Kathryn said:
God doesn't need justification.
Agnostic75 said:
No, you did try to justify God's actions by claiming that he is all-powerful and all-knowing. That implies that if he was not all-powerful and all-knowing, his actions would not be justified, meaning that you essentially said "God's actions are justified because he is all-powerful and all-knowing."
Kathryn said:
You keep saying this, as if repeating it over and over will make it true. This is not a logical statement and not only did I never say it, I never implied it, and I don't believe it. You conveniently ignored my opening statement earlier in the thread that addressed the utter holiness of God - and holiness and wisdom are the two most integral components of GOOD CHARACTER. I am in awe of God's HOLINESS and OMNIPOTENCE - not simply His "intelligence and athletic prowess."
[Holiness is] the power, being, or realm understood by religious persons to be at the core of existence and to have a transformative effect on their lives and destinies. Other terms, such as holy, divine, transcendent, ultimate being (or reality), mystery, and perfection (or purity) have been used for this domain. "Sacred" is also an important technical term in the scholarly study and interpretation of religions.
I believe that God is holy based on my life experiences, my observations, my studies, and my faith.
But you are still trying to justify God's actions. "All-knowing," "omnipotent," and "holy" are all justifications for God's actions. If you believed that God did not have those attributes, you would not claim that he does not need justification. You have clearly made a case that God's attributes justify what he does, but that doesn't work. If God sends everyone to hell, he would be a liar, but wouldn't he still be holy, all-powerful, and all-knowing? If not, why not? Surely the main issue for you is your own personal self-interest, not who God really is, and not whether or not he created the universe. You would gladly accept a comfortable eternal life from any being, perfect or imperfect, whether he was a God, an alien, or a human, as long as he was able to provide you with a comfortable eternal life, assuming that you died, your spirit and consciousness survived, and the God of the Bible did not show up.
As far as "have a transformative effect on their lives and destinies," you ought to know that followers of many other religions have made the same claim. I remember a testimony that I read decades ago from a female member of the Baha'i religion. She said that when she was shopping for a worldview, she came into contact with some Christians. She said that the Christians did not have good character, and did not treat her like she wanted to be treated, and that she later made contact with some members of the Baha'i religion who treated her very well. She said that she became a member of the Baha'i religion and had some wonderful, transformative spiritual experiences. You would not be in a position to judge her honesty and integrity, the validity of her spiritual experiences, and her desire to know the truth.
If a God inspired the Bible, he withholds evidence that would convince more people to accept him if they were aware of it. Morally, no man can be sent to hell for refusing to accept evidence that he would accept if he was aware of it, but because of your own personal self-interest, you endorse God's plan to send many people to hell for eternity without parole. Please be advised that nothing could be more unmerciful than sending people to hell for eternity without parole.
Consider the following Scriptures:
Matthew 26:24
"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."
Revelation 9:1-6
"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."
Revelation 14:8-11
"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Surely a loving God did not inspire those Scriptures. The best explanation is that hateful Bible writers wanted God to get even with their enemies, and made up stories that said that God would punish their enemies. Those texts do not necessarily have to be deliberate lies. They might be innocent but inaccurate revealtions. Over the centuries, many theists of many religions have had innocent but inaccurate revelations.
Old Testament prophecies are the same same situation. The Tyre prophecy is a good example. Ezekiel was jealous of Tyre's wealth, and wanted God to punish Tyre. Consider the following Scriptures:
Ezekiel 26:2-3
"Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up."
That was Ezekiel's anger, not God's anger. If God had been angry with Tyre, it is doubtful that he would have taken centuries to defeat Tyre. Alexander finally defeated the island part of Tyre centuries after the Trye prophecy was written.
Ezekiel says that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre. There are not any historical records that indicate that that happened. In addition, historical records do not indicate that the Ten Plagues in Egypt occured. If the Ten Plagues in Egypt occured, they would easily have been the biggest news stories in the entire world. The stories would have spread all over the Middle East and beyond. Historians would have recorded the strories. Egypt would have ceased to be a major power in the Middle East.
Obviously, the Bible is not a trustworthy source of information.
