Does Original Islam teach Mahdi and return of Christ?

[InvestigateTruth]

I know your view, but you seems don't understand mine

We do believe , Torah and Gospel sent from God.

But they are corrupted by hand of humans.

Surah Al-Baqarah [2:75-85]
Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

This verse is talking about distorting the verses, as mistranslations and misinterpretations. It is not talking about corrupting the actual text of their Holy Book.

to

2:80
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

This translation of the verse is incorrect my friend. The verse is not talking about 'Scriptures'. The word used in the verse is kotob, meaning books. The Translators assumed by 'books', is meant 'Scriptures', such as Torah.
This verse is revealed addressing the Jews who lived at the time of Muhammad. They had written books to refute Muhammad. This verse is not talking about Jews who lived thousands years before Muhammad, when Scriptures were given by Jewish Prophets.

Please refer to Traditions from Muhammad and Imams to know how They understood and explained this verse of Quran. If you showed from Muslim Traditions, Muhammad or Imams have said that this verse is about corrupting Text of Bible, then you are correct. But you cannot find such a thing. Give it a try my friend.

This is how islamic sources explained it from Imams:

، ﴿فويل للذين يكتبون الكتاب بأيديهم ثم يقولون هذا من عند الله تعالى.. الخ﴾ [2] هذا: القوم اليهود، كتبوا صفة زعموا أنها صفة محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، وهي خلاف صفته، وقالوا للمستضعفين منهم: هذه صفة النبي المبعوث في آخر الزمان أنه: طويل عظيم البدن والبطن، أهدف


بحار الأنوار - ط دارالاحیاء التراث - العلامة المجلسي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت
As you see, the books in this verse is other books that jews wrote at the time of Muhammad. It is not about Jewish Scriptures which Moses and other Prophets had revealed.

Why not use the Islamic Traditions from Muhammad and Imams to understand the story behind the verses, instead of opinions of others?
Most of the verses of Quran requires understanding the history behind the revelation of the verse, and also interpretations of unspecified verses. For these why not use Traditions of Prophet and Imams to know what Islam originally taught?

6:91
And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, " Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, " Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves.

This verse again is about misinterpretations and distorting the meaning of the words of Bible. Not actually writing false verses and add them to Bible, or change anything in the Book. Again please refer to Hadithes to know how Muhammad and Imams who were well-grounded in knowledge have explained this verse.

 

[Godobeyer]

This verse is talking about distorting the verses, as mistranslations and misinterpretations. It is not talking about corrupting the actual text of their Holy Book.

How do you know the verses are changed"distorting" not just in meaning , in writing.

Just few verse after,God explain more :

2:79
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

This translation of the verse is incorrect my friend. The verse is not talking about 'Scriptures'. The word used in the verse is kotob, meaning books. The Translators assumed by 'books', is meant 'Scriptures', such as Torah.
This verse is revealed addressing the Jews who lived at the time of Muhammad. They had written books to refute Muhammad. This verse is not talking about Jews who lived thousands years before Muhammad, when Scriptures were given by Jewish Prophets.

Please refer to Traditions from Muhammad and Imams to know how They understood and explained this verse of Quran. If you showed from Muslim Traditions, Muhammad or Imams have said that this verse is about corrupting Text of Bible, then you are correct. But you cannot find such a thing. Give it a try my friend.

This is how islamic sources explained it from Imams:

، ﴿فويل للذين يكتبون الكتاب بأيديهم ثم يقولون هذا من عند الله تعالى.. الخ﴾ [2] هذا: القوم اليهود، كتبوا صفة زعموا أنها صفة محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، وهي خلاف صفته، وقالوا للمستضعفين منهم: هذه صفة النبي المبعوث في آخر الزمان أنه: طويل عظيم البدن والبطن، أهدف


بحار الأنوار - ط دارالاحیاء التراث - العلامة المجلسي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت
As you see, the books in this verse is other books that jews wrote at the time of Muhammad. It is not about Jewish Scriptures which Moses and other Prophets had revealed.

Why not use the Islamic Traditions from Muhammad and Imams to understand the story behind the verses, instead of opinions of others?
Most of the verses of Quran requires understanding the history behind the revelation of the verse, and also interpretations of unspecified verses. For these why not use Traditions of Prophet and Imams to know what Islam originally taught?


This verse again is about misinterpretations and distorting the meaning of the words of Bible. Not actually writing false verses and add them to Bible, or change anything in the Book. Again please refer to Hadithes to know how Muhammad and Imams who were well-grounded in knowledge have explained this verse.

Fake story, and imagination interpretation .

There is no deal writing by Jews to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh),you just insert fake story had no link to Quran,so failed try

It's very wrong interpretation brother


the verse 7:78 before is explain that Allah was talking about Torah.

And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

 

[Godobeyer]

No, the verse does not say Mahdi will only be Imam of Persia. Islamic Traditions say, He will appear in Persia, but will fill the earth with Justice. Here is another Quranic evidence:


947-روى العلاّمة البحرانيّ قدّس سرّه عن محمّد بن يعقوب بإسناده عن محمّد الحلبي أنّه سأل أبا عبد اللّه عليه السّلام عن قول اللّه عزّ و جلّ: اِعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اَللََّهَ يُحْيِ اَلْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا قال عليه السّلام:

العدل بعد الجور [2] .

948-روى الصدوق رحمه اللّه بإسناده عن سلام بن المستنير، عن أبي جعفر عليه السّلام في قول اللّه عزّ و جلّ:اِعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اَللََّهَ يُحْيِ اَلْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا قال:

يحييها اللّه عزّ و جلّ بالقائم بعد موتها، يعني بموتها كفر أهلها، و الكافر ميّت‌ [3] .

949-روى محمّد بن العبّاس، بإسناده عن سلام بن المستنير، عن أبي جعفر عليه السّلام في قوله عزّ و جلّ:اِعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اَللََّهَ يُحْيِ اَلْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا كفر أهلها و الكافر ميّت، يحييها اللّه بالقائم عليه السّلام فيعدل فيها، فيحيي الأرض و يحيي أهلها بعد موتهم‌ [4] .

950-روى الشيخ الطوسيّ بإسناده من طريق العامّة عن أبي صالح، عن ابن عبّاس في قوله تعالى: اِعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اَللََّهَ يُحْيِ اَلْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا يعني يصلح الأرض بقائم آل محمّد عليهم السّلام‌ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا يعني من بعد جور أهل مملكتها قَدْ بَيَّنََّا لَكُمُ اَلْآيََاتِ بقائم آل محمّد عليهم السّلام‌ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ [5] .

951-روى ثقة الإسلام الكلينيّ بإسناده عن عبد الرحمن بن الحجّاج، عن أبي إبراهيم عليه السّلام في قول اللّه عزّ و جلّ: يُحْيِ اَلْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهََا قال:

ليس يحييها بالقطر، و لكن يبعث اللّه عزّ و جلّ رجالا فيحيون العدل، فتحيى الأرض لإحياء العدل، و لإقامة الحدّ فيها أنفع في الأرض من القطر أربعين صباحا [6] .


الإمام المهدي عليه السلام في القرآن و السنة - سعيد ابو معاش - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

It is the verse of Quran, which God says, He will resurrect the earth after its death. From various chains it is narrated that Imam Abi Abdullah (a.s) has explained that, by resurrecting the earth after its death is meant: after the earth is filled with injustice, and people become disbelievers, then Allah will make the Qaim appear to resurrect it, meaning to fill the earth with Justice thus This is how the unbelievers are resurrected after their death.

Can you help translating the above verses and traditions? I gave a summary as i am busy at work.

I think you need take some courses in Arabic to know the meaning of what you just post in Arabic.

Let's had make a conclusion here about Mahdi and return of Jesus(pbuh) , THEY ARE NOT EXIT IN QURAN, they insert by interpretations of some scholars, so they"scholars" had the only responsible,I had the right to reject that,because that an addition.ok ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, meant that.

No don't get it, it makes no sense; we can't talk about Jewish history, and then miss out the key document we have on it.

Muslims who have not read the Bible properly, don't understand the history of Messiahs, what the promises were from God, etc....

It is like reading the review on a place; yet never having visited it to know.

In my opinion.

For exemple, I know,and watch and respect the Western tradition life,but I don't have to practice it, I have my tradition and way of life.

 

[wizanda]

For exemple, I know,and watch and respect the Western tradition life,but I don't have to practice it, I have my tradition and way of life.

That is fine if someone wasn't sitting a Masters exam on Western Civilization; where they are meant to be able to teach, and debate others professionally after...

The Quran is saying that the people who followed Islam were Abraham, Moses, Yeshua - Krishna, Lao Tzu, Buddha, Zoroaster etc...

Then the Quran is quite clear, there will be many hypocrites who claim to be believers; yet on being tested will fail, and be sent to the Pit.

Following a religious tradition is fine, many people do that; just don't expect to get rewarded at the end, unless we go the extra mile.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How do you know the verses are changed"distorting" not just in meaning , in writing.

I think you are reading more in the verses, than what they actually say. From the verse we can see, it is talking about 'understanding the words of Allah' after 'hearing it', and then distorting it. In this verse there is nothing about writing false verses in Bible:
Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

Just few verse after,God explain more :

2:79
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.


Fake story, and imagination interpretation .

There is no deal writing by Jews to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh),you just insert fake story had no link to Quran,so failed try

It's very wrong interpretation brother

It is not my interpretations. I quoted from Islamic Traditions which tells us the story behind it.
First tell me, when did the Jews corrupted the Text of Torah? Was it before Islam, or at the time of Muhammad?
If you say before Islam they corrupted their Book, then Look at the tense of the verse 2:79. It is saying woe to those who Write books and say this is from Allah. It does no say woe to those who Wrote books..... 'Write', is present. The verse is talking about those who lived at the time of Muhammad, not people who live thousand years before Islam.
If you say, they corrupted Torah at the time of Islam, and during life of Muhammad, that is impossible. At the time Torah was spread in many countries and cities. It is impossible to go and change so many copies of Torah. It is like if Muslims want to change verses of Quran. It is impossible.

the verse 7:78 before is explain that Allah was talking about Torah.

And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

Yes, the verse before it, is talking about Torah. It is saying they do not know Torah, and do not understand it. The next verse (2:79) says, They wrote books to explain Torah and said this is what Allah says. If Allah was talking about Torah again in 2:79, He would have used the word Torah. But He says books!!!. The books in this verse are related to understanding Torah, as we can tell from its previous verse. As we can also see in Islamic Traditions, the Jews wrote books that explains and interprets Torah in a wrong way to refute claims of Muhammad. So, they took out verses of Torah, misinterpreted them, and used them to refute Muhammad, claiming that this is what Allah says. The books they wrote with their hands are books that interprets Torah. It is like if Today Christians use their Holy Book to refute Islam. For example, in Bible it is written that Jesus said, no one comes to Father except through me. Jesus said, beware of false prophets. Christians interpret these verses to show Muhammad is a false prophet, and have written books to refute Muhammad based on Bible, claiming this is what God says (that Muhammad would be false). Jews did same thing, they wrote books... this is what 2:79 is talking about.
It is like today, Muslims write books to explain Quran, saying this is what Allah says. Distorting words of Allah. I hope it is clear now.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think you need take some courses in Arabic to know the meaning of what you just post in Arabic.

Let's had make a conclusion here about Mahdi and return of Jesus(pbuh) , THEY ARE NOT EXIT IN QURAN, ...

I found Translations for them

“Know that Allah gives life to the earth after its death; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you that you may understand.” (Surah Hadid 57:17)
Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) said: “Allah, the Exalted will revive it through the Qaim after its death; its death implies disbelief of its inhabitants, because the disbelievers are dead.”


In Ghaibat of Shaykh Tusi through the same chain of narration from Ibne Abbas about the verse it is narrated that he said: “It means that the earth will
be restituted through the Qaim of Aale Muhammad (a.s.) after its death, that is, after the inequity of its rulers. We explained to you the signs, through the Qaim of Aale Muhammad (a.s.), so perhaps you may understand.”

He again narrates from Ibne Abbas about the holy verse, Know that Allah brings to life the earth after its death, that he said: “Allah will restitute the earth through the Qaim from the House of Muhammad after its death, that is, after the inequity of its dwellers of its kingdoms. We illustrate to you the Signs through the Hujja from the House of Muhammad, perchance you may ratiocinate.”
Full text of "62899227 Bihar Al Anwar Vol 51 52 53 The Promised Mahdi English Translation Part 1"


The ordinary people when they read the verse, they think it is literally talking about death of earth, and resurrecting it like vegetation growth. But Imam Bagher who was well-grounded in knowledge obviously could tell us what this verse is about. I think we should really take advantage of the knoweldge of Muhammad and Imams to understand Quran correctly. Allah gave us These holy men to explain His Book to mankind.

they insert by interpretations of some scholars, so they"scholars" had the only responsible,I had the right to reject that,because that an addition.ok ?

They are not inserted by Scholars. They are interpretations given by those who are well-grounded in knowledge.
The valid question is, how do we know if these Hadithes are true. We know because they have evidence from Quran, that they are compatible with Quran.
For example, according to the Hadith, Imam Baqir said, after its death, means after people become disbelievers and unjust. This has a Quranic evidence, because in Quran, there are verses that shows 'dead' mean disbeliever and unjust.

This is found, as an example in this verse:

“Shall the dead, whom We have quickened, and for whom We have ordained a light whereby he may walk among men, be like him, whose likeness is in the darkness, whence he will not come forth?”
Quran 6:91

Therefore, how does God revives after its death? The interpretation of Imam Baqir is logical. Allah makes the dead, alive, thorough Qaim, who will make the dead, alive, He truns the unbelievers to believers. Unjust to just.

And here is another Quranic evidence, which is in verse 30:19

"He brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and brings to life the earth after its lifelessness. And thus will you be brought ..."

Imam Abi Abdullah, has said with regards to the words of Allah 'He brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living', That means, He brings the attributes of unbeliever from believer, and, attributes of believer from unbeliever. He can bring out unbeliever from darkness to light, and he can cause the believer to go to darkness of error (if they do not obey Allah's command, and do unjust, Allah seals their heart).

source:الكافي- ط الاسلامية - الشيخ الكليني - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت


علي بن محمد، عن صالح بن أبي حماد، عن الحسين بن يزيد [1]، عن الحسن ابن علي بن أبي حمزة، عن إبراهيم، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: ...وقال الله عز وجل: " يخرج الحي من الميت ومخرج الميت من الحي [4] " فالحي: المؤمن الذي تخرج طينته من طينة الكافر والميت الذي يخرج من الحي: هو الكافر الذي يخرج من طينة المؤمن فالحي: المؤمن، والميت: الكافر وذلك قوله عز وجل: " أو من كان ميتا فأحييناه [5] " فكان موته اختلاط طينته مع طينة الكافر وكان حياته حين فرق الله عز وجل بينهما بكلمته كذلك يخرج الله عز وجل المؤمن في الميلاد من الظلمة بعد دخوله فيها إلى النور ويخرج الكافر من النور إلى الظلمة بعد دخوله إلى النور




We can agree to disagree my friend. No body has to believe in something they cannot. So, if you do not believe Islam originally taught about Mahdi and return of Christ, it is totally up to you.

 

[Godobeyer]

We can agree to disagree my friend. No body has to believe in something they cannot. So, if you do not believe Islam originally taught about Mahdi and return of Christ, it is totally up to you.

Yes I disagree with your interpretations

At least we agree that "return of Jesus(pbuh)" and "Mahdi",both not mentionned in Quran, except by inserting them by "interpretations" ?

 

[Godobeyer]

That is fine if someone wasn't sitting a Masters exam on Western Civilization; where they are meant to be able to teach, and debate others professionally after...

The Quran is saying that the people who followed Islam were Abraham, Moses, Yeshua - Krishna, Lao Tzu, Buddha, Zoroaster etc...

Then the Quran is quite clear, there will be many hypocrites who claim to be believers; yet on being tested will fail, and be sent to the Pit.

Following a religious tradition is fine, many people do that; just don't expect to get rewarded at the end, unless we go the extra mile.

In my opinion.

Quran did not say to follow Krishna,Lao Tzu,Buddha,Zoroaster are not prophets to us.

I do recall tha you said , Bible is corrupted,so you takes it whole, or just parts that match with your beliefs ?

 

[wizanda]

Quran did not say to follow Krishna,Lao Tzu,Buddha,Zoroaster are not prophets to us.

10:47 And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged

4:150-151 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between - Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

I do recall tha you said , Bible is corrupted,so you takes it whole, or just parts that match with your beliefs ?

Like to have as little beliefs as possible, and deal with stuff we know...

So with careful dissection of the Biblical text; John, Paul, and Simon contradict Yeshua within the Synoptic Gospels.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes I disagree with your interpretations

At least we agree that "return of Jesus(pbuh)" and "Mahdi",both not mentionned in Quran, except by inserting them by "interpretations" ?

Yes, we can agree that according to recorded traditions of Imams of Shia, as well as Hadithes of Prophet Muhammad, many of the verses of Quran are about Mahdi and return of Christ. What you and I are disagreeing is whether or not these interpretations originated from Muhammad and Imams or not. Correct? I believe these interpretations originates from Muhammad and His lineage. You do not believe these interpretations originated from Muhammad. Though you can believe that Ali, Sadiq, Bagher have indeed interpreted those verses about Mahdi, but you do not believe Their interpretations are correct. Right?
I accept these Hadithes because to me, they are compatible with Quran. Overall, Quran talks about every people, who God sent a Messenger too. Then the People distorted and forgot to practice commands of God. Then, God sent another guidance to revive His Religion again. In Jewish Faith, Messiah was Promised. To Christians, Ahmad was Promised. Now, Muslims divided their Religion, and each sect made their own interpretations and ideas. So, why wouldn't Allah send them a new guidance to revive Islam again? To unite All?

Is there a change in the Tradition of Allah?
So, to me, the Idea of a Mahdi, is compatible with Tradition of Allah. He always sent another One to teach His Religion. The Muslims are divided in to sect, and Allah had forbidden making sects. He has said that is like Shirk or polytheism.

There are indeed thousands of Hadithes about Mahdi and return of Christ, from thousands of people, and many different chains. So, you think, all these people for years has been engaged in fabricating Hadithes? What were their motives? In Islam you cannot find so many Hadithes from different chains, with regards to any other Topic. The overall Hadithes of Mahdi and Christ are Mutiwatir. So, if all these Hadithes can be fake, how can you ever trust any other Hadith?

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, we can agree that according to recorded traditions of Imams of Shia, as well as Hadithes of Prophet Muhammad, many of the verses of Quran are about Mahdi and return of Christ. What you and I are disagreeing is whether or not these interpretations originated from Muhammad and Imams or not. Correct? I believe these interpretations originates from Muhammad and His lineage. You do not believe these interpretations originated from Muhammad. Though you can believe that Ali, Sadiq, Bagher have indeed interpreted those verses about Mahdi, but you do not believe Their interpretations are correct. Right?
I accept these Hadithes because to me, they are compatible with Quran. Overall, Quran talks about every people, who God sent a Messenger too. Then the People distorted and forgot to practice commands of God. Then, God sent another guidance to revive His Religion again. In Jewish Faith, Messiah was Promised. To Christians, Ahmad was Promised. Now, Muslims divided their Religion, and each sect made their own interpretations and ideas. So, why wouldn't Allah send them a new guidance to revive Islam again? To unite All?

Quran never ever said Jesus(pbuh) will return,on contrary God said he is dead.

The concept of Jesus(pbuh) return's is came from Christainity.

Is there a change in the Tradition of Allah?
So, to me, the Idea of a Mahdi, is compatible with Tradition of Allah. He always sent another One to teach His Religion. The Muslims are divided in to sect, and Allah had forbidden making sects. He has said that is like Shirk or polytheism.

There are indeed thousands of Hadithes about Mahdi and return of Christ, from thousands of people, and many different chains. So, you think, all these people for years has been engaged in fabricating Hadithes? What were their motives? In Islam you cannot find so many Hadithes from different chains, with regards to any other Topic. The overall Hadithes of Mahdi and Christ are Mutiwatir. So, if all these Hadithes can be fake, how can you ever trust any other Hadith?

Mahdi is fabricated story had no credibal sources from Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

Not every Hadith in Sahih is credibal,there are many hadithes had untrusted sources. that does not mean that we reject all hadithes.

Yes God forbiden to make sect,but you are sect"Bahai",how you explain that?


There is no change to tradition of God,his words,humans changed them,as you know very sure that Quran never mentionned to return of Jesus(pbuh),or coming of anti-Christ,or Mahdi, you insist that they will come.

At least you should say "maybe" or "Allah knows best" ; because it's not clear,it's just addition by claims in interpretations.

 

[Godobeyer]

10:47 And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged

4:150-151 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between - Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

I know,maybe they were,I said they did not mention in Quran

Like to have as little beliefs as possible, and deal with stuff we know...

So with careful dissection of the Biblical text; John, Paul, and Simon contradict Yeshua within the Synoptic Gospels.

In my opinion.

So you just pick, you don't take it whole

 

[wizanda]

So you just pick, you don't take it whole

I don't pick; it was already made like this by God, and the prophets related those who are wise will see it is a prophesied deception...

Whereas those who are mockers, and wicked shall be deceived by it, as they won't read or understand the books.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes God forbiden to make sect,but you are sect"Bahai",how you explain that?

In our view, Bahai is not a sect. It is a Religion revealed by God for this Age.

At least you should say "maybe" or "Allah knows best" ; because it's not clear,it's just addition by claims in interpretations.

It is fine to say Allah knows best.
I shouldn't have to repeat again that, I did not provide my personal view or interpretations. I only quoted from the Traditions of Muhammad and Imams who according to Traditions are well-grounded in knowledge. You cannot find a single word in this thread from my personal view. Everything is from Muslim Sources. If you believe these Muslim sources are fake, that is up to you. You do not have to believe in them if you do not like.

 

[Godobeyer]

In our view, Bahai is not a sect. It is a Religion revealed by God for this Age.

Sorry ,I thought it's Islamic sect

It is fine to say Allah knows best.
I shouldn't have to repeat again that, I did not provide my personal view or interpretations. I only quoted from the Traditions of Muhammad and Imams who according to Traditions are well-grounded in knowledge. You cannot find a single word in this thread from my personal view. Everything is from Muslim Sources. If you believe these Muslim sources are fake, that is up to you. You do not have to believe in them if you do not like.

I have my sources,and my well-grounded in knowledge they said"return of Jesus(pbuh),and anti-Christ ....etc" it's about additions and fake,and apparnetly they are additions,if we take it word by word.[/QUOTE]

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have my sources,and my well-grounded in knowledge they said"return of Jesus(pbuh),and anti-Christ ....etc" it's about additions and fake,and apparnetly they are additions,if we take it word by word.

Allah in Quran says that, when He revealed Quran, after that it is Him who explains it (75:19).
He also says that there are verses in Quran that their interpretation cannot be known except by Allah, and Those who are well-grounded in knowledge.(3:7)
He also has said that Quran contains illustrious verses and their knowledge is in the Heart of Those who Allah wants to give them.(29:49)
Therefore according to Quran, Allah has given the knowledge of interpretation of Quran only to certain people. This is what He had said in Quran.
He has also said that, the knowledge of the Hidden Book is with those who are purified (77:77).
Thus He has made it clear, that only those who are purified are given the knowledge of the Hidden Book of God.
He has told in Quran, who are the purified ones are. They are the People of the House (33:33).
People of the House is not the wives. If Allah wanted to say Wives, He would have! Even the Traditions of Sunnis tells that People of the House includes Muhammad, Ali, Hassan, Hissein, Fatimah.
In Traditions from Sunni and Shia, it is said that Knowledge of the Book is with Imam Ali (as an example).
Thus, not only Allah had said that after revealing it, He will make it clear, but also He has made it clear Who He is given its knowledge too.
How can it be said that Allah, has revealed a Book, yet, He did not inspire anyone's Heart with its true interpretations? It is illogical. Moreover, when He inspired Those with knowledge, how can it be said such people did not become aware of the knowledge He has give Them? How can we say, when there are Those who are well-grounded in knowledge, did not announce to people that Allah has given Them the knowledge? Therefore the claims of Ali, Hassan, Hessien, Sadiq, Bagher and other Imams are compatible with Quranic evidences. How can we say, Allah has given a Book, protected it, yet, He did not teach its interpretation or did not explain it, when He said after revelation He explains it? Did Allah fail to explain it?
So, when different sects of Muslims disagree, and each have their own interpretations, did not Allah make it clear for them, what is the correct interpretation? Did he not explain it, or He explained it, but failed to preserve its correct interpretation.
When you say you have your sources, and you have your well-grounded in knowledge, can you show evidence from Quran, they are well-grounded in knowledge? If you cannot, how do you know to trust your sources?

 

[Godobeyer]

Allah in Quran says that, when He revealed Quran, after that it is Him who explains it (75:19).
He also says that there are verses in Quran that their interpretation cannot be known except by Allah, and Those who are well-grounded in knowledge.(3:7)
He also has said that Quran contains illustrious verses and their knowledge is in the Heart of Those who Allah wants to give them.(29:49)
Therefore according to Quran, Allah has given the knowledge of interpretation of Quran only to certain people. This is what He had said in Quran.
He has also said that, the knowledge of the Hidden Book is with those who are purified (77:77).
Thus He has made it clear, that only those who are purified are given the knowledge of the Hidden Book of God.
He has told in Quran, who are the purified ones are. They are the People of the House (33:33).
People of the House is not the wives. If Allah wanted to say Wives, He would have! Even the Traditions of Sunnis tells that People of the House includes Muhammad, Ali, Hassan, Hissein, Fatimah.
In Traditions from Sunni and Shia, it is said that Knowledge of the Book is with Imam Ali (as an example).
Thus, not only Allah had said that after revealing it, He will make it clear, but also He has made it clear Who He is given its knowledge too.
How can it be said that Allah, has revealed a Book, yet, He did not inspire anyone's Heart with its true interpretations? It is illogical. Moreover, when He inspired Those with knowledge, how can it be said such people did not become aware of the knowledge He has give Them? How can we say, when there are Those who are well-grounded in knowledge, did not announce to people that Allah has given Them the knowledge? Therefore the claims of Ali, Hassan, Hessien, Sadiq, Bagher and other Imams are compatible with Quranic evidences. How can we say, Allah has given a Book, protected it, yet, He did not teach its interpretation or did not explain it, when He said after revelation He explains it? Did Allah fail to explain it?
So, when different sects of Muslims disagree, and each have their own interpretations, did not Allah make it clear for them, what is the correct interpretation? Did he not explain it, or He explained it, but failed to preserve its correct interpretation.
When you say you have your sources, and you have your well-grounded in knowledge, can you show evidence from Quran, they are well-grounded in knowledge? If you cannot, how do you know to trust your sources?

We speak about this before,to trust or untrust the sources,should be verified

Interpretation is not rubber tool,so we can say whatever we want.


I imagin in future that someone will make an interpretation of Quran,said "Jesus(pbuh) is God" or "married " ....etc

The "well knowledge" is not a degree that allow to change meaning or add new meaning.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We speak about this before,to trust or untrust the sources,should be verified

Interpretation is not rubber tool,so we can say whatever we want.


I imagin in future that someone will make an interpretation of Quran,said "Jesus(pbuh) is God" or "married " ....etc

The "well knowledge" is not a degree that allow to change meaning or add new meaning.

Generally I agree. All you say is correct. Though, when Allah says some of its verses are Figurative, and none knows their interpretations tells us, that certainly most people have misinterpreted those verses. The majority will have an incorrect interpretation. Then, when those few people who were well-grounded in knowledge interpreted them, their interpretations appear to be false in the eyes of most people, simply because most people are not well-grounded in knowledge. This would be the reason that, to the eyes of most people the interpretations of well-grounded in knowledge appears to be something new.
Consider that, in Jewish Scriptures it is written a Messiah comes with Sword and power. In Hebrew Language Messiah means a chosen King.
Even Quran confirms that Jesus was the Messiah. So, it cannot be said Jewish Scriptures were false. Now, think, all those years before Jesus, the Jews expected a King to appear, yet when Jesus came to them, they made fun of Him, because He was not literally a King. So, did Jesus make up a new meaning? Or Jews misunderstood what God meant by King is a spiritual station, which is not worldly? Therefore majority of people thought of the Promised one as a worldly king, yet, Jesus was born in a poor family. Thus to them, He was making up new meanings of words. Moreover, according to Jewish Scriptures, it is written, Messiah conquers the world and brings peace to the world, which did not happen, yet Quran says He was indeed the Messiah (king), but God caused Him to die, and took Him up to Himself. Thus the promise was not fulfilled, or is left for the second coming?

 

[Godobeyer]

Generally I agree. All you say is correct. Though, when Allah says some of its verses are Figurative, and none knows their interpretations tells us, that certainly most people have misinterpreted those verses. The majority will have an incorrect interpretation. Then, when those few people who were well-grounded in knowledge interpreted them, their interpretations appear to be false in the eyes of most people, simply because most people are not well-grounded in knowledge. This would be the reason that, to the eyes of most people the interpretations of well-grounded in knowledge appears to be something new.
Consider that, in Jewish Scriptures it is written a Messiah comes with Sword and power. In Hebrew Language Messiah means a chosen King.
Even Quran confirms that Jesus was the Messiah. So, it cannot be said Jewish Scriptures were false. Now, think, all those years before Jesus, the Jews expected a King to appear, yet when Jesus came to them, they made fun of Him, because He was not literally a King. So, did Jesus make up a new meaning? Or Jews misunderstood what God meant by King is a spiritual station, which is not worldly? Therefore majority of people thought of the Promised one as a worldly king, yet, Jesus was born in a poor family. Thus to them, He was making up new meanings of words. Moreover, according to Jewish Scriptures, it is written, Messiah conquers the world and brings peace to the world, which did not happen, yet Quran says He was indeed the Messiah (king), but God caused Him to die, and took Him up to Himself. Thus the promise was not fulfilled, or is left for the second coming?

In general apprently , Jews in time of prophets had problem with messengers and messeges,so they reject and killed many prophets,and being rebellion .

That's why God sent them many messengers"doctors" last one was Jesus(pbuh),he came to fix some of their wrong beliefs,so they reject him,its writen in Bible that God will send a prophet to other nation(not jews) .

There is no second round,or "downloading Jesus/Messaih",Jesus(pbuh) will not come again to Jews or Muslims or Christians.