they live for God instead of the world? Why don’t they follow the teachings of their religion regarding detachment and sacrifice? This is not meant to be a criticism; it is just something I am wondering about and something to get people thinking. I mean in the Tablet of the True Seeker Baha’is are enjoined by Baha’u’llah to regard the world as utter nothingness.

“Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all else beside God as transient, and count all things save Him, Who is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 266

Notably, I do not participate in Baha’i activities so I do not know a lot about what other Baha’is think or do except what I read on forums, but most Baha’is I know seem to think I am too extreme in my views regarding detachment and sacrifice, as if I am some kind of ascetic.

Do I simply take this God stuff too seriously, or do others not take it seriously enough? What does God really expect of us? Does it even matter to God what we do? This question is for all believers, whether they have a religion or not.

A third part of this question is for believers. What do you think will be the repercussions of non-belief? By repercussions I mean what do you think will happen to nonbelievers after they die? Do you have a set belief about that? I sure don’t, but it is a big concern of mine and I have no real answers because it has not been spelled out in the scriptures of my religion, unless I am missing something. Maybe the Baha’is can fill me in if there is something I missed.

Finally, if it does not matter if we believe in God before we die, and we will all find out that God exists after we die, why even bother to believe in God? I mean most atheists I know live very moral lives, so they do not really need the teachings and laws of religions, so why does it matter if they believe in God before they die?

I have some personal reasons for asking these questions that might come out later.

You seem to have fallen into the trap that most religions set, and this is given away by your referencing atheists leading very moral lives.

The trap is, if you do good things for God, He will do good things for you. Just do enough, and you have earned Godś favor.

God through Jesus Christ says that there is nothing you can do to earn anything from God. God demands perfection because He is perfect. We are not and in ourselves can never be. We are not performing monkeyś demanding the bananna for our tricks.

At the beginning, God made it perfectly clear that humans are not immortal, and that the sentence for deviating from Gods perfect standard was death.

Being both just and merciful, God also provided a way for forgiveness and atonement for sin, for manś failure, nothing they could ever do could earn these gifts, they were given purely by Gods mercy.

Ultimately and finally, Christ received the punishment all mankind has earned, and all mankind receives what Christ earned, life, if they choose.

The first lie ever told was, you won´t die.

Failure to accept Gods gift of justice and mercy in the person of Jesus Christ, guarantee´s that one will die in their sin.

So, to your question about life after death, all who have died will be resurrected to judgement, those who have chosen to accept the judgement for their sin, will die, forever. They will cease to exist, they will disappear into oblivion.

 

[Thief]

So why does it matter if we believe in God?

I believe we stand from the body when the last breath is surrendered

heaven comes to see what stood up
and the question will be.....What do you believe?

having spent time not believing could 'prove' a problem
and the answer might be harsh

so now someone will pull out a razor and make a declaration

and I say......bring a razor?
to a sword fight?

 

[Trailblazer]

I rather love apatheism, and in that sense I of course say that it does not matter whether God exists.

It would only really matter if God has a purpose to exist.

Whether belief in his existence matters is something else entirely. It very much does... much more so, I think, than the existence itself would.

That is an interesting perspective and I guess you say that because belief can have a significant impact upon how people live their lives, whether God exists or not.

Belief in God - or as I prefer, in deities generally - is indeed significant, and meant to be so. At its best, it can be a powerful if not necessarily advisable tool for motivational and inspirational focus. Many an insight can be spurred by proper reflection on the manifestation of the sacred as divinity forms.

So, you think it is okay to believe in a God that does not exist because it can provide an motivational and inspirational focus. I suppose there could be value in that.

My gut feelling is that at some point people anthropomorphized the Sacred into this frequent perception of God as an entity with an actual humanlike will, and even humanlike flaws and needs.

There are many problems with using such a defective representation of the Sacred as the core of a doctrine with religious intentions.

That God is an entity with an actual humanlike will, and even humanlike flaws and needs is a grave misconception. That goes against everything that Baha’is believe about God.

One of those is indeed the danger of falling into actual disregard for "things of the world". We are people that exist in the world, and there is no clear reason to disregard it, let alone to flirt with arrogant despisal of it.

A religious person should not hesitate to accept his or her role in the expression of the Sacred in this world. It is, after all, where we are, and we have nothing to show to support any claims that we deserve better.

I suppose I have the tendency to despise the material world because it has not been much use to me and I do not see much that I like about it, other than the natural world, and some people in the world. It is what we have so it is what we deserve, at least for now, while we occupy it, so we should try to make the best of it, IMO.

I have trouble relating to expression of the Sacred, understanding what that is.

Speaking as a non-believer who nonetheless feels that I take god-beliefs more seriously than many a believer, I think that it would be strange and probably inappropriate for a believer to feel a duty to validate God.

No, I do not think that God needs any validation from humans.

I will go beyond that, even, and say that a healthy relationship between believer and deity probably ought to involve a lot of positive emotions and more than a little bit of trust in the deity's ability to allow for human flaws, or at least awareness and good humored acceptance of those as an unavoidable reality. Deities are not IMO supposed to be tools for nurturing guilt and anxiety.

I really like what you said above. I think that does reflect the merciful and loving deity’s attitudes but it is difficult for some of us to realize that because of our own guilt and anxiety.

As a nonbeliever, I feel pretty sure that what will happen to me will be very much what one would expect. No true metaphysical consequences, in case you are wondering.

I guess you mean no afterlife, as in a spiritual world to which our souls ascend after death of the body.

It seems to me that no one should bother to believe in God, although there sure seem to be people who come to believe on their own and should probably attempt to channel that belief in constructive ways.

No, if it is a bother I do not think anyone should believe; they should only believe if they really want to and have their own good reasons to.

Case by case situation, but those are really two very separate matters. Religion is supposed to deal with morality, although that can indeed be learned and practiced elsewhere. Belief in God is very much an accessory and optional matter, both inside and outside of religion.

That is true, religion is not necessary to have morality and belief in a God may or may not lead to moral behavior.

I hope you attain good results.

Thanks, I already have attained some by all the responses I got thus far. I learn so much from other people. I might have something more to add after I assimilate all these ideas. My head is spinning.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Yes, if your a pleasure seeker.

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't. What matters is what the belief in God results in. Child sacrifice or charity?

I fully agree with that.

It is seen as important due to the virtues assigned to religions and it's followers while vices were assigned to those that didn't believe in God, or a specific God. We have been conditioned to assume the believers are good people merely because they hold a belief we have assumed is good. Toss in religions have a done a fine job in ensuring the flock are some how special due to holding a belief about X. It creates a superiority complex.

I can agree that is what generally happens in society because believers are in the majority and they tend to feel superior even if is unspoken.

But I do not think it should be the case because I know too many atheists who are good people and live very moral lives, and they care about other people and the environment. “Belief does not make you a good person” is one of the first threads I posted on a primarily atheist religious forum I joined about five years ago. I had not previously even thought of belief and non-belief as I lived socially isolated life and did not talk to many people, and certainly not about religion or God... Now look at me.

Many would simply point out they are not here for the duration but merely living here to the best of their ability. Having to live in such a world is not a choice but circumstance.

I appreciate your pointing that out. I had never really thought of it that way.

But still, I do not think most people realize that they do not have to live for the things of the world; they do it because it is what they enjoy doing. That is what I observe about people I know; maybe things are going on that I am unaware of but I can only see what I see. I cannot read peoples’ minds.

There is a level of projection from your own bias regarding this question as you as assume intent. Now if you were to point to a person that acted religious publicly but was the opposite in private we could discuss it. However as a generalization the point is nonsense.

In a sense I do assume, not intent, but I assume that most people live for the material world, at least in the Western world. If that was not true then capitalism would not survive and thrive.

I would not know what they do privately, only publicly. What is somewhat disconcerting is what I see publicly, actions that contradict words.

Yes, I have a certain bias, but I do know religious people who live for the things of the world, even by their own admission. That does not mean they do not have a relationship with their God but it makes me wonder how important it could be when they are so focused on their physical body and material world enjoyments. What do you think when a Christian says that the purpose of life is to enjoy ourselves? I would expect that more of an atheist, but I do not know many atheists who say that, although I do know some. But there would be no reason why an atheist would not think that way, since they believe this is our one and only life. A believer by contrast..... I hope you get my point.

Projection. How do you know how people you do not actually know live their lives?

I do not know everyone, but I do know some people. See above.

It is your bias at play. Without knowing about your devotion nor others there is no conclusion to be made.

That’s true, it is my bias and I readily admit it. I can only know what I see or what I am told by people. Perhaps I jump to conclusions. Perhaps I am just too austere so anything less that than I consider self-indulgent. But I have a right to my personal opinion as long as I do not inflict it upon anyone directly by offering my judgment thus offending them. I cannot help what I think; I can only help what I say.

All that said, I realize that those worldly believers might be better people than I am, I just cannot approve of that lifestyle because it goes against everything I have ever believed in, even before I was a Baha’i, but especially after.

I am constantly being asked by believers and my atheist friends why I do not enjoy life more than I do, live life to its fullest, but there is no real way for me to explain why enjoying life simply does not matter to me. I could be enjoying life in a material sense given my financial status; I just have no interest in such a life. I don’t know if I ever did, but the interest becomes less and less every year that passes by. I sometimes think about it momentarily and then the thought dissipates.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

First, I'm going to start off by speaking in broad generalities. That means there's going to be exceptions, and there's going to need to be explanations of the complexities that are missing.

Yes, believing in God matters. I'll start off by saying that believing in a personal God matters, because we cannot experience the love, justice, and mercy of God, much less his requirements for our behavior, if he is simply a force or non-involved entity. To miss out on this is a horrible loss. I truly feel sorry for those who, through no fault of their own, simply cannot sense this sort of God.

If this cannot be managed, the next best thing is to believe in a kind of impersonal Source, be it Brahman or Tao or nameless. This too is far better than nothing, because one would believe in something greater, in service to that which underlies the entire universe. There is just something incredibly healthy about this, and I believe that a person will have a much better and more balanced life because of it.

But there are those who simply cannot believe. They do not sense God, and the arguments for his/her/its existence are not persuasive for them. It is not as if they are choosing to rebel -- this is not a choice for them. Some of these choose to live good moral lives, despite the fact that they do not believe in something greater demanding it of them. I am reminded of the atheist in Camus' "The Plague" who wanted to be a Saint even though there was no God. A priest I had the good fortune to now called this, "Living AS THOUGH God existed." It is less, but it is not without merit. In so many ways, we love God by loving our neighbor as ourselves. I think every time an Atheist shows love for another human being, he is expressing love for God, although he doesn't know it.

And then there are those, theists, pantheists and panentheists, and atheists, who choose to live as though there is no God. Their behavior is lawless. Their motto is, it's okay as long as I don't get caught. For them, others are there for their personal benefit. Such people only act morally if there are social and penal consequences. I shudder for such people. They may *say* they believe in God, but do they really? If they do, they certainly don't care about him.

Why does it have to be some black and white thing? You paint all those who willfully reject your god as being borderline criminals and sociopaths. Unfortunately for you, many of us are doing just fine without your deity. Not all of us view your deity in such glowing terms and it's strange that you cannot seem to fathom another viewpoint.

 

[Jumi]

More than that, IMO.

What we do is inherently meaningful, at least if it is intentional.

What motivates us specifically is also meaningful, arguably more so than the deed themselves.

Beliefs may be a part of that motivation, but not necessarily a valuable part of those. And if they take effort to maintain, particularly when confronted with observable fact, they are probably not a very good component for our motivations in any case.

Findings and acceptance should be distinguised here from beliefs. In the sense that I am using the word, beliefs are fairly disconnected from observable facts, including emotional and motivational facts.

There is nothing wrong with realizing and even nurturing our own emotions and involving those in our motivations. That is arguably a religious duty, even.

But we should keep a sober stance and never expect others to feel a duty to protect our beliefs. Beliefs are very personal and no one, not even ourselves, should go out of our ways in order to protect them. It is very possible that we should attempt to dispell them, even, since they may so easily distract us from fruitful, worthwhile mental states.

If someone sincerely helps me out, I am not going to criticize for it even if their motivating beliefs seemed false to me. I'm not going to point out faults of something that is positive, even if it relies on something that is important to them but that I don't believe.

I personally don't hold much to beliefs, more to practicalities. So I understand why you feel it's important to detach from beliefs. Sadly most people don't do well with reality. Take away belief and don't give anything in it's place and you might as well kick the chair under them... many are that fragile.

I've seen my beliefs crumble many times even when I was atheist. Even more so of course since I left behind something that was with me for decades. It was quite refreshing to me because I'm sort of an "accept reality" kind of guy as I thought there was a journey to truth or something like that. Have seen many claim similar "love of truth"... interesting then, that the journey rarely leads outside of the comfort zone so our desire to reality doesn't lead to consensus unless some outside structure enforces it.

 

[Trailblazer]

You seem to have fallen into the trap that most religions set, and this is given away by your referencing atheists leading very moral lives.

The trap is, if you do good things for God, He will do good things for you. Just do enough, and you have earned Godś favor.

No I do not believe that at all. I want nothing from God, not even God's Love. Whatever I do, I do because i think it is the right thing to do, the moral thing.

God through Jesus Christ says that there is nothing you can do to earn anything from God. God demands perfection because He is perfect. We are not and in ourselves can never be. We are not performing monkeyś demanding the bananna for our tricks.

I can agree with that. God gives us what we get according to His mercy, not according to His justice. Justice would be getting what we deserve, and that would not be much for most humans.

At the beginning, God made it perfectly clear that humans are not immortal, and that the sentence for deviating from Gods perfect standard was death.

Being both just and merciful, God also provided a way for forgiveness and atonement for sin, for manś failure, nothing they could ever do could earn these gifts, they were given purely by Gods mercy.

Ultimately and finally, Christ received the punishment all mankind has earned, and all mankind receives what Christ earned, life, if they choose.

The first lie ever told was, you won´t die.

That is according to the Christian doctrine of Adam and Eve, the fall and original sin, and I do not believe in that. I believe that the story of Adam and Eve was just an allegory and there was never a garden or a tree or a snake. I do not believe that man is "fallen" because Adam and Eve ate an apple off a tree.

I believe that when Adam was born and entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom (where he was in the spiritual world) and fell into the world of bondage (the material world). From the spiritual world, in the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil (the material world)... This attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in our midst and continues and endures... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and their exalted position and instead have the propensity to sin.

Failure to accept Gods gift of justice and mercy in the person of Jesus Christ, guarantee´s that one will die in their sin.

I believe that Jesus gave us His teachings and humanity thereby received the profusion of His bounties. Jesus also died on the cross so humanity could be free of sin and attain everlasting life. To be free of sin, we also have to free ourselves from the vices of the human world by turning towards the Word of God.

So, to your question about life after death, all who have died will be resurrected to judgement, those who have chosen to accept the judgement for their sin, will die, forever. They will cease to exist, they will disappear into oblivion.

I have a completely different belief about the afterlife. I do not believe physical bodies will be resurrected to judgement. Rather, I believe all human souls will ascend to the spiritual world after the physical body dies, and they will then take on a spiritual body, whether they are beleivers or non-believers. Those who were close to God will have eternal life, which is nearness to God, and those who did not know God will have a lesser existence. I cannot say what that will be like because I am not God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Good topic.

First assuming God exists for all the atheists here,God I believe would not need us or anything we could offer including our worship or belief in Him. God is complete so for Himself belief in Him doesn’t matter. But He does want to have a relationship with humanity.

Now I believe God created us because He didn’t want to keep all His Gifts and Blessings for Himself so wanted to share these things and so created us and this world and the next and many others so we can share in all His Hifts because God is generous and so He created us to be the recipients of a His generosity. He gave us life, consciousness, a mind and talents.

So why would we need to believe in God? Of what advantage could it possibly be? We’ve got freedom of choice so there’s no obligation and we were placed here on this earth without being asked so does it really make sense to punish us for disbelieving? Why give a man free will if he’s not allowed to say no without repercussions?

In the Holy Books God tells us not to force our religion on others so I doubt a god would punish us for exercising our free will.

Then what matters to God in the context of our existence?

First I believe that He is a personal God but not human, beyond description. I think Hecsees us as one family and doesn’t categories us into racial, religious or nationalities like we do.
So He wants us to be happy and share His gifts on us without forcing Himself on us.

So how does He do that? Knowing He created us with free will He can’t very well interfere with lightning and thunder everytime we do wrong things or even have world wars. What would be the point in giving us free will only to take it away when we made bad choices? He lets us learn from our mistakes like a wise Father.

But then if He doesn’t intervene is it fair to place us in this world and nearly annhilate each other again and again without offering at least loving counsel and guidance but still respecting our free will?

So He sends us Educators to offer us a better way forward but at the same time allowing us the complete freedom to reject Tyem and even kill Them.

So for each age a particular need arises and so He sends These Great Beings humbly OFFERING to us all a better way forward.

For this age when the problems are universal in nature He has sent Baha’u’llah with counsels, teachings and guidance that may help all the different races, religions and nations become like a family and live in peace and prosperity but again He has left it up to our free will to ignore, accept or reject His Educators.

Currently we have had two major wars and lots of other civil ones and still Peace has been elusive. When all else fails we can always try what God’s Educator for today advises and if it doesn’t work then go back to our own ways but for humanity’s sake don’t we owe it to each other to leave no stone unturned in the quest for world peace and prosperity?

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe we stand from the body when the last breath is surrendered...
heaven comes to see what stood up
and the question will be.....What do you believe?

having spent time not believing could 'prove' a problem
and the answer might be harsh

I cannot say for sure but that is a distinct possibility.... it might be harsh, or not.
Only God knows.

 

[blü 2]

I do not think that the criteria for deciding if it matters or not is what humans think

No one knows what God thinks ─ God neither says nor does ─ so we have no choice.

humans are fallible so they can be wrong.

Of course, all day and every day, all eras and every era. But sometimes we learn from our mistakes and as a result advance our understanding. And as someone once said, 'It's what you do with what you've got'.

I cannot say that I know if it matters to God if we believe in Him or not. [...] God wants our belief, only because it is beneficial for us to believe in Him. The reason it is beneficial is so we will know God's will for us and live according to His will.

If God wills anything for us, we have not the faintest idea what it might be. ALL our information comes from humans, and they, as you rightly point out, are fallible. (They even make up stories.)

Go well.

 

[LuisDantas]

It would only really matter if God has a purpose to exist.

Who knows?

That is an interesting perspective and I guess you say that because belief can have a significant impact upon how people live their lives, whether God exists or not.

That is indeed how I think.

So, you think it is okay to believe in a God that does not exist because it can provide an motivational and inspirational focus. I suppose there could be value in that.

I am glad that you seem to be following me so accurately.

That God is an entity with an actual humanlike will, and even humanlike flaws and needs is a grave misconception. That goes against everything that Baha’is believe about God.

Perhaps. To their credit, the Bahai that I once knew in person did not give many if any signs of holding a belief in a particularly humanlike God. On the other hand, there are significant indications online pointing to the other direction.

But I think that it is fair to say that Bahais do not all think exactly the same.

I suppose I have the tendency to despise the material world because it has not been much use to me and I do not see much that I like about it, other than the natural world, and some people in the world. It is what we have so it is what we deserve, at least for now, while we occupy it, so we should try to make the best of it, IMO.

I have trouble relating to expression of the Sacred, understanding what that is.

Sorry, I should have made an attempt to point out that this usage is personal terminology of mine. I use it in many stances where others would speak of a deity, because I want to emphasize that I do not perceive worth as arising from divine origins nor divine will.

No, I do not think that God needs any validation from humans.

I really like what you said above. I think that does reflect the merciful and loving deity’s attitudes but it is difficult for some of us to realize that because of our own guilt and anxiety.

Thanks. I must say that I am really encouraged by the apparent improvement in our mutual understanding and common ground.

I guess you mean no afterlife, as in a spiritual world to which our souls ascend after death of the body.

Correct. I do not believe in souls as such, not even in the sense that some Buddhist schools hope for. I guess that you could say that I hold an extreme reading of Anatta.

I believe in death as a true end, a supreme forgiver of sorts even. It seems to me that such a view is at once better supported by discernible facts; more hopeful and desirable than the alternatives; and easier to reconcile with the practical need for morality in this world.

No, if it is a bother I do not think anyone should believe; they should only believe if they really want to and have their own good reasons to.

Belief may feel too strong a word, at least to me.

For personal reasons I find myself wondering often in recently weeks on how children feel about the diversity of beliefs. I know of a seven years old child that is being raised in Catholicism yet was made aware of the existence of other religions. Not too long ago I told her about a Shiva song and she asked me point blank if Shiva was a God - in front of her parents, no less. I would have loved to speak at length on the matter, but I have little idea of how confortable her parents would be with that, so I decided to simply say that there are people who think of him as a God, while other people do not.

I should probably create a thread about that, come to think of it.

Fairly often I feel that children might see the diversity of beliefs as a matter of personal aesthetical preference, not to be given too much weight. Even more often I feel that such a view is appropriate for everyone, or should be.

 

[Trailblazer]

No one knows what God thinks ─ God neither says nor does ─ so we have no choice.
Of course, all day and every day, all eras and every era. But sometimes we learn from our mistakes and as a result advance our understanding. And as someone once said, 'It's what you do with what you've got'.
If God wills anything for us, we have not the faintest idea what it might be. ALL our information comes from humans, and they, as you rightly point out, are fallible. (They even make up stories.)

No, no one knows what God thinks, but we can know what God wills for humanity in every age, from what He reveals through His Messengers.

Yes, humanity learns from their mistakes, and we thereby advance our understanding and so on and so forth, and this process continues throughout the ages.

IF the Messengers of God were mere humans, and no more than humans, I would have to agree with you, that they would be just as fallible as humans, and thus there would be no reason to take them seriously.

Go well....