Does logic equal truth?

[NightDreamer]

Yep.


I know there is no singular method. In my field, for example, I use methods that can't be used in certain other sciences, and in other sciences methods are used that would be useless in mine. Also, even disregarding non-classical logics (many-valued logics, modal logic, fuzzy set theory, quantum logic, etc.), using logic is only as good as the soundness of the premises employed.

Exactly, but if you keep regressing arguments back you will realize that they are based entirely on human thought. So basically we can only tell that we think something. That is the only truth.

The only truth is that your thoughts exist.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Exactly, but if you keep regressing arguments back you will realize that they are based entirely on human thought. So basically we can only tell that we think something. That is the only truth.

Speaking of regress, if indeed "we can only tell think we think something" is "the only truth", then this is only true if regardless of what anybody things it remains the only truth. Which means it is true regardless of whatever anybody thinks. Which makes it false. Much like your assertion that

Since everything COULD be fake therefore nothing is fact.

If this is true (if it is fact), then it is necessarily false, since it is a statement that requires it can't be fact.

You are going to have quite a difficult time asserting that logic, rationality, critical reasoning, etc., can, from a premise that there exists no facts or objective truth, determine that such a premise can possibly be anything other than self-defeating.

The only truth is that your thoughts exist.

That isn't my thought, in which case it isn't true. Put differently, if that proposition is true, then it is true iff [if and only if] it is false (alternatively, it is conditionally true depending upon my thought, and as my thought is it isn't true it is false)

 

[NightDreamer]

It is very simple:

I know there are thoughts I experience.

I do not know where they come from, what they are, or if others have them; but i experience them.

I can exam these thoughts and have beliefs from these thoughts but not truths from them

 

[God lover]

J

Reminds me of something...
“One word, Ma'am,” he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. “One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things—trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's a small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say.”

beleive g I have 2 legs is one thing, Narnia, quite another.

However, should I encounter Aslan, then I am likely to beleive the entire set of Narnia books, at leat as a writer's interpretation of something real. It would stand to reason that if I see Aslan today, the backdrop to His existence is real.

I would assert that God is a real and tangible being who is active in this world. You will get no proof out of me. I can give you my testimony. His Spirit is real. It can be known by the heart (analogy individuals spirit).

Oh yeah. I just went there. Hehe

But seriously I want to say to anyone who would hear. God is totally real and you can know God for yourself. Take God up on it. That's why we are here. Don't miss out on a relationship with your creator. It's so good. So so good. Sincerely.

 

[God lover]

It is very simple:

I know there are thoughts I experience.

I do not know where they come from, what they are, or if others have them; but i experience them.

I can exam these thoughts and have beliefs from these thoughts but not truths from them

If you know there are thoughts. Isn't that a truth claim?

 

[NightDreamer]

J
beleive g I have 2 legs is one thing, Narnia, quite another.

However, should I encounter Aslan, then I am likely to beleive the entire set of Narnia books, at leat as a writer's interpretation of something real. It would stand to reason that if I see Aslan today, the backdrop to His existence is real.

I would assert that God is a real and tangible being who is active in this world. You will get no proof out of me. I can give you my testimony. His Spirit is real. It can be known by the heart (analogy individuals spirit).

Oh yeah. I just went there. Hehe

But seriously I want to say to anyone who would hear. God is totally real and you can know God for yourself. Take God up on it. That's why we are here. Don't miss out on a relationship with your creator. It's so good. So so good. Sincerely.

So you think that no Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. Was moved in the spirit by their religions?

 

[NightDreamer]

If you know there are thoughts. Isn't that a truth claim?

I know it to be true, but I cannot prove it to be true to you. I have to believe it is true for you based of it's high probability.

 

[God lover]

I know it to be true, but I cannot prove it to be true to you. I have to believe it is true for you based of it's high probability.

Okay, interesting.

So, if I know something is true, but I can't prove it is true, does that mean I shouldn't beleive it.

Or

Can I know something that I can't prove?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

J
beleive g I have 2 legs is one thing, Narnia, quite another.

Not the point. The point is that, confronted with the possibility that everything Jill, Eustace, and Puddleglum think to be real is actually false, Puddleglum recognizes that if reality is in fact the dismal alternative presented, nothing is gained by believing this but much is lost. Likewise, continuing to believe in the possible fantasy of what they believe to be reality involves no losses, while rejecting it does.

Personally, I can't understand why one so learned and so familiar with theological and philosophical tradition would argue that it is preferable to believe lies because they are appealing than follow Nietzsche, Camus, and Sartre in acknowledging the endless darkness which follows from the void of a meaningless, purposeless, and finite existence. Even Paul had the wherewithal to acknowledge that if certain articles of faith were not true, then the whole of faith in Christ and the Jesus movement would be in vain.

 

[God lover]

Not the point. The point is that, confronted with the possibility that everything Jill, Eustace, and Puddleglum think to be real is actually false, Puddleglum recognizes that if reality is in fact the dismal alternative presented, nothing is gained by believing this but much is lost. Likewise, continuing to believe in the possible fantasy of what they believe to be reality involves no losses, while rejecting it does.

Personally, I can't understand why one so learned and so familiar with theological and philosophical tradition would argue that it is preferable to believe lies because they are appealing than follow Nietzsche, Camus, and Sartre in acknowledging the endless darkness which follows from the void of a meaningless, purposeless, and finite existence. Even Paul had the wherewithal to acknowledge that if certain articles of faith were not true, then the whole of faith in Christ and the Jesus movement would be in vain.

Woah.

I thought it was a mockery of believing the Narnia stories where true. Who was it a quote from?

So I took it as a mockery of Christianity.

And I spoke from that place.

Anyway, without looking back.

I don't want to beleive anything false. Even if it feels good or helps me navigate this life. To be honest, being a beleiver in Jesus is very hard sometimes. I want to beleive in truth. As much of it as I can gather. Though I'll never see the whole picture before my flesh rots of my skeleton.

I am always learning more, from everyone. The things that seem to be valid truths I hold in my hand. But I try to hold them loosely so as not to become a rigid stone.

Jesus seems quite real to me and continues to stand the test of my perceptions of reality.

Anyways. All in good taste

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So, if I know something is true, but I can't prove it is true, does that mean I shouldn't beleive it.

Or

Can I know something that I can't prove?

Wouldn't that depend on how "know" is defined and on what "know" entails.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would assert that God is a real and tangible being who is active in this world. You will get no proof out of me. I can give you my testimony. His Spirit is real. It can be known by the heart (analogy individuals spirit).

What's the difference between "knowing by the heart" and a gut feeling?

Is there any other tangible thing you believe in that you only experience through your "heart"? If God is tangible, why wouldn't there be tangible evidence for him?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Who was it a quote from? [

C.S. Lewis.

Link to my post quoted below

Why do all the prophets die?
We hate the Truth and love the Lie

I've always respected C. S. Lewis, and I believe him to be the greatest apologist of the 20th century. But (like many) I was first exposed to him through the chronicles of Narnia which my father read to us. There is a scene in The Silver Chair in which the evil queen of an underground realm is playing mind games with our heroes. She is trying to convince them that this overland, with its sun and all the things they describe is pure fantasy. The allegory is clear, but I don't know why Lewis has one of our heroes (Puddleglum, as gloomy as the name sounds) say the following:
“One word, Ma'am,” he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. “One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things—trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's a small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say.”


Paul wrote that if Jesus did not rise, the faith of Christ's followers was in vain. Lewis himself, in the Last Battle, portrays the dwarves as "none so blind as they that will not see." So why would a highly educated Christian apologist, thoroughly familiar with theology and philosophy from the ancient Greeks through the scholastics to the modern and early modern philosophers, believe that living a lie would be better than the truth? Sartre and even Nietzsche wrote about how devastating the cultural death of God was, yet here we find one who is at least their equal essentially arguing that if Christianity is wrong, if it is false, it's better to believe in the lie that comforts than the truth that hurts. That isn't faith through reason, but folly.

END QUOTE

 

[Willamena]

You have to choose there is no reason to take life seriously YOU must choose to.

Why have you switched topic to talk about life? I've no problem taking life seriously.

 

[Shad]

J
beleive g I have 2 legs is one thing, Narnia, quite another.

However, should I encounter Aslan, then I am likely to beleive the entire set of Narnia books, at leat as a writer's interpretation of something real. It would stand to reason that if I see Aslan today, the backdrop to His existence is real.

I would assert that God is a real and tangible being who is active in this world. You will get no proof out of me. I can give you my testimony. His Spirit is real. It can be known by the heart (analogy individuals spirit).

Oh yeah. I just went there. Hehe

But seriously I want to say to anyone who would hear. God is totally real and you can know God for yourself. Take God up on it. That's why we are here. Don't miss out on a relationship with your creator. It's so good. So so good. Sincerely.

The hallucinations and/or delusion people experience are real to them. However this does not make either anything but a product of the mind or issues with the mind. This does not make the experience of a dog attacking you real, happened to a friend of mine. There was no dog attacking him, 3 other and myself were there. No amount opening myself to being attacked by a dog is going to make a dog magically appear and attack me.

 

[God lover]

C.S. Lewis.

Why do all the prophets die?
We hate the Truth and love the Lie

I've always respected C. S. Lewis, and I believe him to be the greatest apologist of the 20th century. But (like many) I was first exposed to him through the chronicles of Narnia which my father read to us. There is a scene in The Silver Chair in which the evil queen of an underground realm is playing mind games with our heroes. She is trying to convince them that this overland, with its sun and all the things they describe is pure fantasy. The allegory is clear, but I don't know why Lewis has one of our heroes (Puddleglum, as gloomy as the name sounds) say the following:
“One word, Ma'am,” he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. “One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things—trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's a small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say.”


Paul wrote that if Jesus did not rise, the faith of Christ's followers was in vain. Lewis himself, in the Last Battle, portrays the dwarves as "none so blind as they that will not see." So why would a highly educated Christian apologist, thoroughly familiar with theology and philosophy from the ancient Greeks through the scholastics to the modern and early modern philosophers, believe that living a lie would be better than the truth? Sartre and even Nietzsche wrote about how devastating the cultural death of God was, yet here we find one who is at least their equal essentially arguing that if Christianity is wrong, if it is false, it's better to believe in the lie that comforts than the truth that hurts. That isn't faith through reason, but folly.

END QUOTE

If that is C.S. Lewis opinion, I personally disagree with him. I would rather know my time is short and there is no God or future after this. True, if I had the choice I'd pick the Christian narative. But it ain't my choice. My beleifs don't effect the truth. I've long desires truth over fantasy.

 

[Curious George]

. I've long desire[d] truth over fantasy.

Easy to say, hard to say truthfully.

 

[Willamena]

It is very simple:

I know there are thoughts I experience.

I do not know where they come from, what they are, or if others have them; but i experience them.

I can exam these thoughts and have beliefs from these thoughts but not truths from them

You have to make up your mind, for your own sake, and the sake of your arguments: is there truth or isn't there? In one breathe you declare thought the only truth, and in the next deny any truth.

 

[God lover]

You have to make up your mind, for your own sake, and the sake of your arguments: is there truth or isn't there? In one breathe you declare thought the only truth, and in the next deny any truth.

I think a good test of truth would be if more than one person can verify a fact. Or if a fact can be replicated.

It Doesn't mean a hermit in the woods who sees a woodpecker fly by is hallucinating, but without someone to verify it, others might be less likely to beleive him.

 

[Willamena]

I think a good test of truth would be if more than one person can verify a fact. Or if a fact can be replicated.

It Doesn't mean a hermit in the woods who sees a woodpecker fly by is hallucinating, but without someone to verify it, others might be less likely to beleive him.

I think that's the worst test of truth, but that's just me. For instance, what if everyone else in the world were killed by aliens. Would there be no more truth? Why should truth rely on other people? And what about the truth of the test--if there's no other people, does the test become a lie?