That verse is about Judgement day ,and God will call every nations leader, so it's about leaders.
I don't believe in Mahdi or whatever names you posted.
it's just insert names does not exist in Quran.
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Does Original Islam teach Mahdi and return of Christ?
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
That verse is about Judgement day ,and God will call every nations leader, so it's about leaders.
I don't believe in Mahdi or whatever names you posted.
it's just insert names does not exist in Quran.
One of the Islamic fundamentals, is the belief in the Resurrection of the Dead, at the day of Judgement...
It especially makes clear all the prophets shall return; why are you determined Yeshua will not return at the day of Judgement?
In my opinion.
There are many scholars , so I pick close one to the truth to me.
We were on agreement in my thread about Quran never mentionned about return of Jesus(pbuh).
Quran clearly said Jesus(pbuh) is dead,never mentionned that he will return. claims of some scholars are came from some fake Hadiths.
No,I did not said Jesus(pbuh) will not return at,I said before "in this life".One of the Islamic fundamentals, is the belief in the Resurrection of the Dead, at the day of Judgement...
It especially makes clear all the prophets shall return; why are you determined Yeshua will not return at the day of Judgement?
In my opinion.
Because the verse is talking about judgment. next verses are just clear it more
We all will resurected from death,includes the prophets and messengers.
The idea of using 'this life', as if somehow things stop or are separate...
The things portrayed in the Quran are just going to continue to happen within this reality, there will be a new earth here; here is going to be burned at the presence of the Lord.
The reason i said about no death with God, is not because of who Yeshua is; yet that God creates life, and the reality for us to exist within, thus there is no death if someone is with God.
Yeshua made a point of it isn't the Resurrection of the Dead, it is the Resurrection of the Living, as God is the God of Jacob, Issac, and Abraham.
In my opinion.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Let's read the verse more acurately. It does not say God calls every nation's leader. It says God calls every nation to 'Imam of their Time' (Imam-i Zaman). Not ImamS. One Imam. If this verse was about the previous Prophets who had been resurrected, it would not say Imam of 'their time'. because those would be Prophets of the Past. Not Imam of their time. The expression 'Their time' implies that, it is a new Imam, who appears in the time of future nations. Hadith of Prophet and Sadigh logically make sense too my friend.
It is totally fine to be free to choose what you like to believe.
However, even if the verse does not have the name of Mahdi in the Quran explicitly, it does not mean it is false, because Allah says some of its verses are unclear (Mutishabihat). Moreover, the word 'the Qaim' is in the Quran. It means the One Who rises. Now, when was God sleep or dead, so that He rises? Or is He down or low, that He must rise? So, this Name can only be referring to when He raises a Person, as a guidance for the people of the time. How else could God be called Al-Qaim?!
Remember in the other thread there was a verse about 'Witness of Prophet', and 'Book'. Some Traditions say, it is Ali who has knowledge of the Quran , but You said 'Witness' is Rabbies, and 'book' is 'Bible'. So, that verse was also unclear, and we just had to insert names in the verse for 'Witness', and 'Book'. The verse does not say explicitly 'Rabbie', and 'Bible'. Neither it says Ali, and Quran.
Some of the verses of Quran are unclear. They are in the form of allusions. It does not give the names or details. This is why Allah had already said, some of its verses are Mutishabihat. None knows their interpretation, except God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge. But we believe in all of them, clear or unclear verses.
So, why not use Traditions of Prophet and Imams for interpretations instead of using opinions of ordinary scholars. Can you name one scholar who you believe is well-grounded in knowledge?
But Prophet Muhammad and Imams are well-grounded in knowledge and we have evidence for that from Quran and Traditions.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I still agree that Quran does not say that Jesus physically returns from sky. But some verses of Quran say, [Spirit of] God', comes down in clouds.
In Bible it is written Christ comes down in the clouds. In Quran it is written [Spirit of] God comes down in the clouds.
Do you know which verses?
Is not Christ, the Spirit of God in Islam?!
Imam Bagher then had said, about those verses, that its interpretation is, the appearance of Mahdi in Iraq. It has a Quranic evidence that God calls from the city of Baghdad. It is the verse that says, God calls to the Abode of Peace (Dar-i salam). Imam Sadegh has said that Dar-i Salam is in Iraq. We know Darisalam is name of Baghdad.
Now in Islamic Traditions it is said, there is no Mahdi except Christ, which means, Imam Mahdi who is a new Person is the return of Christ, because in Quran when it is written [spirit of ] God comes down in Cloud, this is an allusion to Imam Mahdi according to Imam Bagher's interpretation. Imam Reza has said, that God is exalted above such descriptions that He comes down or moves. He is not like creatures. We also know in Quran, God is closer than our neck vain. So, He is already present. Thus when Quran talks about God coming down, it's an allusion to appearance of Mahdi, who is representative of the Will of God, in the same way that Muhammad or Jesus were representative of the Will of God.
There is a Hadith that says, God becomes the hand, feet, eyes and body of His true servants who submit to Him. This is compatible with Quran, for example, it is written in Quran, that when Muhammad threw stone at enemies, God said it was not Muhammad, even though it was, but it was God who threw. The only way that is true, is when God becomes the hand of Muhammad with which He threw.
I am only stating these from Islamic Traditions. It is not my personal interpretation. I can provide references for all I wrote here, without anything I added personally.
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Could you please give the evidence for these statements, as find that an interesting perspective, as personally find Saoshyant, Maitreya, Kalki, Michael, etc to be the same person.
In my opinion.
It's does say their Imam (their leader),so which nation had their different Imam,for exemple Muslims had prophet Muhammad(pbuh),Christians had Jesus(pbuh) . Jews(pbuh) had Moses(pbuh)....etc
It's clear that Mahdi never ever mentionned in Quran,linked to that verse is mistake,Jesus(pbuh) return never mentionned in Quran.
Mutishbihat in some verse not in every verse. not in these ones.
It's does not mean that you insert events or personalities does not exist in Quran.
Well-grounded is not degree that premit to some scholars to invent something not exist in Quran,or use fake hadithes as proof.
Quran does not mention that Jesus(pbuh) will return by physical or spirital or mentality or ....every what you want.
God shape that only Him who knows how,surely does not seem like human shape.
That's other story,we stop at what Allah said in Quran, we not suppose to insert events or claims or personalities does not exist in Quran.
You did not focus .The idea of using 'this life', as if somehow things stop or are separate...
The things portrayed in the Quran are just going to continue to happen within this reality, there will be a new earth here; here is going to be burned at the presence of the Lord.
The reason i said about no death with God, is not because of who Yeshua is; yet that God creates life, and the reality for us to exist within, thus there is no death if someone is with God.
Yeshua made a point of it isn't the Resurrection of the Dead, it is the Resurrection of the Living, as God is the God of Jacob, Issac, and Abraham.
In my opinion.
It's talk about God judging .
IF you read the next verses,you will release it's about Judgement day,so hell and Heaven .
Really you're arguing with yourself; I've said repeatedly before the time of Judgement day, and you keep getting on your soapbox about what others perceive.
Didn't say it didn't; the prophets are brought back, and they give an account, including Yeshua; these are used by God to judge...
In multiple traditions it states, and then the books were opened; the books are the messages by the prophets, who stand with God at the time of Judgement.
Daniel 7:9-10 “I watched until thrones were placed, and one who was ancient of days sat. His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool. His throne was fiery flames, and its wheels burning fire. (10) A fiery stream issued and came out from before him. Thousands of thousands ministered to him. Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The judgment was set. The books were opened.
Revelation 20:11-12 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. (12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 7:9-11 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could count, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands. (10) They cried with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation be to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (11) All the angels were standing around the throne, the elders, and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before his throne, and worshiped God,
In my opinion.
The day of ressurection is the begining of afterlife.Really you're arguing with yourself; I've said repeatedly before the time of Judgement day, and you keep getting on your soapbox about what others perceive.
I know Arabic,Believe me its about Judgement Day, So you can post about that in Islam DIR to update your information.
Surah Az-Zumar [39]:69:70:71:72:73
And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record [of deeds] will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged.
And every soul will be fully compensated [for] what it did; and He is most knowing of what they do.
And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups until, when they reach it, its gates are opened and its keepers will say, "Did there not come to you messengers from yourselves, reciting to you the verses of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say, "Yes, but the word of punishment has come into effect upon the disbelievers.
[To them] it will be said, "Enter the gates of Hell to abide eternally therein, and wretched is the residence of the arrogant."
But those who feared their Lord will be driven to Paradise in groups until, when they reach it while its gates have been opened and its keepers say, "Peace be upon you; you have become pure; so enter it to abide eternally therein," [they will enter].
There is no verse clearly said,Jesus(pbuh) will return.
Didn't say it didn't; the prophets are brought back, and they give an account, including Yeshua; these are used by God to judge...
In multiple traditions it states, and then the books were opened; the books are the messages by the prophets, who stand with God at the time of Judgement.
Daniel 7:9-10 “I watched until thrones were placed, and one who was ancient of days sat. His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool. His throne was fiery flames, and its wheels burning fire. (10) A fiery stream issued and came out from before him. Thousands of thousands ministered to him. Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The judgment was set. The books were opened.
Revelation 20:11-12 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. (12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 7:9-11 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could count, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands. (10) They cried with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation be to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (11) All the angels were standing around the throne, the elders, and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before his throne, and worshiped God,
In my opinion.
I don't use Bible as reference about return of Jesus(pbuh) .
4:150-151 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between - Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
In my opinion.
If we read all the texts about Resurrection of the Dead in Zoroastrian, and Hebraic texts as well it makes a lot more sense.
Resurrection of the dead - Wikipedia
- The Resurrection of the Dead happens at the time the Messiah/Saoshyant comes.
- The reality is cleansed with fire (Judgement Day).
- A new age of Godliness occurs after.
See you're doing really well at realizing that the Hadiths add to the Quran on the eschatology, and i agree; yet we also have to then recognize what the Quran says on its own without them.
The Gardens the Quran speaks of seems to be the Messianic Age/Satya Yuga; not Heaven... This world remade as paradise.
In my opinion.
We are discussing Islamic viewIf we read all the texts about Resurrection of the Dead in Zoroastrian, and Hebraic texts as well it makes a lot more sense.
Resurrection of the dead - Wikipedia
This also happens in the Hindu, American Indian, Taoist, Buddhist, texts etc...
- The Resurrection of the Dead happens at the time the Messiah/Saoshyant comes.
- The reality is cleansed with fire (Judgement Day).
- A new age of Godliness occurs after.
See you're doing really well at realizing that the Hadiths add to the Quran on the eschatology, and i agree; yet we also have to then recognize what the Quran says on its own without them.
The Gardens the Quran speaks of seems to be the Messianic Age/Satya Yuga; not Heaven... This world remade as paradise.
In my opinion.
In my opinion
4:150-151 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between - Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
In my opinion.
We Muslims believe that Bible is corrupted by hand of humans.
Islam is that the Messengers were sent to many nations with the same message, and that as a Muslim we accept all the religious texts without distinction.
2:285 The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
10:47 And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged
Therefore since you do not understand the Quran on its own, I''m appealing to all the other Messengers as One to show that you're not following the same as we are.
The Quran is quite specific; we're not a Muslim to say we know more than the prophets, we have no authority to dismiss texts.
3:84 Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
4:136 O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.
In my opinion.
Islam is that the Messengers were sent to many nations with the same message, and that as a Muslim we accept all the religious texts without distinction.
2:285 The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
10:47 And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged
Therefore since you do not understand the Quran on its own, I''m appealing to all the other Messengers as One to show that you're not following the same as we are.
The Quran is quite specific; we're not a Muslim to say we know more than the prophets, we have no authority to dismiss texts.
3:84 Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
4:136 O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.
In my opinion.
I know your view, but you seems don't understand mine
We do believe , Torah and Gospel sent from God.
But they are corrupted by hand of humans.
Surah Al-Baqarah [2:75-85]
Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?
to
2:80
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
6:91
And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, " Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, " Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves.