Does prayer work?

[DavyCrocket2003]

How does this entity communicate with you? And what makes this entity correct?

He communicates through a different form. It is not one of the five senses. It is direct communication, spirit to spirit. And it is as real as seeing or hearing. In fact more real. Your senses can deceive you. The Holy Ghost cannot. I don't know what makes this entity correct. I just know that he is. It is a part of his nature. Once you get to know him you will understand.

That this entity has never lied to you does not, in turn, allow us to conclude that it never lies. I have never lied to you; does that mean you trust me implicitly as well?

It has to do with the means of communication. I say that the Holy Ghost speaks. It is more like he shows you things as they are. The Holy Ghost can no more deceive you than I could appear to be a rabbit. When the Holy Ghost speaks (or more accurately "shows truth"), there is no room for doubt or disbelief. It is a more firm witness than seeing.

Of course it does. You made a claim about every single person on the face of the Earth. I'm here to tell you that you are wrong. I do not need your god. You cannot and will not speak for me. If you're truly sorry, then you will retract your claim about me.

I am truly sorry that you were offended. I am not trying to tell you that you are messed up or are a weak person or something. Everyone is mortal though. Everyone will fall prey to the weakness of being human. This life is no walk in the park. Whether by our own actions, the actions of others, or just because life isn't always fair and perfect, we will all experience pain, frustration, sorrow, and misery at some point in our life. There are things we will not be able to satisfactorilly overcome or understand without the help of God. Death is a good example.

He can't help us if we don't want him to? So we control him? How then can he be omnipotent?

It depends on what you mean by help us. If you mean "Can God take away pain sorrow and heartache without our help?" No. He can do that on his own. But life would be pointless. If you mean "Can God help us grow and progress untill we reach our full potential?" then no. He cannot do that without our help. In fact that wouldn't make any sense! If he could make us all perfectly happy and grown up in a spiritual sense just with a wave of his hand, wouldn't he do it? If not, he would be some kind of weirdo, just letting us suffer pointlessly. What kind of God would that be? Not the God I know and love. God's every aim is to make us happy, eternally so. Everything he does and everything we experience is a means to that end. If there was a magic answer we would all have been perfected and immortalized long ago. However, that is not how it works. Think of it like this. When we are little kids, the trials and sorrows we endure are so different from the ones we go through as adults: Having to take a nap, going to bed on time, eating your dinner. These are the stresses of a young child's life. Now, imagine you are an omnipotent parent. Would you remove all pain and sorrow from your child's life? Would you prohibit him/her from ever beeing stretched or tested? Not if you wanted that child to grow. If you gave into all his demands, he would be stuck as a perpetual three year old. It is the same for our Heavenly Father. If he were to give in to our every demand, it would frustrate our eternal progress. It is through overcoming pains, frustrations, and weakness that we grow and become better people. If there were no such things, we would be stuck as an eternal three year old so to speak. I hope this clarifies. I have no desire to insult you.

You can predict the future?
- Xaxyx

Not much better than you can. I do know however that all men are fallible. None of us can achieve all that we were sent here to achieve without God's help. I know that none of us can return to his presence without his help. So inasmuch as that is predicting the future, yes I suppose I can. That is not the point though. The point is that we have a loving Heavenly Father who wants us to be happy. He loves us all without exception. He can facilitate our growth and happiness beyond anything we can achieve on our own. He is as real as the universe. And anyone can seek him out if they desire to. And you don't have to rely on some one else to tell you who he is or what the right way to talk to him is. You can find out for yourself. No one has a monopopoly on God. He is who he is. Our job is to find out who he is, not what people say he is. Other people can help us find him but ultimatelly it is up to us and nobody else.

 

[Sui]

I hate to step into the middle of this, but we spent about a month correcting a couple of Christians, and you should be shown the same courtesy:
Logic has no "perspective". It is not "relative" to anyone or anything. The discipline of logic has only set of recognized rules that are applied universally.

At the risk of speaking for you, I believe that you are trying to say that you reject the premise that logician is basing his position on. If you wish to make that assertion, fine. Please don't take us down that path again, though, where we have to explain that there is no such thing as "atheist logic" or "Islamic logic" or "Christian logic".

I was never intending to create a difference of logic based on beliefs, nor do I want to go down that road. However I do believe that logic has perspective, as logic is based on reason and judgment, which differs from individual to individual. I'm merely suggesting that something that is clearly logical to logician, for example, may not make any sense at all to me.

 

[Xaxyx]

He communicates through a different form. It is not one of the five senses. It is direct communication, spirit to spirit. And it is as real as seeing or hearing. In fact more real. Your senses can deceive you. The Holy Ghost cannot. I don't know what makes this entity correct. I just know that he is. It is a part of his nature. Once you get to know him you will understand.

It has to do with the means of communication. I say that the Holy Ghost speaks. It is more like he shows you things as they are. The Holy Ghost can no more deceive you than I could appear to be a rabbit. When the Holy Ghost speaks (or more accurately "shows truth"), there is no room for doubt or disbelief. It is a more firm witness than seeing.

There's really nothing particularly amazing about the way we perceive our environment. We have, as you noted, five senses. And of course, many more than that; we have a sense of balance, a sense of spacial awareness (where your limbs are, for example; close your eyes, wave your arms around, and then try to "find" them), we can feel force and gravity, hot and cold, and so forth. They're all part of the human condition. Some folks are missing some of these senses. Others have more acute versions. But they're all very straightforward, explained by relatively simple, albeit sophisticated, biological, chemical and physical principles.

But like all such devices, they can be deceived. Pretty easily, in fact. Sounds can be mimicked, illusions conjured. Super cold temperatures can seem "burning cold", as your sense of temperature extremes becomes confused. The senses, ultimately, cannot necessarily be trusted.

I find it curious, then, that you would identify this additional, "spiritual" sense, and attribute the unique characteristic to this method of sensory collection, of which I for one am blithely unaware, of perfect, flawless perception. Why is it that everything else about us is fallible, as you yourself note, but this extra-sensory perception is not? That seems rather inconsistent.

On the same topic: how can you be certain that this extra voice in your head is indeed the "Holy Ghost", and not a form of insanity or mental unbalance? Can you demonstrate the distinction in some way? (btw: "I just know" is insufficient.)

I am truly sorry that you were offended. I am not trying to tell you that you are messed up or are a weak person or something. Everyone is mortal though. Everyone will fall prey to the weakness of being human. This life is no walk in the park. Whether by our own actions, the actions of others, or just because life isn't always fair and perfect, we will all experience pain, frustration, sorrow, and misery at some point in our life. There are things we will not be able to satisfactorilly overcome or understand without the help of God. Death is a good example.

The reason I was offended, and continue to be offended, is that you make global characterizations about people you do not know and do not understand. I am not you. I do not think like you. I do not believe what you believe. Whether or not I am able to "satisfactorily overcome" the detriments I have experienced in this life is not up to you. It is up to me. And I, for one, can assure you, from the deepest bowels of my being, that under absolutely no circumstances whatsoever will my ability to overcome my hardships in any way whatsoever require your deity, or any deity for that matter.

Thus, when you state things like, "[W]e will not be able to satisfactorily overcome or understand without the help of God," you are either mistaken, or lying. As you seem to be a very pleasant person, I'll simply assume that you are mistaken. But please, I beseech you, stop making the same mistake. If you don't want to offend me, then don't speak for me. I do not need your god, I do not want your god, and I am not seeking your god.

So the next time you find yourself starting a sentence with "We all...", think about who you're purporting to represent. I don't deign to speak for you. Wouldn't you be offended if I said something like, "We all can survive just fine without gods"? Wouldn't that seem arrogant of me, condescending of me? Who am I to speak for you, for others? Hmm? No, I would never say anything like that. I'd appreciate the same courtesy in kind.

It depends on what you mean by help us. If you mean "Can God take away pain sorrow and heartache without our help?" No. He can do that on his own. But life would be pointless. If you mean "Can God help us grow and progress untill we reach our full potential?" then no. He cannot do that without our help. In fact that wouldn't make any sense! If he could make us all perfectly happy and grown up in a spiritual sense just with a wave of his hand, wouldn't he do it? If not, he would be some kind of weirdo, just letting us suffer pointlessly. What kind of God would that be? Not the God I know and love. God's every aim is to make us happy, eternally so. Everything he does and everything we experience is a means to that end. If there was a magic answer we would all have been perfected and immortalized long ago. However, that is not how it works. Think of it like this. When we are little kids, the trials and sorrows we endure are so different from the ones we go through as adults: Having to take a nap, going to bed on time, eating your dinner. These are the stresses of a young child's life. Now, imagine you are an omnipotent parent. Would you remove all pain and sorrow from your child's life? Would you prohibit him/her from ever beeing stretched or tested? Not if you wanted that child to grow. If you gave into all his demands, he would be stuck as a perpetual three year old. It is the same for our Heavenly Father. If he were to give in to our every demand, it would frustrate our eternal progress. It is through overcoming pains, frustrations, and weakness that we grow and become better people. If there were no such things, we would be stuck as an eternal three year old so to speak. I hope this clarifies. I have no desire to insult you.

It is not up to your god to decide what purpose my life holds or what lessons in life are important to learn. Those decisions are up to me, and me alone. I may, if I so choose, ask others for advice and support in the matter. But if I choose not to, then so be it. Ultimately, that power is mine to wield.

Not much better than you can. I do know however that all men are fallible. None of us can achieve all that we were sent here to achieve without God's help. I know that none of us can return to his presence without his help. So inasmuch as that is predicting the future, yes I suppose I can. That is not the point though. The point is that we have a loving Heavenly Father who wants us to be happy. He loves us all without exception. He can facilitate our growth and happiness beyond anything we can achieve on our own. He is as real as the universe. And anyone can seek him out if they desire to. And you don't have to rely on some one else to tell you who he is or what the right way to talk to him is. You can find out for yourself. No one has a monopopoly on God. He is who he is. Our job is to find out who he is, not what people say he is. Other people can help us find him but ultimatelly it is up to us and nobody else.

Again: what my "job" is, what the purpose of my life is, what I'm here to achieve, is not up to your god. It is up to me. I will decide my own purpose. I will choose my own fate. No one has a monopoly on me, either.

- Xaxyx

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

There's really nothing particularly amazing about the way we perceive our environment. We have, as you noted, five senses. And of course, many more than that; we have a sense of balance, a sense of spacial awareness (where your limbs are, for example; close your eyes, wave your arms around, and then try to "find" them), we can feel force and gravity, hot and cold, and so forth. They're all part of the human condition. Some folks are missing some of these senses. Others have more acute versions. But they're all very straightforward, explained by relatively simple, albeit sophisticated, biological, chemical and physical principles.

But like all such devices, they can be deceived. Pretty easily, in fact. Sounds can be mimicked, illusions conjured. Super cold temperatures can seem "burning cold", as your sense of temperature extremes becomes confused. The senses, ultimately, cannot necessarily be trusted.

I find it curious, then, that you would identify this additional, "spiritual" sense, and attribute the unique characteristic to this method of sensory collection, of which I for one am blithely unaware, of perfect, flawless perception. Why is it that everything else about us is fallible, as you yourself note, but this extra-sensory perception is not? That seems rather inconsistent.

On the same topic: how can you be certain that this extra voice in your head is indeed the "Holy Ghost", and not a form of insanity or mental unbalance? Can you demonstrate the distinction in some way? (btw: "I just know" is insufficient.)

How can I demonstrate the distinction to you? Well, short of experiencing it yourself, (which would certainly clear up the matter) I can only do my best to describe it. It is difficult to explain what seeing is like to a blind man (no offense of course, I was a blind man once too). The Spirit is inspiring and uplifting. Whenever he speaks to you he carries a warm, peaceful, loving feeling. It is like the feeling you get when you think of someone who you know loves you enough they would die for you. Or the feeling you get when you are in the mountains and you look at the grand beauty all around you. It is like the feeling you get when you look up at the stars in the middle of nowhere on a cloudless, moonless night and stare at the millions of stars. It is like the feeling you get when you hold a newborn baby in your arms and you see the purity in their eyes. It is like the feeling you get when someone says "I love you." It is like the feeling I get when sing the national anthem and think of all the men and women who have died in defending my freedom. These things cause your soul to stir within you. When the Spirit speaks, he speaks directly to your soul. If you have ever wanted to cry for joy, you can almost feel what it is like to feel the Spirit. Now I suppose you may really think I'm crazy. I don't blame you. I realize it must sound like a fantastical claim. It is. And I know it isn't the voices of a crazed mind because the things the Spirit speaks are logical. His message is consistant and in line with my life experiences. As I listen and live my life consistant with his message, my life works. It just becomes more vibrant and alive. I do a better job at work. I am kinder to the people I am around. I am able to complete my homework assignments more easily. I feel in harmony with my family and with God. And when I don't follow the message of the Spirit, the exact opposite happens. I become angry easily. I am hard to work with. I make bad decisions. I become dispirited and sullen. I end up finding myself miserable and frustrated. As soon as I stop fighting God (the Spirit is his messenger) and give up my selfish ways, the spirit returns and I can move forward. I suspect you may need more evidence than the word of one person, as I would. Many others feel the Spirit as well. And many on a daily basis. You can't just dismiss it as warm fuzzies. Yes, the Spirit does usually makes you feel good. In fact, he always makes you feel good. But that would be like saying that listening to uplifting and inspiring music makes you feel good. Of course it does! That's the point. But that doesn't mean you're making it up!

The reason I was offended, and continue to be offended, is that you make global characterizations about people you do not know and do not understand. I am not you. I do not think like you. I do not believe what you believe. Whether or not I am able to "satisfactorily overcome" the detriments I have experienced in this life is not up to you. It is up to me. And I, for one, can assure you, from the deepest bowels of my being, that under absolutely no circumstances whatsoever will my ability to overcome my hardships in any way whatsoever require your deity, or any deity for that matter.

Thus, when you state things like, "[W]e will not be able to satisfactorily overcome or understand without the help of God," you are either mistaken, or lying. As you seem to be a very pleasant person, I'll simply assume that you are mistaken. But please, I beseech you, stop making the same mistake. If you don't want to offend me, then don't speak for me. I do not need your god, I do not want your god, and I am not seeking your god.

So the next time you find yourself starting a sentence with "We all...", think about who you're purporting to represent. I don't deign to speak for you. Wouldn't you be offended if I said something like, "We all can survive just fine without gods"? Wouldn't that seem arrogant of me, condescending of me? Who am I to speak for you, for others? Hmm? No, I would never say anything like that. I'd appreciate the same courtesy in kind.

It is not up to your god to decide what purpose my life holds or what lessons in life are important to learn. Those decisions are up to me, and me alone. I may, if I so choose, ask others for advice and support in the matter. But if I choose not to, then so be it. Ultimately, that power is mine to wield.

Again: what my "job" is, what the purpose of my life is, what I'm here to achieve, is not up to your god. It is up to me. I will decide my own purpose. I will choose my own fate. No one has a monopoly on me, either.

- Xaxyx

I am still sorry that what I said offended you. But I can not deny what I know is true. If you said that "We can all survive just fine without Gods" I would not be offended. Unless your reason for stating thus was simply to insult and belittle my beliefs. As I suppose this really is your belief, and you would simply be stating your belief, I would have no problem with it. I wouldn't believe it at all but I could understand where you were coming from. You hit the nail on the head when you said: "Those decisions are up to me, and me alone." Exactly! It is your life. God will never force you to do anything against his your will. That is what this life is all about. We hold our own destiny in our hands! We can choose to seek out God and his wisdom, or we can seek to do it our own way. Why anyone wouldn't want God's help is beyond me. Remember, God's purpose is to make us happy, truly joyfull. He wants to help us achieve our dreams and our deepest wishes. How that can be a bad thing, I don't know. Just remember he loves you. He loves you. And he knows you. He knows your heart. He knows your thoughts. He knows your innermost struggles and pain. He understands you and knows how you feel. He is my greatest friend. He is the constant in a life full of change, strife, and chaos. He is like an anchor in a storm. A foundation wheron if men build, they cannot fall. Like the polar star in the heavens, he is a constant. The one person who will never let you down, no matter what.

 

[Xaxyx]

How can I demonstrate the distinction to you? Well, short of experiencing it yourself, (which would certainly clear up the matter) I can only do my best to describe it.[snip]

I do experience this feeling. I experience it frequently. I feel inspired, uplifted. My heart is moved. I am consumed, subsumed, with the sensation of a world, a universe, greater than myself. I am both humbled and awed, transfixed by the vision of a connection with the greatness of creation itself. It is an otherworldly sensation, a seemingly unnatural, almost metaphysical transformation. An incredible, passionate, terribly wonderful feeling, a warm chill. I melt away from myself. Unfettered by my merely mortal shell, I drift, contemplating the nature of reality and my place within it. I am tranquil, at peace, at harmony with the music of everything and nothing. There is so much to this world, so much beauty, and I am privileged to bear witness to even a tiny part of it. I am thankful; and I am happy.

And then I grab some nachos, and watch some TV.

Perhaps it's not as important, or as intrinsic, to me as it is to you to achieve this state of self-awareness or meditation or whichever term you prefer. I do it every once in a while; and it doesn't even require star-gazing, really. I just sit back, relax, stare at a distant point, and let go. Anyone can do it. And while it's arguably a distinct, even unique experience, it's just not all that impressive to me. Likely, those who've experimented with mind-altering drugs (I never have) could trump us both. LDS? Meet LSD!

And still, nothing in my experiences has ever led me to believe that those sensations are delivered to me from an external source of any sort, let alone a divine one. So I still fail to see how your experiences supposedly differ so drastically from mine. Indeed: could you achieve this state that you describe without divine intervention? Have you ever tried?

I am still sorry that what I said offended you. But I can not deny what I know is true.

See, there you go again. You cannot know what's going on in my head. You might suspect. You might even believe, based on information you've gleaned about me or the things I've said and done. But you cannot know. Only I can know myself.

Thus, every time you make a knowledge claim about me, you rob me of my free will. You do not know what is true as regards to my principles, my morals, and my spirituality -- or lack thereof. To claim that you do know is either ignorance or deceit. I've repeatedly given you the benefit of the doubt regarding the former. But I have no tolerance for the latter.

If you said that "We can all survive just fine without Gods" I would not be offended. Unless your reason for stating thus was simply to insult and belittle my beliefs. As I suppose this really is your belief, and you would simply be stating your belief, I would have no problem with it. I wouldn't believe it at all but I could understand where you were coming from.

You should be offended. Who am I to speak for you? Here, I'll use a more blunt example: "I know that anyone who believes in a god is suffering from a self-delusion." Wouldn't that sentence steam your collar? With that single statement, I might presume to know exactly how your mind works, dismissing with eleven or twelve words your entire religious worldview. And then I could further back it up as you do: "Sorry, but I KNOW this to be true. I can't deny what I KNOW to be true. Sorry you're offended!"

Making a knowledge claim is a far more grievous undertaking than it might appear on the surface. Especially so when talking to someone who might, in this instance, question the veracity of your knowledge claim. Thus, when using that magical word -- "know" -- you might want to make sure that:

1) You believe what you claim.
2) You have evidence of what you're claiming.
3) You are able to demonstrate that the evidence of your claim leads reasonably to your belief.

For example: I know that all of my socks are green:

1) I believe that all of my socks are green.
2) I have (well, I can produce on demand) lots and lots of pictures of each and every one of my socks, each one clearly depicting their greenness.
3) These pictures of all of my socks lead incontrovertibly to the conclusion that they are, in fact, all green.

There. A reasonable knowledge claim. Now let's try another one: I know that there's life on other planets:

1) I believe that there's life on other planets.
2) Uh... oops... I can't produce any evidence of life on other planets. But I've got a really good feeling about it!
3) Bzzt.

So, I probably shouldn't try any knowledge claims regarding extraterrestrials. But my green socks are safe territory. Indeed: once I've produced the photos of all of my socks, you can make the same knowledge claim!

Now let's try a trickier example. Chickens! Everybody knows that all chickens lay eggs, right? Let's find out:

1) I believe that all chickens lay eggs.
2) I can produce lots and lots of documented instances of chickens laying eggs.
3) These documented instances serve as incontrovertible demonstration that chickens lay eggs.

Sounds good, right? Honk! Wrong. My claim wasn't that chickens lay eggs. My claim was that ALL chickens lay eggs. To demonstrate the veracity of THAT claim, I would have to provide documentation of every single chicken on Earth laying an egg. I hope you like omelets.

In fact, I think it's fairly obvious that there are, from time to time, chickens who are born without the ability to lay eggs. So to make the claim, "I know that all chickens lay eggs," is probably not a good idea. In fact, if someone produced a chicken who was demonstrably unable to lay an egg, that person could instead make the counter-claim of "I know that not every chicken can lay eggs":

1) I believe that not every chicken can lay eggs.
2) Here's one who can't.
3) See?

And thus we arrive at the crux of my argument and the fatal flaw of yours. You cannot possibly make a knowledge claim about every single person on Earth as regards their religious views toward your god. This is because I, and only I, know what's going on in my head. And just one example of a chicken who doesn't lay eggs is enough to negate your claim.

You hit the nail on the head when you said: "Those decisions are up to me, and me alone." Exactly! It is your life. God will never force you to do anything against his your will. That is what this life is all about. We hold our own destiny in our hands! We can choose to seek out God and his wisdom, or we can seek to do it our own way. Why anyone wouldn't want God's help is beyond me. Remember, God's purpose is to make us happy, truly joyfull. He wants to help us achieve our dreams and our deepest wishes. How that can be a bad thing, I don't know.

I'll be more than happy to explain, if you'd like. By amazing coincidence, I, too wish to achieve my dreams and deepest wishes. I just would prefer to do it on my own, by my own merits. I'm really not interested in having anything assist me. It would feel disingenuous; it would feel like cheating. It wouldn't really be me achieving my dreams; it would be your god-thing, whisking me along on its magic cloud. That would spoil the whole thing for me. No, I'll just muddle along on my own two feet, thank you very much. That way, when I do finish my projects and achieve my goals, they'll be mine, and mine alone, to take pride in.

Just remember he loves you. He loves you. And he knows you. He knows your heart. He knows your thoughts. He knows your innermost struggles and pain. He understands you and knows how you feel. He is my greatest friend. He is the constant in a life full of change, strife, and chaos. He is like an anchor in a storm. A foundation wheron if men build, they cannot fall. Like the polar star in the heavens, he is a constant. The one person who will never let you down, no matter what.

Your telepathic voyeur notwithstanding, I don't really care. If I stumble, I want to fall. I want to slam my knee; I want blood to flow. I need the blood to flow. That is how we learn. We learn how to pick ourselves up, accept the pain of our mistakes, slap on a band-aid and some antibiotics, and go right back at it. I don't need any magic anchors. I trust in myself.

- Xaxyx

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

I do experience this feeling. I experience it frequently. I feel inspired, uplifted. My heart is moved. I am consumed, subsumed, with the sensation of a world, a universe, greater than myself. I am both humbled and awed, transfixed by the vision of a connection with the greatness of creation itself. It is an otherworldly sensation, a seemingly unnatural, almost metaphysical transformation. An incredible, passionate, terribly wonderful feeling, a warm chill. I melt away from myself. Unfettered by my merely mortal shell, I drift, contemplating the nature of reality and my place within it. I am tranquil, at peace, at harmony with the music of everything and nothing. There is so much to this world, so much beauty, and I am privileged to bear witness to even a tiny part of it. I am thankful; and I am happy.

And then I grab some nachos, and watch some TV.

Perhaps it's not as important, or as intrinsic, to me as it is to you to achieve this state of self-awareness or meditation or whichever term you prefer. I do it every once in a while; and it doesn't even require star-gazing, really. I just sit back, relax, stare at a distant point, and let go. Anyone can do it. And while it's arguably a distinct, even unique experience, it's just not all that impressive to me. Likely, those who've experimented with mind-altering drugs (I never have) could trump us both. LDS? Meet LSD!

And still, nothing in my experiences has ever led me to believe that those sensations are delivered to me from an external source of any sort, let alone a divine one. So I still fail to see how your experiences supposedly differ so drastically from mine. Indeed: could you achieve this state that you describe without divine intervention? Have you ever tried?

See, there you go again. You cannot know what's going on in my head. You might suspect. You might even believe, based on information you've gleaned about me or the things I've said and done. But you cannot know. Only I can know myself.

Thus, every time you make a knowledge claim about me, you rob me of my free will. You do not know what is true as regards to my principles, my morals, and my spirituality -- or lack thereof. To claim that you do know is either ignorance or deceit. I've repeatedly given you the benefit of the doubt regarding the former. But I have no tolerance for the latter.

You should be offended. Who am I to speak for you? Here, I'll use a more blunt example: "I know that anyone who believes in a god is suffering from a self-delusion." Wouldn't that sentence steam your collar? With that single statement, I might presume to know exactly how your mind works, dismissing with eleven or twelve words your entire religious worldview. And then I could further back it up as you do: "Sorry, but I KNOW this to be true. I can't deny what I KNOW to be true. Sorry you're offended!"

Making a knowledge claim is a far more grievous undertaking than it might appear on the surface. Especially so when talking to someone who might, in this instance, question the veracity of your knowledge claim. Thus, when using that magical word -- "know" -- you might want to make sure that:

1) You believe what you claim.
2) You have evidence of what you're claiming.
3) You are able to demonstrate that the evidence of your claim leads reasonably to your belief.

For example: I know that all of my socks are green:

1) I believe that all of my socks are green.
2) I have (well, I can produce on demand) lots and lots of pictures of each and every one of my socks, each one clearly depicting their greenness.
3) These pictures of all of my socks lead incontrovertibly to the conclusion that they are, in fact, all green.

There. A reasonable knowledge claim. Now let's try another one: I know that there's life on other planets:

1) I believe that there's life on other planets.
2) Uh... oops... I can't produce any evidence of life on other planets. But I've got a really good feeling about it!
3) Bzzt.

So, I probably shouldn't try any knowledge claims regarding extraterrestrials. But my green socks are safe territory. Indeed: once I've produced the photos of all of my socks, you can make the same knowledge claim!

Now let's try a trickier example. Chickens! Everybody knows that all chickens lay eggs, right? Let's find out:

1) I believe that all chickens lay eggs.
2) I can produce lots and lots of documented instances of chickens laying eggs.
3) These documented instances serve as incontrovertible demonstration that chickens lay eggs.

Sounds good, right? Honk! Wrong. My claim wasn't that chickens lay eggs. My claim was that ALL chickens lay eggs. To demonstrate the veracity of THAT claim, I would have to provide documentation of every single chicken on Earth laying an egg. I hope you like omelets.

In fact, I think it's fairly obvious that there are, from time to time, chickens who are born without the ability to lay eggs. So to make the claim, "I know that all chickens lay eggs," is probably not a good idea. In fact, if someone produced a chicken who was demonstrably unable to lay an egg, that person could instead make the counter-claim of "I know that not every chicken can lay eggs":

1) I believe that not every chicken can lay eggs.
2) Here's one who can't.
3) See?

And thus we arrive at the crux of my argument and the fatal flaw of yours. You cannot possibly make a knowledge claim about every single person on Earth as regards their religious views toward your god. This is because I, and only I, know what's going on in my head. And just one example of a chicken who doesn't lay eggs is enough to negate your claim.

I'll be more than happy to explain, if you'd like. By amazing coincidence, I, too wish to achieve my dreams and deepest wishes. I just would prefer to do it on my own, by my own merits. I'm really not interested in having anything assist me. It would feel disingenuous; it would feel like cheating. It wouldn't really be me achieving my dreams; it would be your god-thing, whisking me along on its magic cloud. That would spoil the whole thing for me. No, I'll just muddle along on my own two feet, thank you very much. That way, when I do finish my projects and achieve my goals, they'll be mine, and mine alone, to take pride in.

Your telepathic voyeur notwithstanding, I don't really care. If I stumble, I want to fall. I want to slam my knee; I want blood to flow. I need the blood to flow. That is how we learn. We learn how to pick ourselves up, accept the pain of our mistakes, slap on a band-aid and some antibiotics, and go right back at it. I don't need any magic anchors. I trust in myself.

- Xaxyx

Great! I think you may have gotten through to me! I think I unfairly characterized you without the right to do so. I am sorry. I honestly have no idea who you really are or how so-called religious or unreligious you are. I can see that you are certainly an honest and insightful person. Let me try to clarify my assertions without being rude or assuming.

God lives and loves each of us his children. He wants us to be happy and that is the design of our existence. He will never force us to do anything. You should be able to get along with him just fine. He doesn't provide us with any kind of magic elixir that tranforms us into copies of the ideal person or something. Rather, he is a loving Father who cares for us and wants to guide us like any loving parent. Accepting his help willingly is not shameful, it is the mark of a great man (or woman). Where you don't believe in him, obviously he won't be hurt or offended by the fact that you don't want his help. How could he? That would be irrational. However, I do know that he lives. I know that he lives as much as I know that I live. It is a reality. A simple reality. I am not trying to be deceitful or insulting. Far from it, I am only trying to shed light. If you don't accept this, that's okay, I totally understand. But truth exists idependently of our perception of it. God is real. I know you want proof. Don't worry, you'll get your proof some day. God will eventually manifest himself to all people. But we don't have to wait until then to know him. If you ever want to know for yourself, don't hesitate to ask. He'll answer. But be aware, he won't answer if you really don't want him to.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

I do experience this feeling. I experience it frequently. I feel inspired, uplifted. My heart is moved. I am consumed, subsumed, with the sensation of a world, a universe, greater than myself. I am both humbled and awed, transfixed by the vision of a connection with the greatness of creation itself. It is an otherworldly sensation, a seemingly unnatural, almost metaphysical transformation. An incredible, passionate, terribly wonderful feeling, a warm chill. I melt away from myself. Unfettered by my merely mortal shell, I drift, contemplating the nature of reality and my place within it. I am tranquil, at peace, at harmony with the music of everything and nothing. There is so much to this world, so much beauty, and I am privileged to bear witness to even a tiny part of it. I am thankful; and I am happy.

Oh ya, sorry I forgot to adress this. This feeling of being in harmony with the universe, the awe, the gratitude, anyway I can't explain it and you have obviously felt it– this is the feeling that accompanies the voice of the Holy Ghost. It is his signature. I daresay you have been touched by him before. It is something impossible to deny. It is like truth is being borne directly to your soul. There is nothing deceitful or insane about it. It is the most clear, perceptive I ever feel when the Spirit is speaking to me.

 

[rojse]

So whose evidence should I rely on -- other people's or my own?

I wouldn't tell you what to do, Katzpur, you're too nice to me.

Do whatever you wish to do.

But as for myself, I take more stock in scientific studies and the like, because I know that I have been exposed to very few things outside of my normal purview in my life so far.

 

[Xaxyx]

Great! I think you may have gotten through to me! I think I unfairly characterized you without the right to do so. I am sorry. I honestly have no idea who you really are or how so-called religious or unreligious you are. I can see that you are certainly an honest and insightful person. Let me try to clarify my assertions without being rude or assuming.

I appreciate the effort.

God lives and loves each of us his children. He wants us to be happy and that is the design of our existence. He will never force us to do anything. You should be able to get along with him just fine. He doesn't provide us with any kind of magic elixir that tranforms us into copies of the ideal person or something. Rather, he is a loving Father who cares for us and wants to guide us like any loving parent. Accepting his help willingly is not shameful, it is the mark of a great man (or woman). Where you don't believe in him, obviously he won't be hurt or offended by the fact that you don't want his help. How could he? That would be irrational. However, I do know that he lives. I know that he lives as much as I know that I live. It is a reality. A simple reality. I am not trying to be deceitful or insulting. Far from it, I am only trying to shed light. If you don't accept this, that's okay, I totally understand. But truth exists idependently of our perception of it. God is real.

That's quite a stupendous knowledge claim. But you violate the principles of knowledge claims by asserting one without being able to provide evidence for your claim. It is, in every way, equivalent to the claim about aliens that I mentioned earlier. If you cannot provide evidence, then it is not reasonable to make a claim about knowledge.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily looking for photographs or recordings or fingerprints. Just something, anything, that would lead conclusively to the assertion that this godlike creature of yours has an existence of any sort. But if you cannot provide it, then you cannot make a knowledge claim. The very word "know" implies that you can present evidence. Yet you cannot.

You mention the blind man as your analogy. So let's go there. Let's say that I'm blind and you're not. You spot a coconut in a tree. And you assert to me, "Hey, buddy, there's a coconut up in that there tree. I know there is, since I can see it with my own two eyes." Now, I can't see the coconut. I can't see at all; I might not even understand what seeing is. But coconuts are real, and there are plenty of ways for you to demonstrate that they exist. Shake the tree, and have one fall on my head. Build a rope ladder, and help me climb up and touch it myself. And so forth. There are ways even to help the blind to see -- so to speak. Indeed: just telling me "I could bring you a coconut, if you'd like" would probably be enough to convince me; I'd likely just take your word for it, confident in your ability to produce a coconut on demand.

Yet with your godlike creature, no such undertaking can ever provide even a shadow, a fragment of evidence. Your assertions are, to me, fluff and ether. They are no different than the arguments of those who claim to know that there's life on other worlds, or know that there are ghosts in their basement, or know that little green men live in light bulbs. All of these knowledge claims are invalid, illogical, irrational, for they are not based upon demonstrable, reasonably conclusive evidence. They are instead merely based on beliefs, on hopes, on experiences and dreams. And these are insufficient for making knowledge claims.

Now, here's the really important part. You can believe anything that you want. And your beliefs can indeed be based on anything you want them to be. In fact, you can believe anything you want any time you want. It's not necessarily all that irrational, and it's not even necessarily all that offensive. To exemplify this principle, consider the seemingly subtle, yet incredibly important distinction between these two phrases:

"I know that everyone who thinks that there's a god suffers from self-delusion."
"I believe that everyone who thinks that there's a god suffers from self-delusion."

The first sentence is arrogant. It is condescending. It is presumptuous. It implies that I am in command of actual, factual knowledge, so sure of myself that I'm willing and able to make proclamations about a fundamental aspect of every deist on the planet.

The second sentence is not nearly so. It is suspicious; it implicates. But it does not assert. It assumes, but does not presume. it conveys only a sensation, an observation, an opinion. And most importantly, it allows for the possibility that other people's beliefs may be different, even completely contradictory, to one's own.

Mind you, there's nothing necessarily inherently weak or inferior about holding a belief rather than making a knowledge claim. Mainly, it speaks toward your intellectual honesty, which is a good thing. But it also allows for the principle that different people can hold different beliefs simultaneously -- an admission that you have already made, in fact. And there's nothing inherently illogical in that.

But if you make a knowledge claim, then you are simultaneously asserting that anyone, anyone at all, who believes something in contradiction to your knowledge claim must be wrong. THAT is what is implied each and every time you claim knowledge. You know truth; therefore, everyone else must either agree with you, or be mistaken or ignorant or lying. That is arrogant, considering that you have no rational, reasonable basis for your knowledge claim. NOT the belief; that's fine. It's the knowledge claim that I question.

I know you want proof. Don't worry, you'll get your proof some day. God will eventually manifest himself to all people. But we don't have to wait until then to know him. If you ever want to know for yourself, don't hesitate to ask. He'll answer. But be aware, he won't answer if you really don't want him to.

Evidence, actually. Proof is for math and logic. But let's put the theory to test. Which statement is your stance:

1) You know that your god will eventually manifest itself to all people, including me. You can provide demonstrable evidence for this claim, and thus can back up your claim of knowledge. Anyone who disagrees, therefore, is wrong.
2) You believe that your god will eventually manifest itself to all people, including me. You cannot provide demonstrable evidence for this claim, but nevertheless are extremely confident in your belief, based on your own experiences and perceptions. Others, however, may believe differently.

- Xaxyx

 

[Xaxyx]

Oh ya, sorry I forgot to adress this. This feeling of being in harmony with the universe, the awe, the gratitude, anyway I can't explain it and you have obviously felt it– this is the feeling that accompanies the voice of the Holy Ghost. It is his signature. I daresay you have been touched by him before. It is something impossible to deny. It is like truth is being borne directly to your soul. There is nothing deceitful or insane about it. It is the most clear, perceptive I ever feel when the Spirit is speaking to me.

I have no recollection of such an event. Given how dramatic and monumental you seem to feel that experience would be for me, I in turn daresay I'd remember it. Therefore, I am compelled to deny it.

However, amusingly, I cannot make a knowledge claim regarding whether or not I've ever met the Holy Ghost in the past. This is because I have no specific, demonstrable, reasonably conclusive evidence that such an event has never occurred. So I'll just stick with: I believe I've never encountered the Holy Ghost. Just as I believe I've never been abducted by aliens.

- Xaxyx

 

[lilithu]

IMO prayer does not work in any common meaning of the word "works." Do you think it does? If so, what do you mean when you say that prayer works?

Dear God, thank you for this beautiful sunny day. Amen


Did that "work"?


As others have said, there are different kinds of prayer, prayers of gratitude, reflection, and petition. In my congregation, we use all three. But even when we engage in petitionary prayers, it's never "Dear God, please give me a million dollars." It's more like "Spirit of Life, Holy One, God of many names, please watch over Gladys, who has just lost her father. Help her to know that she is surrounded by people who love her." Or "Dear Spirit, please help me to discern which is the best path to take. Open my heart and mind so that I will be receptive to your guidance and the guidance of others."

Does it work? Yes, I think it does. When I take the time to say thanks, it makes me more grateful (and thus happy). When I take the time to reflect, I learn new things. When I take the time to pray for others, I think about others more. And when I take the time to ask for guidance, I am more open to guidance.

Prayer isn't for God. Prayer is for the person praying. It is an act of humility, to help move your own ego out of the way and make room for something bigger in your life.

 

[Nessa]

Asking for world peace or that god spare the millions of kids that die unneedlessly is not only unselfish but a very good prayer to a so-called all-omni benevolent god. And that prayer has been echoed for centuries and remains unanswered.

I remember changing my prayers to a vague prayer as a Christian as a last ditch effort to believe in god. But ultimately, too many people die every day from starvation, wars, and lack of average medical care for me to believe in an all-omni benevolent god.

 

[lilithu]

Asking for world peace or that god spare the millions of kids that die unneedlessly is not only unselfish but a very good prayer to a so-called all-omni benevolent god. And that prayer has been echoed for centuries and remains unanswered.

I remember changing my prayers to a vague prayer as a Christian as a last ditch effort to believe in god. But ultimately, too many people die every day from starvation, wars, and lack of average medical care for me to believe in an all-omni benevolent god.

Working for peace, rather than just asking that it be given to us, is also a form of prayer.

Paraphrasing St. Theresa, "On earth, God has no hands but ours to do the work of justice."

 

[Nessa]

Working for peace, rather than just asking that it be given to us, is also a form of prayer.

Paraphrasing St. Theresa, "On earth, God has no hands but ours to do the work of justice."

I agree with you but unfortunately, it still remains unanswered.

 

[lilithu]

I agree with you but unfortunately, it still remains unanswered.

If you stop even one act of violence, then the prayer has been answered for that one act of violence.

 

[Autodidact]

The facts of whom? Scientists with limited understanding.

Of course, who else are we going to get scientific evidence from, plumbers? Is there some kind of human whose understanding is not limited? That's really the best we have to work with. Do you oppose science generally, or only when it disagrees with you? If you discard science, how are you going to establish that intercessory prayer does work?

Ah, you're right. It seems many experiments in this field have not been conducted properly, including some that I had mentioned. I admit I didn't do all of my homework in that respect.

In particular, I direct you to the long awaited Templeton Foundation funded study of heart patients in 2006. The Templeton Foundation is a religiously oriented group hoping for evidence in support of the efficacy of prayer. The study used very good methodology, and used the largest group to date. The results? The Largest Study of Third-Party Remote Intercessory Prayer Suggests Prayer Not Effective in Reducing Complications Following Heart Surgery. Those working in the field consider this to be the definitive study, and until some evidence to the contrary comes along, clearly indicates that prayer is not effective in this way. pubmed

Although I find it interesting that every study considered credible has produced results not in favor of prayer. Let's say hypothetically for a moment that prayer does not work. Wouldn't there still be plenty of cases where the control groups did worse than the variable ones, since prayer is supposedly nothing more than chance?

No, why? However I believe at least one study found exactly this result.

Well then, I find it confusing when you tell me here that nothing has ever been definitely proven by scientific means, but in a previous post of yours (#97) you stated, "it has been definitively established that prayer has no effect". Surely science has proven things. For example, it has been definitively established that eyes use light to see; that without a brain we cannot function; that without water we cannot survive. However the study of prayer obviously is not that simple, regardless of how much anyone wants to believe it is.

Proof means absolute, as in math or formal logic. Science is empirical. It can definitively establish something with all the evidence we have so far, but is always open to new evidence; that's the way empirical knowledge works. In this area, all the evidence we have establishes pretty well that prayer is not effective in this way. However, if a study came along to the contrary, such as that prayer to Ctulhu is effective, we would have to factor that information in. So far this has not happened.

But it is complicated. We cannot tell people to pray for others who are hospitalized and then expect positive results every time, or even at all.

Exactly. What we can expect is that they will get exactly the same possibility of positive results as if they had not prayed at all. That is what the evidence shows.

There is an element in this field that cannot be measured: God.

That's right. If God exists, neither He nor His actions can be detected or measured. That's why it's wrong to say that prayer is effective. To say that, we would need to be able to detect and measure God's actions, which is not possible.

Whether you believe in His existence or not is not the point; it is that if science truly wants to prove something, all aspects must be taken into consideration. The true nature of prayer and God cannot be crammed into an experiment. If all the prayers were perfect, who's to say that God did not reject them due to His perfect foresight?

Which is exactly the same as not working.

Science has no way to prove or disprove this and therefore it is completely lacking the proper understanding and grounds to conduct any reliable research, whether the results be in favor of prayer or not.

In that case, never say that it works. You have absolutely no way to show this.

Yes, that is what science is for, but you altered my words again. I said, "something not understood by science cannot be proven by science". Scientists can study whatever they want, but it cannot go around claiming definitive results when the subject being studied isn't even understood.

Sure they can. Aspirin is effective against headaches. We have no idea why, nor do we need to. We can test and measure its effectiveness.

That's like me claiming to have discovered undeniable proof of evolution without even understanding the first thing about biology.

No, it's not.

If what you've given me so far is considered irrefutable fact, then I'll take my chances being 'incorrect'.

That's a weird way to live your life. That's like knowing fire burns, but sticking your hand in it anyway.

Interesting, but I know you understood my point. The human mind is limited, therefore our knowledge is limited.

Of course it is, but this applies to all knowledge, including that which you rely on every day. There is not a special exception for your knowledge of God, which is exactly as limited as all other knowledge. This limited knowledge is all we have. What we've learned is that the best way to advance it is by the scientific method. It works.

Okay, yes, we only know a tiny bit. So who's to say this tiny bit holds all the pieces to definitely prove that prayer is either effective or ineffective? It doesn't, and it is (to me) naive to assume it does.

Who's to say this tiny bit shows us the world is round? It's all we've got. "This tiny bit" is the sum total of what science has discovered. I doubt that you want to throw that out the window because it is not, and can never be, complete, do you?

 

[Autodidact]

I think the problem with prayer is we too often try to change God's will to our will. If that is your goal when praying, it won't work. If your purpose in praying is to try and find out God's will and align yourself with it, that absolutely works. I know this much.

Exactly. And "God's will" is another term for "what was going to happen anyway." Prayer may help you accept what was going to happen anyway. It is not going to change it. So, Davy, you never pray for someone to recover from illness or anything like that? Because most people do.

 

[Nessa]

If you stop even one act of violence, then the prayer has been answered for that one act of violence.

An atheist can stop one act of violence, that doesn't suggest prayer works. Especially in a world as old as ours. The history of the earth suggests that we are seemingly unable to control violence with or without floods, burning of godless cities, prayer, or individual accomplishments.

I'm not suggesting we stop trying, but merely questioning the existence of an all-omni benevolent god and his response to our prayers.

 

[Autodidact]

We cannot explain everything that happens in life. We don't see the whole picture. This life is not the end and it was not the beginning. The things we do in this life affect what will happen in the next. Things that happened before this life can affect us now. When we are born with apparent disadvantages, it can be easy to pass judgement on God and say "how can you have done that?" In fact, I often struggle with understanding why there is so much inequality in the world. This may sound dumb but for me the question is "Why do I have so much when others have so little?" "Why do I have a healthy, functional body when other people are blind or only have one arm or are born with a terrible disease? Why was I born in a time when there is so much knowledge and enlightenment? Why was I born to such a loving, caring family? Why was I blessed to have so much?"
I'll tell you why, I don't know. But I do know that one day it will all make sense. I don't know all the answers, but God does. You may think that it is folly for me to think in this way. I don't blame you. It sounds like folly at first. Trusting in God is a transforming process. We learn to trust gradually as we try to follow his commandments. As we slowly learn to put faith in him, our faith grows from a dim spark into a burning flame. But it starts with baby steps. It starts with a desire to know God. It starts with the first time we really humble ourselves and kneel down and ask God for help. We all need him. And he needs us. He loves us and wants us to talk to him. He can understand us and our problems. He knows what we struggle with and what we are going through. He knows how to help us. That's why we need to pray to him.

You do realize that you contradicted yourself a whole bunch of times in this post, right? First you say that we can't understand, can't know, and then proceed to tell us everything that you magically do know. You don't any more know that God needs us than anyone does that He even exists. "We don't see the whole picture," Davy, including the picture that has God existing.

 

[Autodidact]

Because of the Holy Ghost, which speaks to the heart of man.

How do you know this?

You learn more about someone as you get to know them better. I have learned through personal experience to trust God. He doesn't lie. He said "Take my yoke upon you for my burden is easy and my yoke is light."

You heard him say this? With your own ears? Can I hear him? How?

If we come unto him and have faith in him, he will guide us through all our problems. I'm sorry you resent it, but it doesn't change anything.

Make assumptions much? I don't resent it in the least, because it's not true.

The reason is that in order for him to help us, we must first make an effort to seek his help. He can only truly help us when we seek to know and follow him. That is why he needs us. He needs us to cooperate so that he can help us. It's like he said "I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
I realize that you probably really don't see the need. That's okay. There will come a time when you do. Either in this life or the next. When that time comes, remember, he will always be there to help us.

And you know this how?

Guess what, I've got a holy ghost too, and he told me the precise opposite of everything you said. So I know you're absolutely 100% wrong, due to my holy ghost, who knows the heart of woman. Do you find this argument remotely effective? If not, why would yours be effective to me?

What you're saying is, "I know because I know, so believe me because I said so." Do you honestly expect me to be that gullible?