Does prayer work?

[Autodidact]

1. I had no idea we were talking about extremists here. I'm talking about moderate people who genuinely pray for good, where good means positive, beneficial, whatever word you would like to put there.

2. Illogical in your perspective is not illogical in mine.

Logic is independent of perspective. That's what makes it logic. A = A, regardless of perspective.

 

[Autodidact]

He communicates through a different form. It is not one of the five senses. It is direct communication, spirit to spirit. And it is as real as seeing or hearing. In fact more real. Your senses can deceive you. The Holy Ghost cannot. I don't know what makes this entity correct. I just know that he is. It is a part of his nature. Once you get to know him you will understand. It has to do with the means of communication. I say that the Holy Ghost speaks. It is more like he shows you things as they are. The Holy Ghost can no more deceive you than I could appear to be a rabbit. When the Holy Ghost speaks (or more accurately "shows truth"), there is no room for doubt or disbelief. It is a more firm witness than seeing.

I did. I know Her quite well. She speaks directly to me, through a completely different sense. And She told me that you're completely, utterly, totally wrong. She made this quite clear to me. I know she cannot deceive me. There is no room for doubt or disbelief. That's why I know you're wrong. What's wrong with my argument?

 

[Autodidact]

I was never intending to create a difference of logic based on beliefs, nor do I want to go down that road. However I do believe that logic has perspective, as logic is based on reason and judgment, which differs from individual to individual. I'm merely suggesting that something that is clearly logical to logician, for example, may not make any sense at all to me.

You're wrong. 1 + 1 = 2, regardless of whether an individual accepts that or not. That's logic.

 

[Autodidact]

How can I demonstrate the distinction to you? Well, short of experiencing it yourself, (which would certainly clear up the matter) I can only do my best to describe it.

Fortunately for all of us, I did. I know exactly what it's like.

It is difficult to explain what seeing is like to a blind man (no offense of course, I was a blind man once too).

Sorry, you still are. My Holy Ghost told me so.

The Spirit is inspiring and uplifting. Whenever he speaks to you he carries a warm, peaceful, loving feeling. It is like the feeling you get when you think of someone who you know loves you enough they would die for you. Or the feeling you get when you are in the mountains and you look at the grand beauty all around you. It is like the feeling you get when you look up at the stars in the middle of nowhere on a cloudless, moonless night and stare at the millions of stars. It is like the feeling you get when you hold a newborn baby in your arms and you see the purity in their eyes. It is like the feeling you get when someone says "I love you." It is like the feeling I get when sing the national anthem and think of all the men and women who have died in defending my freedom. These things cause your soul to stir within you. When the Spirit speaks, he speaks directly to your soul. If you have ever wanted to cry for joy, you can almost feel what it is like to feel the Spirit. Now I suppose you may really think I'm crazy. I don't blame you. I realize it must sound like a fantastical claim. It is. And I know it isn't the voices of a crazed mind because the things the Spirit speaks are logical. His message is consistant and in line with my life

No, actually, it's more like the feeling you get when surfing. Now I know you're deceived, and you don't have the real Holy Ghost. I do. Sorry.

experiences. As I listen and live my life consistant with his message, my life works. It just becomes more vibrant and alive. I do a better job at work. I am kinder to the people I am around. I am able to complete my homework assignments more easily. I feel in harmony with my family and with God. And when I don't follow the message of the Spirit, the exact opposite happens. I become angry easily. I am hard to work with. I make bad decisions. I become dispirited and sullen. I end up finding myself miserable and frustrated. As soon as I stop fighting God (the Spirit is his messenger) and give up my selfish ways, the spirit returns and I can move forward. I suspect you may need more evidence than the word of one person, as I would. Many others feel the Spirit as well. And many on a daily basis. You can't just dismiss it as warm fuzzies. Yes, the Spirit does usually makes you feel good. In fact, he always makes you feel good. But that would be like saying that listening to uplifting and inspiring music makes you feel good. Of course it does! That's the point. But that doesn't mean you're making it up!

Mine is working great for me, and it's helped me lose 30 pounds this year. Too bad she made it clear that you're being deceived by Satan. Sorry.

I am still sorry that what I said offended you. But I can not deny what I know is true. If you said that "We can all survive just fine without Gods" I would not be offended. Unless your reason for stating thus was simply to insult and belittle my beliefs. As I suppose this really is your belief, and you would simply be stating your belief, I would have no problem with it. I wouldn't believe it at all but I could understand where you were coming from. You hit the nail on the head when you said: "Those decisions are up to me, and me alone." Exactly! It is your life. God will never force you to do anything against his your will. That is what this life is all about. We hold our own destiny in our hands! We can choose to seek out God and his wisdom, or we can seek to do it our own way. Why anyone wouldn't want God's help is beyond me. Remember, God's purpose is to make us happy, truly joyfull. He wants to help us achieve our dreams and our deepest wishes. How that can be a bad thing, I don't know. Just remember he loves you. He loves you. And he knows you. He knows your heart. He knows your thoughts. He knows your innermost struggles and pain. He understands you and knows how you feel. He is my greatest friend. He is the constant in a life full of change, strife, and chaos. He is like an anchor in a storm. A foundation wheron if men build, they cannot fall. Like the polar star in the heavens, he is a constant. The one person who will never let you down, no matter what.

Did I mention that Holy Ghost revealed to me that you're mistaken about all of this? That's not how God works at all? If you want to know The Truth, just PM me and I'll explain how you're mistaken. Starting with Joseph Smith, what a joke. The Holy Ghost told me. Please show me how my argument is wrong.

 

[Autodidact]

Great! I think you may have gotten through to me! I think I unfairly characterized you without the right to do so. I am sorry. I honestly have no idea who you really are or how so-called religious or unreligious you are. I can see that you are certainly an honest and insightful person. Let me try to clarify my assertions without being rude or assuming.

God lives and loves each of us his children. He wants us to be happy and that is the design of our existence. He will never force us to do anything. You should be able to get along with him just fine. He doesn't provide us with any kind of magic elixir that tranforms us into copies of the ideal person or something. Rather, he is a loving Father who cares for us and wants to guide us like any loving parent. Accepting his help willingly is not shameful, it is the mark of a great man (or woman). Where you don't believe in him, obviously he won't be hurt or offended by the fact that you don't want his help. How could he? That would be irrational. However, I do know that he lives. I know that he lives as much as I know that I live. It is a reality. A simple reality. I am not trying to be deceitful or insulting. Far from it, I am only trying to shed light. If you don't accept this, that's okay, I totally understand. But truth exists idependently of our perception of it. God is real. I know you want proof. Don't worry, you'll get your proof some day. God will eventually manifest himself to all people. But we don't have to wait until then to know him. If you ever want to know for yourself, don't hesitate to ask. He'll answer. But be aware, he won't answer if you really don't want him to.

Would you please for God's sake stop telling us about God as if you knew any such thing? You don't know any more about God that I do, and it's offensively arrogant for you to carry on as if you do. If you have an argument, or some logic, or some evidence, by all means share it, but your unsupported assertions are really getting tedious. How about this: Try to make a statement you can support in some way. Be warned though, if your support is that the Holy Ghost told you so, I'm pretty sure mine told me the exact opposite, so you're going to have to do better than that. Otherwise, if you want to have a shred of credibility, it goes like this, "I believe that God..." "In my opinion, God..." Get it?

 

[Autodidact]

An example of the harm of people believing that prayer works.* Faith healing. Thousands of people are duped into believing that some form of prayer will cure their disease. If they are really faithful, they believe that resorting to medicine evidences a lack of faith. People die every year from this false belief. Worse, sometimes their children die. Because of our great respect for freedom of religion, many states have an exception to the criminal statutes that protects these parents from being prosecuted. The truth matters.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Working for peace, rather than just asking that it be given to us, is also a form of prayer.

Paraphrasing St. Theresa, "On earth, God has no hands but ours to do the work of justice."

Personally, I think that attributing human actions to God doesn't give enough credit to the humans involved.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Autodidact,
Hello. First, I need to correct something I said. When I said that the Holy Ghost reveals himself to the heart of man I meant mankind. Women are just as intitled to his influence as men are.

You believe that the Holy Ghost is invalid evidence. To refute my claim you make the case that the Holy Ghost could easily apear to you and tell you the exact opposite of what he tells me. He could not do such a thing. The Holy Ghost testifies of truth. Truth is eternal and unchangeable. The Holy Ghost could never condradict himself. It would be as if I had looked at the sun and said it was orange and then you looked at the sun and said it was green. I know that the Holy Ghost may sound strange and absurd to you. That is fine. I can understand. You have little evidendce to support his existence. You only have the testimony of one person who you have no idea if I'm lying, crazy or something else. By the power of the Holy Ghost we may know the truth of all things. However, it is not his word alone. He usually confirms the truth of other people's words. All the prophets testify of him. The Old and New Testaments are testaments of Jesus Christ. You may say that God is too lofty a claim to base all our faith on the words of one book written thousands of years ago. I would agree. That is why we need the Book of Mormon. It is evidence that the Bible is true and that God speaks to all his people. The testimonies of the prophets in the Bible, combined with those contained in the Book of Mormon give quite a body of evidence to the existence of God. But he doesn't just stop there. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He continues to reveal himself to people in these days as he did in times of old:

"And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. "

God is real. Many people have seen him. One day we will all see him. But you don't have to see him to know that he lives. As I have stated before, the Holy Ghost is a more powerful testimony than seeing. Your eyes can deceive you, the Holy Ghost cannot. If you want evidence, read the Book of Mormon.
I stand by my assertion that God is real. He calls prophets to teach us of him. We can know him if we desire to. Through the Holy Ghost, any one can come to know God if they really want to.

 

[Minister_E]

First I believe that you go into prayer a certain way in a cetrain respect......yeah prayer works...Im a walking testamony in how prayer works....But his is a topic where were all gonna have this mindset "you think your right...I KNOW im right" therefore...lol.....For people like me who have seen prayers come to pass its a faith thing you can challenge myu faith all you want but until my prayers dont get anwsered I believe prayer works

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Im a walking testamony in how prayer works

In what way?

 

[Autodidact]

Autodidact,
Hello. First, I need to correct something I said. When I said that the Holy Ghost reveals himself to the heart of man I meant mankind. Women are just as intitled to his influence as men are.

You believe that the Holy Ghost is invalid evidence.

Oh no, I'm sure it's quite valid. And She told me that you are completely and utterly wrong in your understanding of God.

To refute my claim you make the case that the Holy Ghost could easily apear to you and tell you the exact opposite of what he tells me. He could not do such a thing. The Holy Ghost testifies of truth. Truth is eternal and unchangeable. The Holy Ghost could never condradict himself.

Well that makes it utterly clear that Satan has been up to his old tricks again, and the voice you've been listening to is not the real Holy Ghost, doesn't it?

It would be as if I had looked at the sun and said it was orange and then you looked at the sun and said it was green. I know that the Holy Ghost may sound strange and absurd to you. That is fine. I can understand. You have little evidendce to support his existence. You only have the testimony of one person who you have no idea if I'm lying, crazy or something else. By the power of the Holy Ghost we may know the truth of all things.

I know. That's exactly how I know the truth of all things. And that's why I know you're wrong. What's wrong with my argument?

However, it is not his word alone. He usually confirms the truth of other people's words. All the prophets testify of him. The Old and New Testaments are testaments of Jesus Christ. You may say that God is too lofty a claim to base all our faith on the words of one book written thousands of years ago. I would agree. That is why we need the Book of Mormon. It is evidence that the Bible is true and that God speaks to all his people. The testimonies of the prophets in the Bible, combined with those contained in the Book of Mormon give quite a body of evidence to the existence of God. But he doesn't just stop there. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He continues to reveal himself to people in these days as he did in times of old:

Wait, you said it was the Holy Ghost. Now you're talking about some books. I know all those books are wrong, because the Holy Ghost revealed as much to me. So don't ask me to read those devil's books, please. I REPEAT. WHAT'S WRONG WITH MY ARGUMENT?

*snip irrelevant excerpts from works of devil*

God is real.

For the second time, please support your assertions, stop making them, or lose any hope of credibility. I mean, would you believe some anonymous person on the internet. Here, I'll make your same argument and you tel me how persuasive it is, O.K.? "God is not real. Many people have figured this out. One day you will figure it out too." Does that argument do a thing for you? Then why should I pay any attention to yours?

Many people have seen him. One day we will all see him. But you don't have to see him to know that he lives. As I have stated before, the Holy Ghost is a more powerful testimony than seeing. Your eyes can deceive you, the Holy Ghost cannot. If you want evidence, read the Book of Mormon.
I stand by my assertion that God is real. He calls prophets to teach us of him. We can know him if we desire to. Through the Holy Ghost, any one can come to know God if they really want to.

I know all about the Holy Ghost. She is in close and constant communication with me. And she told me that you're wrong, wrong, wrong. The Holy Ghost cannot lie. Therefore you're wrong. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS ARGUMENT? Can you figure it out? If not, please deconvert immediately, as you must accept that I'm right.

If you desire to know the truth, you can. You have to first have faith in the Holy Ghost, though, the real one.

I don't need you to stand by your assertion, Davy, you need to support it. With some evidence. Cuz, y'know, I stand by mine too. Not getting us anywhere, is it?

btw, I tried to read the BoM, but it is such obvious counterfeit and so badly written that I could not slog through it. I would say, if you want evidence that you're wrong, read the BoM. I mean, it's obvious from the first page that it's fraud, and a poor one.

 

[lilithu]

Personally, I think that attributing human actions to God doesn't give enough credit to the humans involved.

To go back to my first post in this thread, prayer is about humility.

 

[Sui]

Of course, who else are we going to get scientific evidence from, plumbers? Is there some kind of human whose understanding is not limited? That's really the best we have to work with. Do you oppose science generally, or only when it disagrees with you? If you discard science, how are you going to establish that intercessory prayer does work?

Plumbers, what an idea. In any case, yes, every human has limited understanding. We're always going to be limited in something. Actually, I'm fascinated by science, particularly biology. Islam encourages seeking knowledge and therefore I embrace scientific endeavors. I just don't think that any reliable conclusions can be made in a field like this. And even if I were to discard science, I would not be trying to establish that intercessory prayer works, because I have my faith, and that is what's important to me. I don't need some scientific numbers and statements to tell me about prayer's effectiveness.

In particular, I direct you to the long awaited Templeton Foundation funded study of heart patients in 2006. The Templeton Foundation is a religiously oriented group hoping for evidence in support of the efficacy of prayer. The study used very good methodology, and used the largest group to date. The results? The Largest Study of Third-Party Remote Intercessory Prayer Suggests Prayer Not Effective in Reducing Complications Following Heart Surgery. Those working in the field consider this to be the definitive study, and until some evidence to the contrary comes along, clearly indicates that prayer is not effective in this way. pubmed

I enjoyed the article, but I don't see it as a reliable, definitive conclusion, based on my views about this field of science in general.

No, why? However I believe at least one study found exactly this result.

Well, the way I see it is that if prayer is not effective and does nothing at all whatsoever, then there would be mixed results. There would have to be many more cases of genuine success than what I'm finding. Something that is purely chance would not always consistently say that the control group always does better. If that's the case, then it isn't just chance, as this suggests there is an intercessory presence.

Proof means absolute, as in math or formal logic. Science is empirical. It can definitively establish something with all the evidence we have so far, but is always open to new evidence; that's the way empirical knowledge works. In this area, all the evidence we have establishes pretty well that prayer is not effective in this way. However, if a study came along to the contrary, such as that prayer to Ctulhu is effective, we would have to factor that information in. So far this has not happened.

Exactly...math is based on pure logic. The numbers do not have the ability to exercise reason...they follow patterns which never change. 1 + 1 will always equal 2. Humans, on the other hand, have individual reasoning and judgment that are influenced by our different perspectives and outlooks. What is logical to one person may be completely erratic and illogical to another.

Exactly. What we can expect is that they will get exactly the same possibility of positive results as if they had not prayed at all. That is what the evidence shows.

Yes, the results of these experiments are most definitely against the effectiveness of prayer. Although as I said above, I find it rather interesting that all the results are in the negative. I'm not suggesting that these scientists are cheating, but I'm saying that the lack of successful results even suggests the existence of an intercessory presence.

That's right. If God exists, neither He nor His actions can be detected or measured. That's why it's wrong to say that prayer is effective. To say that, we would need to be able to detect and measure God's actions, which is not possible.

This is an example of the logic situation. You say the inability of people to measure God is the reason why it's wrong to say prayer is effective. However, I find it logical to say that the inability to measure God is why I find it wrong to say that prayer is ineffective.

Which is exactly the same as not working.

Sure, not all of them are guaranteed to be granted.

In that case, never say that it works. You have absolutely no way to show this.

As you have no way to show that it doesn't work. I have no doubt that many people are convinced by the results of these studies. I am in no way claiming superiority here for anyone, but for the people with a lot of faith it's going to take more than these studies to convince them.

Sure they can. Aspirin is effective against headaches. We have no idea why, nor do we need to. We can test and measure its effectiveness.

Aspirin can be measured, most definitely. The elements of aspirin can clearly be defined, due to science's understanding of them and its ability to predict reactions based on that knowledge. Prayer is something entirely different, we can't make a Periodic Table of the Elements of Prayer. There are far too many unknowns in this field.

That's a weird way to live your life. That's like knowing fire burns, but sticking your hand in it anyway.

Living my life this way makes no sense to you, makes perfect sense to me. I used to be an Atheist, I know both sides of the coin here. I became religious, but I'm not stupid enough to stick my hand in fire. There's a difference.

Of course it is, but this applies to all knowledge, including that which you rely on every day. There is not a special exception for your knowledge of God, which is exactly as limited as all other knowledge. This limited knowledge is all we have. What we've learned is that the best way to advance it is by the scientific method. It works.

Sure, my knowledge of God is nothing compared to what many other people have. Science is amazing and continues to provide us with valuable information. Although as I said, I feel that scientific conclusions on prayer just aren't entirely credible.

Who's to say this tiny bit shows us the world is round? It's all we've got. "This tiny bit" is the sum total of what science has discovered. I doubt that you want to throw that out the window because it is not, and can never be, complete, do you?

Throw science out the window? Of course not, that would be a ridiculously naive thing to do. I'm all for using science to expand ourselves, but making definitive claims about something like prayer, which humans can't even begin to completely understand, is the problem.

An example of the harm of people believing that prayer works.* Faith healing. Thousands of people are duped into believing that some form of prayer will cure their disease. If they are really faithful, they believe that resorting to medicine evidences a lack of faith. People die every year from this false belief.

Yes, plenty of people feel this way...but it's not all that fair to attribute the beliefs of some to the beliefs of every religious person.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

I REPEAT. WHAT'S WRONG WITH MY ARGUMENT?

The biggest problem with your argument, as I see it, is that you obviously don't believe it. You are simply stating the argument as a counter argument to my experiences. There is nothing wrong with your argument other than that you're making it up. If you weren't making it up, it would be different. If you actually believed this argument, I would be forced to think one of the following things. 1. You are crazy. 2. You are lieing. 3. You are deceived. or 4. I am missing part of the picture. It would certainly be perplexing. I am sure that such a situation would never occur however.

Imagine there was a human colony deep underground. Suppose that the people in this colony lived their entire lives underground. Two people from the surface somehow found their way down to this hypothetical colony. Now let's say that both of these people claimed that there is a brilliant object in the sky that illuminates the earth called the sun. Now suppose that person A said that the sun was golden yellow in color. Person B said that it was purple in color. Who has the better argument? Who would the people believe? Both arguments are equally valid. That doesn't make them both true. How would the perplexed citizens of our hypothetical colony settle the matter? I don't think they could. They might not even believe that the sun exists. They might ask for proof. Neither person could prove either that the sun exists or that it is a certain color. The only way to settle the matter would be to go and take a look for yourself.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

The biggest problem with your argument, as I see it, is that you obviously don't believe it. You are simply stating the argument as a counter argument to my experiences. There is nothing wrong with your argument other than that you're making it up. If you weren't making it up, it would be different. If you actually believed this argument, I would be forced to think one of the following things. 1. You are crazy. 2. You are lieing. 3. You are deceived. or 4. I am missing part of the picture. It would certainly be perplexing. I am sure that such a situation would never occur however.

That's quite a load of dung your piling up there, Davy.

You fully expect Autodidact (and everyone else) to fully embrace your beliefs in your God, without question - to the point that you believe that your God has control over our lives, whether we wish to admit it or not.

At the same time, you simply blow off Auto's version of God, because (somehow) your skepticism of her God is valid. Utter hypocrisy on your part. If you expect her (or any of the rest of us) to accept your faith in your God, then you must extend the same courtesy to others - regardless of how distasteful you find it.

Your summation of the four alternatives you would face is viable - now you just need to understand why many of us feel the same way about your version of your God.

I'll take your option #3 - decieved indeed.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

That's quite a load of dung your piling up there, Davy.

You fully expect Autodidact (and everyone else) to fully embrace your beliefs in your God, without question - to the point that you believe that your God has control over our lives, whether we wish to admit it or not.

At the same time, you simply blow off Auto's version of God, because (somehow) your skepticism of her God is valid. Utter hypocrisy on your part. If you expect her (or any of the rest of us) to accept your faith in your God, then you must extend the same courtesy to others - regardless of how distasteful you find it.

Your summation of the four alternatives you would face is viable - now you just need to understand why many of us feel the same way about your version of your God.

I'll take your option #3 - decieved indeed.

I don't expect anyone to just swallow the things I am saying hook line and sinker and go, "Oh that makes sense! Well he must be right then!" That would certainly be unwise. My word alone is not enough to make someone change their deeply held religious (or arelegious) beliefs. In fact if no one were to believe me, I would not be suprised. I honestly couldn't blame them. I think I would expect something more along the lines of "Wow! I think that guy actually believes what he is saying." The thing is, I am stating what I know is true, and it goes directly against what many people believe. It goes directly against what many people find to be reasonable. How could I expect everyone to just up and believe me? However, to those who do (if any) find that what I say rosonates in their hearts, or find the thought of God compelling, I say: you don't have to wonder. You don't have to wait until you die to find out. You can seek out God on your own. If I believe in God, it is a stronger belief than the belief that I have in myself. I know he lives. I know we are his children. And I know that he loves us each individually. He is mindful of us. He has sent his prophets in every age of the world to declare his word unto us. And to all who wish to come to him he has said:
"Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
I bear witness that this is true. The water of life is transforming. Where it touches dry, dead ground, life suddenly springs up. Life becomes more brilliant. Everything makes more sense. And we finally know who we are and why we are here. I love God with my whole heart. I am eternally greatful to him. I only hope that I can live my life so that he will be happy. When I meet him, I want it to be a joyful meeting, and not one of pain and remorse.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Davy -

I don't doubt your faith, nor do I begrudge you your beliefs.

My point is that if you expect others to give any weight to your words, then you need to be able to extend that same sentiment to others.

It does not appear that you do so.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Davy -

I don't doubt your faith, nor do I begrudge you your beliefs.

My point is that if you expect others to give any weight to your words, then you need to be able to extend that same sentiment to others.

It does not appear that you do so.

Let me see if I understand what you're trying to tell me. I should be repectful of other's beliefs and not force my own upon them. Is that correct?

If that is what you want to tell me, I totally agree. I mean no disrespect to anyone when I say that I know God lives. I mean that. I think it is better to be honest and open than to be polite and insincere. Especially on a religious debate thread. I don't think it does anyone any good for us to say "Well, you could be right, you could be right, or I could be right. Who could it be?" I can't pretend to think like that. I can't say "Well, for me it's like this, but for you it's like that and for him it's that way but we'll never really know for sure." If I said that, it would be dishonest, a cover up. I want people to know what I know. I want people to know that I know that God lives. I want people to know that I know that anyone can pray to him and ask for help, direction, or wisdom. Whether people accept that or not, I don't mind. But I can't pretend to be someone I'm not.

Oh, and P.S. I deeply value the opinions and feelings of other people. This is especially true when said opinions are actually honest and sincere. It doesn't matter if someone agrees with me or not, I always appreciate honest thinking.

 

[Sententia]

Prayer works for me, strengthens my belief and increases my faith....

Thus the purpose of its design. Anyone with an ounce of reason will eventually realize that prayer does indeed not work. IMHO.

 

[cardero]

If someone prayed ALL their life to win the lottery and to live a wealthy life, they could start praying as soon as they could comprehend prayer, but the TRUTH remains: Is it within their PURPOSE to live a wealthy life?


But if it is within the will of the BEing that these prayers go unfulfilled, it is only because it is not within the PURPOSE for this BEing to receive the effects of that particular prayer. It is not MY will that must BE done but the will and the PURPOSE of the individual BEing who has chosen a PURPOSE before incarnating into a physical existence that must BE done.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: The Purpose Of Prayer
Pg: 379, 380