• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Does might make right?

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Consider the following Scriptures:

Romans 9 said:
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Do Christians interpret that as meaning that might makes right?
 
Last edited:

footprints

Well-Known Member
Consider the following Scriptures:



Do Christians interpret that as meaning that might makes right?

Simply put humans can jusify just about anything, providing they have something to relate and associate to.

Christians on the other hand, have a greater teaching which to follow as Jesus changed that position and suggested that people love their enemies (which means don't have any enemies, even if another person or group of people want to be your enemy) and replace all this smiting. That war only begets war, abuse only begets abuse, et al.

Human intelligence though, tells us a different story. If you turn the other cheek to an extremist, they are more than likely going to belt that side of your face as well. Their brain so twisted and distorted, they are not capable of learning through intelligence of what the better teaching is, and even if they do conclude it is a better teaching, will twist this type of humility around to a Trojan Horse scenario and a wolf in sheeps clothing.

We cannot get parents to stop hitting children, the simple reason being, fear, intimidation, standover and bullying tactics work, and is by far the fastest method of getting people to do what you want, and of controlling them. The dumbest, most inane method, albeit it is the fastest and definately works, as many parents will testify to.

People in general do not need the bible to justify that might means right, life testifies to this point and gives it enough evidence.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Originally Posted by Romans 9

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Well, I can't speak for all Christians but I believe that passage is not about HUMAN might - it's about God's omnipotence.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Kathryn said:
Well, I can't speak for all Christians but I believe that passage is not about HUMAN might - it's about God's omnipotence.

I agree. Do you believe that God's power justifies what he does?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I agree. Do you believe that God's power justifies what he does?


God doesn't have to be justified.

It's like this:

I love my dogs. I know what's best for them. I know a whole LOT more about the world in general than they know. But I love them and I respect their rights as God's creatures. I would never, EVER mistreat them.

However, sometimes I load them up and take them to a place where people hold them down and stick things up their butts, and stick them with sharp needles, and put muzzles on them and imprison them. Sometimes I leave them there in a cage for several days. Sometimes these terrible people there actually cut into my dogs' bodies and take ORGANS out! And a couple of times in my life, I've taken a beloved dog to that same place and held her while the mean man there actually killed her.

And guess what - when I do these things, I don't even owe my dog an explanation.

My wisdom far surpasses the wisdom of my dogs in these matters. In this world, they will never understand some of my actions toward them and toward other dogs.

I believe that God is omnipotent and utterly, completely holy. His holiness and wisdom so far surpasses mine and my understanding of the world, that I cannot grasp the full magnitude of His actions.

And He doesn't owe me an explanation either.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
God doesn't have to be justified.

It's like this:

I love my dogs. I know what's best for them. I know a whole LOT more about the world in general than they know. But I love them and I respect their rights as God's creatures. I would never, EVER mistreat them.

However, sometimes I load them up and take them to a place where people hold them down and stick things up their butts, and stick them with sharp needles, and put muzzles on them and imprison them. Sometimes I leave them there in a cage for several days. Sometimes these terrible people there actually cut into my dogs' bodies and take ORGANS out! And a couple of times in my life, I've taken a beloved dog to that same place and held her while the mean man there actually killed her.

And guess what - when I do these things, I don't even owe my dog an explanation.

My wisdom far surpasses the wisdom of my dogs in these matters. In this world, they will never understand some of my actions toward them and toward other dogs.

I believe that God is omnipotent and utterly, completely holy. His holiness and wisdom so far surpasses mine and my understanding of the world, that I cannot grasp the full magnitude of His actions.

And He doesn't owe me an explanation either.

Beautifully put, as always.
 

dtackett

Member
I don't interpret it as a might equals right passage either. I interpret it as God does what is in his nature to do, and we do not posses the facilities to understand or question productively that nature. It also alludes to the power we can recieve through acceptance of God's will in our life. Not to say God should not be questioned or an attempt shouldn't be made to understand God. I do like the example Kathryn made.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
Answering the thread title, in a human sense - yes. In an ethical/moral sense not to me.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Kathryn said:
God doesn't have to be justified.

It that is true, then God's actions would be justified no matter who he is, and no matter what he did. Since you are fallible and imperfect, you might be wrong about the existence of the God of the Bible, and God might be some other God. If that is the case, if some other God sends everyone to hell for eternity, according to your argument, he would not need justification, but you would not be able to love that God, which indicates that your main concern is personal self-interest, not justifying what God does. Even if a God inspired the Bible, you cannot be certain that he will not send everyone to hell. If he does, according to your argument, he would not need justification, but you would not be able to love him.

Paul basically says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is actually God who masquerades as an angel of light, how could Paul have known that?

The simple truth is that as a last resort if the God of the Bible did not show up after you died, you would accept a comfortable eternal life from any being, even from an alien if he were able to accomplish that.

Why do you think that so many people have made up religions?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Kathryn said:
I love my dogs. I know what's best for them. I know a whole LOT more about the world in general than they know. But I love them and I respect their rights as God's creatures. I would never, EVER mistreat them.

Unfortunately, God does not love animals and respect their rights since he frequently injures and kills them.

Please reply to my previous post.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
It that is true, then God's actions would be justified no matter who he is, and no matter what he did. Since you are fallible and imperfect, you might be wrong about the existence of the God of the Bible, and God might be some other God. If that is the case, if some other God sends everyone to hell for eternity, according to your argument, he would not need justification, but you would not be able to love that God, which indicates that your main concern is personal self-interest, not justifying what God does. Even if a God inspired the Bible, you cannot be certain that he will not send everyone to hell. If he does, according to your argument, he would not need justification, but you would not be able to love him.

Paul basically says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is actually God who masquerades as an angel of light, how could Paul have known that?

The simple truth is that as a last resort if the God of the Bible did not show up after you died, you would accept a comfortable eternal life from any being, even from an alien if he were able to accomplish that.

Why do you think that so many people have made up religions?

I can assure you that an omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing God does not have to justify His actions.

I may have many misconceptions and misunderstandings about God - in fact, I can pretty much be sure I do. You do too. We all do.

As for "not being able to love that God" and "your main concern is personal self-interest, not justifying what God does," I have not tried to justify what God does or doesn't do. In fact, I've specifically said that He doesn't need justification.

The love I have for God is not some sweetness and light mamsy pamsy sentimental pablum. It's more along the lines of awe. I do not fully understand His ways - and I don't have to.

See - you are leaving out an integral part of a Christian's relationship with God. You are leaving out faith. Without understanding faith, you cannot understand the relationship.

If he does, according to your argument, he would not need justification, but you would not be able to love him.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say this - YOU did. This is not my argument - it's your attempt to MAKE it my argument.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Kathryn said:
As for "not being able to love that God" and "your main concern is personal self-interest, not justifying what God does," I have not tried to justify what God does or doesn't do. In fact, I've specifically said that He doesn't need justification.

No, you did try to justify God's actions by claiming that he is all-powerful and all-knowing. That implies that if he was not all-powerful and all-knowing, his actions would not be justified, meaning that you essentially said "God's actions are justified because he is all-powerful and all-knowing."

I would never be able to love and admire any being just because of his power and knowledge. Power and knowledge can be misused. Your missing ingredient is "good character."

Katharyn said:
The love I have for God is not some sweetness and light mamsy pamsy sentimental pablum. It's more along the lines of awe. I do not fully understand His ways - and I don't have to.


I am most awed by good character. There is nothing admirable about having power and knowing facts, but humans typically admire powerful athletes and very intelligent people. In one of the Harry Potter movies, the wizard Dumbledore essentially said "Harry, what is most important in life is not the abilities that you have, but the choices that you make." Indeed, what a marvelous philosophy for life.

If God doesn't need justification, then the same argument would apply no matter who God really is, and no matter what he does. If God ends up sending everyone to hell, according to your argument, that would be appropriate because God is all-powerful and all-knowing, but you would not be able to love him. Thus, your love for God depends upon your personal self-interest, not upon your claim that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. The simple truth is that you, or anyone else for that matter, would accept a comfortable eternal life from any source, even from an alien, if there were not any other options. Due to personal self-interest, it is not nearly as important "who" gives you a comfortable eternal life as it is that you "get" a comfortable eternal life. If a man wins a lottery, he couldn't care less who give him his money.

Kathryn said:
You are leaving out an integral part of a Christian's relationship with God. You are leaving out faith. Without understanding faith, you cannot understand the relationship.


The New Testament shows that Jesus used lots of physical evidence to convince people to accept him when they would not accept him based upon his words alone. God has that option today, but refuses to use it even though he knows that it would frequently work if he used it. His stubborness and dictatorial ways will cause many people to needlessly spend eternity in hell without parole. Surely no man can morally be sent to hell for refusing to accept evidence that he would accept if he was aware of it.

Consider the following Scriptures from the NASB:

John 10:37-38

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Now how could Jesus had said that and criticized Thomas for asking for physical evidence?

Faith is an obvious necessity for religions that cannot produce their Gods in physical form.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Unfortunately, God does not love animals and respect their rights since he frequently injures and kills them.

Please reply to my previous post.

Heads up - I am in the middle of moving, so for the next week or so if I don't respond immediately to your posts, it's because I'm preoccupied. Just wanted you to know.

God allows us free will - otherwise we would be nothing more than robots. Also, we live in a world that is tainted by sin and death. This is a temporary state but it's reality. So - people, animals, plants all die.

God allows us to make decisions and to experience the ramifications of our actions - whether good or bad. Those around us - including our neighbors, children, plants and animals - also experience ramifications from our actions. This is a natural outgrowth of free will. As I said, the other alternative is automation - and what's the point of that?

Yin and yang, baby - take the good with the bad.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Kathryn said:
Heads up - I am in the middle of moving, so for the next week or so if I don't respond immediately to your posts, it's because I'm preoccupied. Just wanted you to know.

Ok, when you get some extra time, please reply to my post #13. Happy moving.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
would never be able to love and admire any being just because of his power and knowledge. Power and knowledge can be misused. Your missing ingredient is "good character."


I believe that God is omnipotent and utterly, completely holy. His holiness and wisdom so far surpasses mine and my understanding of the world, that I cannot grasp the full magnitude of His actions.

I believe I addressed your issue with "good character" right there.

If God ends up sending everyone to hell, according to your argument, that would be appropriate because God is all-powerful and all-knowing, but you would not be able to love him. Thus, your love for God depends upon your personal self-interest, not upon your claim that God is all-powerful and all-knowing.

You keep saying this, as if repeating it over and over will make it true. This is not a logical statement and not only did I never say it, I never implied it, and I don't believe it. You conveniently ignored my opening statement earlier in the thread that addressed the utter holiness of God - and holiness and wisdom are the two most integral components of GOOD CHARACTER. I am in awe of God's HOLINESS and OMNIPOTENCE - not simply His "intelligence and athletic prowess."

I don't know much about you, but it seems you've latched on to some argument you heard or read somewhere about why non Christians think Christians love God. Why don't you LISTEN to a Christian who is explaining why she is a Christian who has dedicated her life to God, rather than trying to impose your own flawed argument on her motives?

The New Testament shows that Jesus used lots of physical evidence to convince people to accept him when they would not accept him based upon his words alone. God has that option today, but refuses to use it even though he knows that it would frequently work if he used it. His stubborness and dictatorial ways will cause many people to needlessly spend eternity in hell without parole. Surely no man can morally be sent to hell for refusing to accept evidence that he would accept if he was aware of it.

God is not a vending machine - there at your command to "prove Himself." Have you considered the concept that He has proven Himself and that you have simply rejected that proof? What do you want - magic tricks?

Job 38
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:

2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?
8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?
12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death [b] ?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 "Can you bind the beautiful [c] Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons [d]
or lead out the Bear [e] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's [f] dominion over the earth?
34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?
36 Who endowed the heart [g] with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind [h] ?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket? 41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Job 39


1 "Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5 "Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied his ropes?
6 I gave him the wasteland as his home,
the salt flats as his habitat.
7 He laughs at the commotion in the town;
he does not hear a driver's shout.
8 He ranges the hills for his pasture
and searches for any green thing.
9 "Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will he stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold him to the furrow with a harness?
Will he till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on him for his great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to him?
12 Can you trust him to bring in your grain
and gather it to your threshing floor?
13 "The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
but they cannot compare with the pinions and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.
19 "Do you give the horse his strength
or clothe his neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make him leap like a locust,
striking terror with his proud snorting?
21 He paws fiercely, rejoicing in his strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 He laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
he does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against his side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement he eats up the ground;
he cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet he snorts, 'Aha!'
He catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
26 "Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread his wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build his nest on high?
28 He dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is his stronghold.
29 From there he seeks out his food;
his eyes detect it from afar. 30 His young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there is he."
Job 40


1 The LORD said to Job:
2 "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!"
3 Then Job answered the LORD :
4 "I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more."
6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:
7 "Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 "Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,
12 look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15 "Look at the behemoth, [a]
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength he has in his loins,
what power in the muscles of his belly!
17 His tail [b] sways like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
18 His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like rods of iron.
19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
20 The hills bring him their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants he lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround him.
23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed;
he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth. 24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes, [c]
or trap him and pierce his nose?
Job 41


1 "Can you pull in the leviathan [a] with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?
6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.
13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?
14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
15 His back has [b] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.
22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.
23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.
29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is his equal—
a creature without fear. 34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud."
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to Kathryn: Since I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 30 years, I know the Bible very well, so I do not need a lesson in basic Christian theology. In addition, I have debated the Bible extensively for over 15 years, which has given me a lot of additional knowledge about the Bible. I do appreciate your good intentions, but merely quoting the Bible will not do you any good. Any follower of any religion could show up and quote other religious texts, but what would that accomplish?

Do you believe that God inspired and preserved the original texts free of errors except for obvious scribal and copyist errors?
 
Last edited:

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Message to Kathryn: Since I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 30 years, I know the Bible very well, so I do not need a lesson in basic Christian theology. In addition, I have debated the Bible extensively for over 15 years, which has given me a lot of additional knowledge about the Bible. I do appreciate your good intentions, but merely quoting the Bible will not do you any good.

I'm not giving you a theology lesson. You asked a basic theological question though and I thought we were discussing it.

I quoted Job 38-42 because you brought up the question of God's power and might and man's challenge to God to prove Himself, and that passage directly addresses the issue. In fact, that passage is AMAZING and very fitting for our discussion.

But I didn't simply quote the bible - I have directly answered your questions verbatim as well.

If you want to debate biblical principles with a Christian, be prepared to be presented with biblical passages. Our faith is built partly upon the truths represented in the Bible and you cannot expect to debate theological issues with Christians without the bible as part of the discussion.
 
Top