Does prayer work?

[darkendless]

"Its intention may be kind, but its effect is in fact neutral. And sometimes its intention is cruel. "

Agreed, prayer really is nothing more than one person's attempt to use a greater power for their own purposes, which by definition could be anything from benign to malignant. HItler praying for victory in WWII would be an example of malignant intent.

Hitler didn't pray he was part of a satanic cult (Theism's attempt at pushing their guilt onto someone else, how typical)

I could pray all i want and nothing would happen. I guess that means im either not doing it right or God hates me right?
I prayed when i was a child because i got dragged to church, people would pray for all sorts of material rubbish. How stupid are they, do you think God's really going to send you a new fridge by some divine miracle, wake up.

Praying for someone else's well being and to better understand yourself are probably the only good things prayer achieves. Other than that, i cant see any purpose when God sure as hell isn't going to answer you back.

 

[Charity]

Hitler didn't pray he was part of a satanic cult (Theism's attempt at pushing their guilt onto someone else, how typical)

I could pray all i want and nothing would happen. I guess that means im either not doing it right or God hates me right?
I prayed when i was a child because i got dragged to church, people would pray for all sorts of material rubbish. How stupid are they, do you think God's really going to send you a new fridge by some divine miracle, wake up.

Praying for someone else's well being and to better understand yourself are probably the only good things prayer achieves. Other than that, i cant see any purpose when God sure as hell isn't going to answer you back.

God doesn't hate you, and you have to pray in faith, believe when you pray....
I know guys you keep saying that it only helps the one who is praying.

 

[Autodidact]

Prayer by itself is meant to be thoughtful, reflective. Praying is void if that's all I do, because prayer is based upon sincerity and intention. If I pray for a sick person, but totally ignore my ability to help them, then my prayer meant nothing anyway.

Absolutely correct. It's also void if you do something actually helpful, which would have been just as helpful without the prayer. The effective part is the action; the prayer does nothing (for the person being prayed for.)

No, it isn't a time issue. I don't know when my prayer's going to be answered, or if it ever will be. Though it's personal perspective I suppose.

No one does, because it will be answered at the exact same time and at the exact same rate as if you hadn't prayed.

Good luck to whoever decides to try.

Try this one: Pray for heads, and flip a coin 50 times. See what you get.

It's as I said...if you were to need a ride, I wouldn't be at home mindlessly praying for you. I'd get in my car in give you one if my intention were there and if I sincerely wanted to help you out.

So, again, why bother with the prayer part? What good does it do me?

Immeasurable = without measure; exceeding ability to be measured. The wind is invisible but we know it's there.

But it's not immeasurable, is it?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Thought I would share a post I made on an old thread, which wasn't to do with prayer but whether or not God exists and thought it had some relevance to this thread.

On the assumption that God doesn't exist, I would say yes as many people compare it to meditation. Its just relaxing, calms the mind, helps you think clearer and make better decisions and lead a (on the most part and in a perfect world

) happy life! I suppose its sort of like speaking to your conciousness. If you are confused about something ever spoken it allowed to yourself to make it clearer? (obviously with noone else looking!

)

Basically my point is whether you believe in God or not prayer can work! Depends on what you are praying for obviously! I think sometimes in life, it is our own actions that affect our future and the clearing of the mind would obviously help the actions you take and thereby your future......

 

[Autodidact]

To Sui:

If X + Y = Y, then X = 0
If results of prayer + action = results of action, then results of prayer = 0.

 

[rojse]

For the real believers in prayer this means nothing ofcourse, God grants only "improvement" to the real needy and knows when there is a test going on.

Someone's life isn't that important, because God does not want to prove the effectiveness of prayers?

 

[Sui]

Absolutely correct. It's also void if you do something actually helpful, which would have been just as helpful without the prayer. The effective part is the action; the prayer does nothing (for the person being prayed for.)

Prayer is effective, just not as obvious as the effectiveness of physical action.

No one does, because it will be answered at the exact same time and at the exact same rate as if you hadn't prayed.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Who knows?

Try this one: Pray for heads, and flip a coin 50 times. See what you get.

You're telling me to base my prayers on something as trivial as coin flipping when I've been denying the triviality of them the entire time? If I were to do this, and I get more tails than heads, it means nothing. If I were to get more heads than tails, it would still mean nothing. Prayer is not based on chance.

So, again, why bother with the prayer part? What good does it do me?

What harm does it do you? None at all. You seem to think that I pray for every single pointless thing that comes to mind. If I can give you a ride or a cup of coffee, I'd be working on doing just that.

But it's not immeasurable, is it?

You're right, wind isn't immeasurable. Not these days at least. But what about gravity? When Newton first claimed its existence everyone thought he was crazy, whereas in modern times we have no doubt that it exists. I agree that there is no sound evidence of prayer's effectiveness at this point. The future, on the other hand, may possibly be very different.

 

[Autodidact]

Prayer is effective, just not as obvious as the effectiveness of physical action.

In what way?

Perhaps, perhaps not. Who knows?

The people who tried the experiments.

You're telling me to base my prayers on something as trivial as coin flipping when I've been denying the triviality of them the entire time? If I were to do this, and I get more tails than heads, it means nothing. If I were to get more heads than tails, it would still mean nothing. Prayer is not based on chance.

You miss the point entirely. Coin-flipping is an example. It was chosen precisely because it is random. The point is that all the prayer in the world does not alter the result one jot from pure random chance. That is, prayer has no effect. Not an effect later, not a subtle effect, no effect. None. (on the person being prayed for.)

Try this one: Take 200 people with brain cancer. Pray earnestly for 100 of them, and don't pray at all for the other 100. Don't tell anyone which is which. Does the prayed for group recover at a higher rate than the not-prayed for?

What harm does it do you? None at all. You seem to think that I pray for every single pointless thing that comes to mind. If I can give you a ride or a cup of coffee, I'd be working on doing just that.

No harm at all. Also no benefit. I have no idea whether you pray at all. They're examples. The idea is to demonstrate the effect, or lack thereof, of prayer. The same result when you pray for an end to war, or a mole on your elbow to go away.

You're right, wind isn't immeasurable. Not these days at least. But what about gravity? When Newton first claimed its existence everyone thought he was crazy, whereas in modern times we have no doubt that it exists. I agree that there is no sound evidence of prayer's effectiveness at this point. The future, on the other hand, may possibly be very different.

And we may also find evidence of gnomes and fairies. On the other hand, we may not. Is it your habit to believe in things with no evidence in support, in the hope that some may appear some day?

Mormons in this forum are still waiting for a shred of evidence that Lamanites came to America, and fervently believe it will come one day. They are exactly as likely to be right as you are.

 

[Katzpur]

Mormons in this forum are still waiting for a shred of evidence that Lamanites came to America, and fervently believe it will come one day.

Actually, most Mormons on this forum are waiting much more fervently for you to knock off the never-ending insults directed at our beliefs, but it doesn't appear very likely that this will ever happen.

My sister, who was an agnostic leaning towards atheism for at least thirty-five of her fifty-five years, recently came to believe that God does exist. This spring, her 17-year-old son, who has Cystic Fibrosis, was in a rollover (3 complete rolls) automobile accident on the interstate east of Salt Lake City, and crushed four vertebrae (cervical and thoracic). He was neither killed nor paralyzed. The doctors were extremely concerned, not only about his broken back, but about the effect that his lengthy recovery would have on his Cystic Fibrosis, since he would be unable to continue with his breathing treatments while he was in his brace. It has now been almost exactly six months since his accident. He has no remaining problems whatsoever with his spine and his CF is no worse than it was before the accident.

Two weeks into her son's hospital stay, my sister's 54-year-old husband found out that he had prostate cancer and had to undergo surgery. After the follow-up exam a month after the surgery, his surgeon reported that he got every last spec of the cancer out. My brother in law is now 100% cancer-free.

Two months later, my 95-year-old mother suddenly became very, very sick. We ended up calling in hospice and were preparing for her to die within a week or ten days. Now, more than two months later, she is improving every day. There is absolutely no reason for us to believe that she will not be around to celebrate -- in good health -- her 96th birthday nine months from now.

Obviously, the skeptics will remain unimpressed, but my sister finally acknowledged the fact that all of these things were more than mere coincidence and for what was probably the first time in thirty-five years, she prayed. She told me exactly what she said in her prayer (and it sounded just like her):

"Okay God, you win. You exist. Thank you."

I'd been praying for thirty-five years that she would someday realize that God exists, knows each of us personally, is aware of our needs, and will answer our prayers. My prayers for her, for her son, for her husband, and for my mother have been answered. I don't know about anybody else's prayers, but my prayers work.

 

[rojse]

Actually, most Mormons on this forum are waiting much more fervently for you to knock off the never-ending insults directed at our beliefs, but it doesn't appear very likely that this will ever happen.

My sister, who was an agnostic leaning towards atheism for at least thirty-five of her fifty-five years, recently came to believe that God does exist. This spring, her 17-year-old son, who has Cystic Fibrosis, was in a rollover (3 complete rolls) automobile accident on the interstate east of Salt Lake City, and crushed four vertebrae (cervical and thoracic). He was neither killed nor paralyzed. The doctors were extremely concerned, not only about his broken back, but about the effect that his lengthy recovery would have on his Cystic Fibrosis, since he would be unable to continue with his breathing treatments while he was in his brace. It has now been almost exactly six months since his accident. He has no remaining problems whatsoever with his spine and his CF is no worse than it was before the accident.

Two weeks into her son's hospital stay, my sister's 54-year-old husband found out that he had prostate cancer and had to undergo surgery. After the follow-up exam a month after the surgery, his surgeon reported that he got every last spec of the cancer out. My brother in law is now 100% cancer-free.

Two months later, my 95-year-old mother suddenly became very, very sick. We ended up calling in hospice and were preparing for her to die within a week or ten days. Now, more than two months later, she is improving every day. There is absolutely no reason for us to believe that she will not be around to celebrate -- in good health -- her 96th birthday nine months from now.

Obviously, the skeptics will remain unimpressed, but my sister finally acknowledged the fact that all of these things were more than mere coincidence and for what was probably the first time in thirty-five years, she prayed. She told me exactly what she said in her prayer (and it sounded just like her):

"Okay God, you win. You exist. Thank you."

I'd been praying for thirty-five years that she would someday realize that God exists, knows each of us personally, is aware of our needs, and will answer our prayers. My prayers for her, for her son, for her husband, and for my mother have been answered. I don't know about anybody else's prayers, but my prayers work.

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that everyone has their own stories. I am sure that there are other people that could equally post their own stories of how their prayers weren't answered.

 

[Katzpur]

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that everyone has their own stories. I am sure that there are other people that could equally post their own stories of how their prayers weren't answered.

So whose evidence should I rely on -- other people's or my own?

 

[lunamoth]

I'm with you katz. My personal experience is that prayer 'works,' God listens to us and responds to us. I've had many prayers answered. Prayer is the engine of the world.

Auto, you say that the physical act you make is more important (the only important act) than the spiritual act of prayer. But the physical act was the result of prayer as well.

I think prayer raises all boats together. When I pray for my nephew dealing with CF, I am praying for all who are afflicted by CF. When I pray for comfort to those who suffer, it is for all who suffer. Thus, you can't subject prayer to scientific testing: there is no control subject.

And, were someone to conduct a study in which 100% of people prayed for were cured and 100% of those not prayed for remained ill, what would that say about God?

 

[Sui]

In what way?

Without any bit of sound evidence, I honestly see nothing useful I could put here.

The people who tried the experiments.

Are the people who tried the experiments with infinite knowledge of the way our universe works? There's no way for any (modern) experiment to prove that prayer works, however there is no way to prove that it doesn't either.

You miss the point entirely. Coin-flipping is an example. It was chosen precisely because it is random. The point is that all the prayer in the world does not alter the result one jot from pure random chance. That is, prayer has no effect. Not an effect later, not a subtle effect, no effect. None. (on the person being prayed for.)

Try this one: Take 200 people with brain cancer. Pray earnestly for 100 of them, and don't pray at all for the other 100. Don't tell anyone which is which. Does the prayed for group recover at a higher rate than the not-prayed for?

As entirely as you miss mine. Most sincere prayers are not going to be about pointless random things. They're going to be purposeful and thought out well. Your second suggestion is much more fitting than flipping coins. Although many experiments have been conducted under these conditions...some have resulted in favor of prayer and others haven't. Nothing is scientifically proven at this point.

No harm at all. Also no benefit. I have no idea whether you pray at all. They're examples. The idea is to demonstrate the effect, or lack thereof, of prayer. The same result when you pray for an end to war, or a mole on your elbow to go away.

I understand that what you said were examples. I was just making a point from a more personal viewpoint, but I didn't mean just me specifically. My overall intention was to make you realize that, as I said above, most sincere prayers are thoughtful, not random or mindless. As for the point you wanted to make, if someone prays for an end to the war, who is going to prove that their prayer did not help the soldiers in any way?

And we may also find evidence of gnomes and fairies. On the other hand, we may not. Is it your habit to believe in things with no evidence in support, in the hope that some may appear some day?

Mormons in this forum are still waiting for a shred of evidence that Lamanites came to America, and fervently believe it will come one day. They are exactly as likely to be right as you are.

Well, if the future brings evidence of gnomes and fairies living in enchanted forests, then I guess we'll both be proven wrong. It is my habit to follow what I believe in, regardless of whether it seems pointless or illogical to some. Mormons are not wrong in following their beliefs, nor are other Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans or anyone else. It's personal opinion and perspective, we should all just live and let live.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that everyone has their own stories. I am sure that there are other people that could equally post their own stories of how their prayers weren't answered.

Like mine:

My father was diagnosed with non-Hodgkins lymphoma in May, 2005. Over the following months, despite treatment, he got progressively worse. Many people prayed for him; my wife even got a mass at her church dedicated to him. For several months, a large number of devout people in a number of religions regularly and earnestly prayed for his recovery.

He died in December 2005, three months before his sixty-first birthday.

Katzpur, I'm happy that your nephew, brother-in-law and mother all recovered... but the flipside to concluding that God chose to answer your prayers and rid them of their afflictions is that God chose to ignore the prayers of people in and around my family, and let my father's affliction run its course.

 

[Autodidact]

Actually, most Mormons on this forum are waiting much more fervently for you to knock off the never-ending insults directed at our beliefs, but it doesn't appear very likely that this will ever happen.

Just the facts.

My sister, who was an agnostic leaning towards atheism for at least thirty-five of her fifty-five years, recently came to believe that God does exist. This spring, her 17-year-old son, who has Cystic Fibrosis, was in a rollover (3 complete rolls) automobile accident on the interstate east of Salt Lake City, and crushed four vertebrae (cervical and thoracic). He was neither killed nor paralyzed. The doctors were extremely concerned, not only about his broken back, but about the effect that his lengthy recovery would have on his Cystic Fibrosis, since he would be unable to continue with his breathing treatments while he was in his brace. It has now been almost exactly six months since his accident. He has no remaining problems whatsoever with his spine and his CF is no worse than it was before the accident.

Two weeks into her son's hospital stay, my sister's 54-year-old husband found out that he had prostate cancer and had to undergo surgery. After the follow-up exam a month after the surgery, his surgeon reported that he got every last spec of the cancer out. My brother in law is now 100% cancer-free.

Two months later, my 95-year-old mother suddenly became very, very sick. We ended up calling in hospice and were preparing for her to die within a week or ten days. Now, more than two months later, she is improving every day. There is absolutely no reason for us to believe that she will not be around to celebrate -- in good health -- her 96th birthday nine months from now.

Obviously, the skeptics will remain unimpressed, but my sister finally acknowledged the fact that all of these things were more than mere coincidence and for what was probably the first time in thirty-five years, she prayed. She told me exactly what she said in her prayer (and it sounded just like her):

"Okay God, you win. You exist. Thank you."

I'd been praying for thirty-five years that she would someday realize that God exists, knows each of us personally, is aware of our needs, and will answer our prayers. My prayers for her, for her son, for her husband, and for my mother have been answered. I don't know about anybody else's prayers, but my prayers work.

Is it your contention that Mormons who are prayed for recover from cancer or car accidents at a greater rate than some other group? If so, on what do you base this assertion? If not, then what is the relevance of these stories?

Are you asserting that your prayers are particularly effective? That you are the one person on the planet who can affect reality with your prayers?

Soon after my friend stopped believing in God, she recovered from cancer. Therefore there is no God. Does this make any sense to you?

For years, I've been flipping a coin in the hope it would cause my friend to become an atheist. Now she is. Therefore, flipping a coin caused her to stop believing in God.

I'm snapping my fingers to keep alligators away. It's working.

btw, in each of these stories, which do you think had more effect, your prayers, or the hard work of the doctors and science behind their care? Without the doctors, do you think your prayers would have had the slightest effect?

 

[Autodidact]

So whose evidence should I rely on -- other people's or my own?

The thing about actual evidence is that we all share it equally. If you can't, then it isn't evidence.

 

[Autodidact]

Without any bit of sound evidence, I honestly see nothing useful I could put here.

Exactly. It works in exactly no way.

Are the people who tried the experiments with infinite knowledge of the way our universe works? There's no way for any (modern) experiment to prove that prayer works, however there is no way to prove that it doesn't either.

You seem very confused about experiments. The purpose of experiments is to allow people who don't have knowledge of something to get that knowledge. In fact there have been quite a lot of experiments that have demonstrated over and over again that prayer does not work. Doctors actually took two groups of people recovering from surgery, had people pray earnestly for one and not the other, with neither the people in the study nor the doctors studying the patients knowing who was who. The patients who were prayed for did not recover any better than those who were not. The prayer did not work.

If things actually produce actual results in the actual world, then it is not at all impossible to detect that.

As entirely as you miss mine. Most sincere prayers are not going to be about pointless random things. They're going to be purposeful and thought out well.

It doesn't make any difference how purposeful, or how well thought out. They still will have absolutely no effectg.

Your second suggestion is much more fitting than flipping coins. Although many experiments have been conducted under these conditions...some have resulted in favor of prayer and others haven't. Nothing is scientifically proven at this point.

Baloney. Would you like the sites? It has been definitively established that prayer has no effect. It turned out that the only study that found any effect was cheating.

I understand that what you said were examples. I was just making a point from a more personal viewpoint, but I didn't mean just me specifically. My overall intention was to make you realize that, as I said above, most sincere prayers are thoughtful, not random or mindless.

It doesn't matter how thoughtful they are; they have no effect.

As for the point you wanted to make, if someone prays for an end to the war, who is going to prove that their prayer did not help the soldiers in any way?

Is it your habit to believe things without evidence? If someone snaps their fingers for an end to the war, who is going to prove that their snaps did not help the soldiers in any way?

Well, if the future brings evidence of gnomes and fairies living in enchanted forests, then I guess we'll both be proven wrong. It is my habit to follow what I believe in, regardless of whether it seems pointless or illogical to some. Mormons are not wrong in following their beliefs, nor are other Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans or anyone else. It's personal opinion and perspective, we should all just live and let live.

This is really, really, basic logic. If they believe opposite things, they cannot all be right. A cannot be not A. Is it your habit to believe things without evidence in support? It's a simple yes or no question.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur, I'm happy that your nephew, brother-in-law and mother all recovered... but the flipside to concluding that God chose to answer your prayers and rid them of their afflictions is that God chose to ignore the prayers of people in and around my family, and let my father's affliction run its course.

I have never claimed that God has given me everything I've ever asked him for. Quite the contrary. I'm sorry I gave you that impression.

 

[Katzpur]

Is it your contention that Mormons who are prayed for recover from cancer or car accidents at a greater rate than some other group? If so, on what do you base this assertion? If not, then what is the relevance of these stories?

Are you asserting that your prayers are particularly effective? That you are the one person on the planet who can affect reality with your prayers?

Soon after my friend stopped believing in God, she recovered from cancer. Therefore there is no God. Does this make any sense to you?

For years, I've been flipping a coin in the hope it would cause my friend to become an atheist. Now she is. Therefore, flipping a coin caused her to stop believing in God.

I'm snapping my fingers to keep alligators away. It's working.

btw, in each of these stories, which do you think had more effect, your prayers, or the hard work of the doctors and science behind their care? Without the doctors, do you think your prayers would have had the slightest effect?

I'm not going to argue with you Auto. Past experience has proven that you and I can seldom if ever find anything on which we can agree. You asked a question, "Does prayer work?" You got my answer: "My prayers work for me." I'm sorry, but I will not be pulled further into a debate in which leads nowhere but in circles.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not going to argue with you Auto. Past experience has proven that you and I can seldom if ever find anything on which we can agree. You asked a question, "Does prayer work?" You got my answer: "My prayers work for me." I'm sorry, but I will not be pulled further into a debate in which leads nowhere but in circles.

Then why did you? You were fine with arguing with me, until I responded to you, when suddenly you didn't want to defend your arguments.

This is a discussion forum. Its purpose is discussion. Specifically, each separate forum is for debate of the subject of that forum. If you're not interested in debating, don't post.