Does logic equal truth?

[God lover]

You're making at least two major mistakes in your reasoning:

- assuming that because you can't see how the first two options are possible, they must be impossible.
- assuming that because you can only think of 3 "main options", those are all of the options worth considering.

I'd say you're probably also engaging in special pleading by not examining your God option as critically as the other two. Can you tell us what would allow that option to be possible? And "divine mystery" or the like doesn't count as an explanation.

Well said 9/10 penguin.

I don't see how the first two options s are plausible.

A) this has all existed forever in the past

B) it came from nothing.

C) it was created.

The most rediculous thing about c) is... where did the creator come from! It's really rediculous! I can see how stupid it sounds.

They all sound impossible.

Are there any other suggestions out there?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The most rediculous thing about c) is... where did the creator come from! It's really rediculous! I can see how stupid it sounds.

Why choose the term "creator" instead of catalyst? Why presume agency?

 

[God lover]

Why choose the term "creator" instead of catalyst? Why presume agency?

Excellent. Another idea.

Could you expound catalyst. I am ignorant to this new idea of the "God" option. I am actually interested in what you mean!

Ears open. I'll take the communion wafers out that I was saving for later

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Excellent. Another idea.

Could you expound catalyst.

Of course I could and, if I had a modicum of respect for your petty games, I would.

 

[Willamena]

Haha. Actually that is my beleif. This world is impossible! Logically it makes no sense that anything exists. Great comment!

So I don't base my beliefs as much on Philosophy as I do on personal experience. But not in a "what feels best to me" kind of way. I really want to beleive what's true. Philosophy and logic are great. But I think without all the facts they only get us so far.

Problem is, this world is.

What is isn't impossible.

You may somehow believe in the impossible, but logic doesn't allow that for me.

 

[Thief]

Well said 9/10 penguin.

I don't see how the first two options s are plausible.

A) this has all existed forever in the past

B) it came from nothing.

C) it was created.

The most rediculous thing about c) is... where did the creator come from! It's really rediculous! I can see how stupid it sounds.

They all sound impossible.

Are there any other suggestions out there?

We can ask the Creator 'where' He came from ....when we meet Him.
in the meantime, that hall of mirrors question....doesn't apply to Him.

 

[Thief]

Why choose the term "creator" instead of catalyst? Why presume agency?

Spirit first.
otherwise substance first and there are problems with that notion.

substance doesn't move without 'something' to move it.
(raise finger in air and pronounce the word...science!)

dead things do not beget the living.
substance did not hold spirit until God created life in physical form.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Spirit first.
otherwise substance first and there are problems with that notion..

^ senseless drivel

 

[Thief]

^ senseless drivel

sit still and think.
no jerky knees allowed

 

[Willamena]

sit still and think.
no jerky knees allowed

"Spirit" is undefined, so nonsensical.

 

[God lover]

Problem is, this world is.

What is isn't impossible.

You may somehow believe in the impossible, but logic doesn't allow that for me.

Right. This world does exist. I agree. Why do you beleive this world exists?

 

[God lover]

Of course I could and, if I had a modicum of respect for your petty games, I would.

I'm not playing games Jayhawker. I'm serious.

Please explain your point.

 

[Willamena]

Why do you beleive this world exists?

Because it is.

I know that's tautological, but sometimes tautology can be an eye-opening thing.

 

[Shad]

Well said 9/10 penguin.

I don't see how the first two options s are plausible.

A) this has all existed forever in the past

Yet you have no issue with the incoherence of a timeless God

B) it came from nothing.

Yet you have no issues with God just existing without cause while also requiring a form of A for said God

C) it was created.

Yet you have no issues with God not being created.

The most rediculous thing about c) is... where did the creator come from! It's really rediculous! I can see how stupid it sounds.

They all sound impossible.

Are there any other suggestions out there?

No it is pointing out the special pleading by claiming everything but your belief is subject to the arguments used to argue your belief.

 

[God lover]

"Spirit" is undefined, so nonsensical.

Because it is.

I know that's tautological, but sometimes tautology can be an eye-opening thing.

Okay Willamena. Tautology. So, correct me if I'm wrong. you are saying that because you experience this reality, it is proven to exist, and therefor that proof provides total evidence and Therefor any theory thay suggest the world doesn't exist is defunct?

If that is what tautology means in this context of conversation, I agree!

 

[God lover]

I will clarify my perspective now that I have heard so many constructive replies. My terminology, ignorance and limited analogies created some confusion. Also my claims seem absurd to some. Thanks for bearing with me.

Considering what everyone has said:

My answer to the OP is now that logic does equal truth! But there are many falacies comitted by us, as our knowledge, perception and motives are limited and/or twisted. We cannot use logic to answer all truth, however, there is much we can know with certainty using logic properly. (Kind of)

There are some different types of logic. I am not well versed in the differnt types. Some deal with the soundness of theoretical arguments. Perhaps these don't lead to truth about the real reality, but this is only a part of logic and doesn't encompass the whole meaning.

In a nut shell: logic in its purest form does equal truth. It's our own perception that falls short of exact or total truths.

That's where I'm at so far.

Any key points to be added or refuted here?

 

[God lover]

Yet you have no issue with the incoherence of a timeless God

If you want to talk about timelessness then I'll just say. Time adheres to our physical universe. Time and space are entwined in some way. Gets pretty interesting. My beleif is that God pre existed time and space as a conscious being. However, I wonder if a separate set of time existed where God is or not. I don't know. I'm okay with not knowing that.

I also wonder, if time began with the big bang, is God now in time? Or is God still outside of time?

I don't know a lot.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone.

Yet you have no issues with God just existing without cause while also requiring a form of A for said God [/QUOTE]

I do have issue with this.

Yet you have no issues with God not being created.[/QUOTE]

I do have issue with God not being created in this scenario.



No it is pointing out the special pleading by claiming everything but your belief is subject to the arguments used to argue your belief.[/QUOTE]

This specific topic is only part of my total view. I'll try to explain where my beliefs come from.

If we see alien spacecraft abandoned on Mars and This spacecraft is clearly not human. We see no evidence of alien bodies. We can know these aliens exist because of the evidence in front of us. Even if we can't explain where they came from.

I do think the God scenario is most likely. I beleive it. There are a lot of reasons why.

- History
- teachings of Jesus
- bibles ability to make sense of this world
- the complexity on earth as discovered by science
- personal experience

The one that takes the cake for me is personal experience. But that offers little to another person.

That's where I'm at.

Not trying to beat you in an argument. Just saying my heart. It's where I'm at so far.

 

[Willamena]

Okay Willamena. Tautology. So, correct me if I'm wrong. you are saying that because you experience this reality, it is proven to exist, and therefor that proof provides total evidence and Therefor any theory thay suggest the world doesn't exist is defunct?

If that is what tautology means in this context of conversation, I agree!

Existence isn't theoretical--rather, theories exist. What is existence to you?

 

[Thief]

"Spirit" is undefined, so nonsensical.

Existence isn't theoretical--rather, theories exist. What is existence to you?

the ability to say ....I AM.....makes sense to me.

so....back at you......what is existence to you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well said 9/10 penguin.

I don't see how the first two options s are plausible.

A) this has all existed forever in the past

B) it came from nothing.

C) it was created.

The most rediculous thing about c) is... where did the creator come from! It's really rediculous! I can see how stupid it sounds.

They all sound impossible.

Are there any other suggestions out there?

The important question is this: can you be sure that there aren't?

If it seems like every possibility is impossible, then either:

- Our judgement of what's possible and impossible must be wrong, or
- There are possibilities we haven't considered.

These might still be true even if you have an option that seems possible.