Does prayer work?

[rojse]

I find the article...especially the part where people who know that people are 'praying' for them are more likely to suffer complications funny.

I don't see any humour there, but then again, I do not consider myself a funny guy.

How about saying you will pray for someone, when they have lied about what is wrong?

What does this prove? If I recall correctly, there were three groups - those that did not receive prayers, those that did receive prayers and were not prayed to, and those that did receive prayers and were prayed to. Now, if prayer was supposed to help people recover in some way, we would expect the third group to recover the quickest, and the first and second groups to recover without any statistical difference. That they did not proves that prayer did not work in the study.

You will find that there are people wihtout scrupples who will tell you that they are in a terrible state, and that they have the worst kind of problems ....and the next thing they have people praying for them, when there is actually nothing much wrong to start with.

What relevance does this have to the power of prayer?

 

[BucephalusBB]

What does this prove? If I recall correctly, there were three groups - those that did not receive prayers, those that did receive prayers and were not prayed to, and those that did receive prayers and were prayed to. Now, if prayer was supposed to help people recover in some way, we would expect the third group to recover the quickest, and the first and second groups to recover without any statistical difference. That they did not proves that prayer did not work in the study.

For the real believers in prayer this means nothing ofcourse, God grants only "improvement" to the real needy and knows when there is a test going on.
The question there would be, if God only helps the needy and knows when someone is needy, why our need to ask?

 

[crystalonyx]

Prayer is illogical, in that people will be requesting "things" of a supposed god that work at cross purposes. Of course, the prime example of this are 2 nations at war where both sides are praying for victory.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

IMO prayer does not work in any common meaning of the word "works." Do you think it does? If so, what do you mean when you say that prayer works?

As an agnostic, you are going to think I'm crazy, but I believe that prayer does "work", in one sense of the word.

For those that believe, there can be great solace to be found in prayer. Mind you, I don't believe there is anything on the receiving end of the prayer, but the prayer itself often has at least a cathartic effect on the one offering the prayer.

 

[Autodidact]

I wish I could be so certain

Well, fairly certain. As certain, for example, as I am that astrology has no helpful information to offer.

Or, equally ineffective which is what you seem to be saying.

Exactly.

Are you suggesting that when I pray I also can't manage to think of something that will help? Did God not give me an intellect as well to help myself or others?

Oh no, I'm sure you can. But it would be the thinking that might help, not the prayer.

I'd pray for you because I feel that there is biblical precidence for intercessory prayer.

Even though you know it does no good?

How can you be so sure?

The same way I'm fairly sure that aspirin helps a headache or the earth is round.

Effective at prayer was meant to accomplish.

Meant by whom? For what?

I thought those have been covered enough in prior posts?

Exactly. It's effective at helping you feel better. It's not effective at helping someone else's knee, or for him to become a better person, or anything else outside yourself. So why do it?

Prayer is helpful and important for me.

I understand that.

Whether you think it's ineffective or not has no relevance to me.

It's not about what I think; it's about reality and the truth. It's not that I think it doesn't do anything, it's that in reality we have learned that it does not.

If I felt that way I probably wouldn't pray.

So you agree that prayer accomplishes nothing out side of yourself, but you do it anyway because it helps you feel better?

There's also many instances in the Bible that Christians are called to pray.

I understand that. I think Christians should be realistic though that the Bible is telling them to do something that doesn't have any affect on the world outside themselves.

I don't mean to sound insulting but I believe I will continue to follow Jesus' command in this area of my life instead of somebody that obviously (or so it seems) has never personally experienced this power in their life.

Again, not about me; about reality. Why not say you follow Jesus' example rather than reality?

Besides the obviously answer that I assume you will give me, how do you expect me to know God if you don't pray?

If you believe there is a God, and that prayer helps you to know Him, by all means pray. But why pray for me or Castor's knee or anything else outside yourself? That's the question.

 

[Autodidact]

Just because someone prays for something doesn't mean it isn't translated into action too. For example, taking care of someone. If I do my utmost best to make them comfortable and try to help them recover, what's some prayer going to hurt. Even a few minutes of kindness is never a waste of time.

But why bother with the prayer part? Why not just get on with the kindness?

As for the effectiveness, many prayers don't work outwardly, or even at all (for the time being).

Or ever.

That doesn't make them pointless

Isn't that the very definition of pointless?

Taking care of a person may not always outwardly work either.

But then again, it may. Chances are that it does some good--that's why you do it.

Does that make our kind intentions and thoughtful actions toward the person pointless too?

No, it's the exact opposite. It helps. That's why you do it.

Of course not. Prayers aren't extravagant displays of asking for a new car and watching it appear out of thin air in the driveway. Perhaps a prayer simply sparks inspiration, hope, or contentment in even just one person. Maybe that wouldn't change your world, but it sure could very well change theirs.

Yes, it can do these things--in the person praying. The point is that it does absolutely nothing for the person prayed for. It's as if someone said, "I'm going through a hard time; my child is very sick." And you said, "I'll flip a coin for you and your child." Kinda pointless, don't you think?

 

[Autodidact]

As an agnostic, you are going to think I'm crazy, but I believe that prayer does "work", in one sense of the word.

For those that believe, there can be great solace to be found in prayer. Mind you, I don't believe there is anything on the receiving end of the prayer, but the prayer itself often has at least a cathartic effect on the one offering the prayer.

Yes, I agree with this. When I used to pray, it helped me feel that I was doing something when there was nothing more I could do.

 

[Ringer]

Just so I have an understanding, you believe prayer doesn't "work" because there hasn't been a scientific study to conclusively prove so?

 

[crystalonyx]

It would be nearly impossible to design a study to prove prayer works, due to the nature of the topic itself. The factor of belief of both the person praying and being prayed for would come into play, and how would you set up any kind of accurate "double-blind" test, since knowing you are being prayed for should be a factor in the outcome.

Can't be done.

 

[Sui]

But why bother with the prayer part? Why not just get on with the kindness?

They surely can go hand-in-hand, since kindness is a form of prayer, and prayer is a form of kindness.

Isn't that the very definition of pointless?

Sure, if you ignored the "for the time being" part.

But then again, it may. Chances are that it does some good--that's why you do it.

Chances are that prayer does some good too. What "some good" means in particular is up to interpretation.

No, it's the exact opposite. It helps. That's why you do it.

Actions help, just maybe not always in the way we want or expect. Prayer works the same way.

Yes, it can do these things--in the person praying. The point is that it does absolutely nothing for the person prayed for. It's as if someone said, "I'm going through a hard time; my child is very sick." And you said, "I'll flip a coin for you and your child." Kinda pointless, don't you think?

Flipping a coin? Pointless for sure; though correlating prayer and coin flipping is a matter of perspective. If you're looking for definite tangible evidence to erase all possible doubt, I can't say that anyone has it. Although studies have been conducted that result both in favor of and against prayer, it is not a black and white subject. There are countless gray areas.

 

[Autodidact]

Just so I have an understanding, you believe prayer doesn't "work" because there hasn't been a scientific study to conclusively prove so?

No, primarily because there have been several studies that indicate that it doesn't.

 

[Autodidact]

They surely can go hand-in-hand, since kindness is a form of prayer, and prayer is a form of kindness.

No, they are two different things entirely, as Charity demonstrated in this thread when she prayed to be annoying. One does something; the other does not.

Sure, if you ignored the "for the time being" part.

Ever. It doesn't help now, doesn't help ten years from now--doesn't help. Period.

Chances are that prayer does some good too. What "some good" means in particular is up to interpretation.

Whatever good it does, it's not for the person being prayed for. It does them no good at all, chances or no chances.

Actions help, just maybe not always in the way we want or expect. Prayer works the same way.

No, it doesn't. That's my point. Actions do something; prayer does nothing. If I give you a ride, you get somewhere. If I pray for you to get there; it has no effect. If I give you a cup of coffee, you get a cup of coffee. If I pray for you to get a cup of coffee, you are no more likely to get it than if I don't. If I send money, a victim of a Tsunami may get some relief. If I pray for them, they're no better off than if I don't.

Flipping a coin? Pointless for sure; though correlating prayer and coin flipping is a matter of perspective.

They both have the exact same effect on the outside world.

If you're looking for definite tangible evidence to erase all possible doubt, I can't say that anyone has it.

I'm looking for any credible evidence.

Although studies have been conducted that result both in favor of and against prayer, it is not a black and white subject. There are countless gray areas.

NO, it's not. We now have several studies, and all the ones whose methodology wasn't completely fraudulent came to the same conclusion: no effect. None. Zip. Bupkus. That's the degree to which prayer works, in the sense of affecting anything outside the person prayed for.

 

[Charity]

No, they are two different things entirely, as Charity demonstrated in this thread when she prayed to be annoying. One does something; the other does not.

Ever. It doesn't help now, doesn't help ten years from now--doesn't help. Period.

Whatever good it does, it's not for the person being prayed for. It does them no good at all, chances or no chances.

No, it doesn't. That's my point. Actions do something; prayer does nothing. If I give you a ride, you get somewhere. If I pray for you to get there; it has no effect. If I give you a cup of coffee, you get a cup of coffee. If I pray for you to get a cup of coffee, you are no more likely to get it than if I don't. If I send money, a victim of a Tsunami may get some relief. If I pray for them, they're no better off than if I don't.

They both have the exact same effect on the outside world. I'm looking for any credible evidence. NO, it's not. We now have several studies, and all the ones whose methodology wasn't completely fraudulent came to the same conclusion: no effect. None. Zip. Bupkus. That's the degree to which prayer works, in the sense of affecting anything outside the person prayed for.

Thanks for honorable mention Auto..... See I only speak good of you, I even mentioned you on a thread a while back about how I think you always start good threads.....Now come on be fair and give me a break also....Can't we enjoy a little humor together?

 

[Wandered Off]

Charity demonstrated in this thread when she prayed to be annoying.

If someone prays for you against your will, would that be considered spiritual harassment?

 

[Charity]

If someone prays for you against your will, would that be considered spiritual harassment?

Well I have to swing with the spiritual harassment....guilty..

 

[Sui]

No, they are two different things entirely, as Charity demonstrated in this thread when she prayed to be annoying. One does something; the other does not.

So, prayer isn't kind? To you it does nothing, but to the person praying it feels like they're helping you. Now, if that person has the ability to help you, then opts to pray without physically doing a thing, then I'd agree with you...that isn't kind at all. However if it's the other way around then I see no issue in praying. But clearly we're doing nothing but going in a circle here.

No, it doesn't. That's my point. Actions do something; prayer does nothing. If I give you a ride, you get somewhere. If I pray for you to get there; it has no effect. If I give you a cup of coffee, you get a cup of coffee. If I pray for you to get a cup of coffee, you are no more likely to get it than if I don't. If I send money, a victim of a Tsunami may get some relief. If I pray for them, they're no better off than if I don't.

As I've said, prayers are not instantaneous. If I pray for a cup of coffee, I highly doubt it's going to be answered due to the fact that I don't need it and that I have perfectly enough capability to get one on my own. If you pray for me to get somewhere, your words of prayer themselves are not going to turn into a magic carpet and transport me there. But perhaps the prayer comes in the form of someone offering me a ride...those moments when it's like someone read our minds? Sometimes they're just too good to be true. Although I expect my words to be passed off as coincidence or good luck or something, but that's cool.

They both have the exact same effect on the outside world. I'm looking for any credible evidence. NO, it's not. We now have several studies, and all the ones whose methodology wasn't completely fraudulent came to the same conclusion: no effect. None. Zip. Bupkus. That's the degree to which prayer works, in the sense of affecting anything outside the person prayed for.

I view God as immeasurable, therefore I doubt any science or research will ever have the complete picture. Although here are some successful numbers:

Muslim Gateway: Article

 

[Autodidact]

So, prayer isn't kind?

Its intention may be kind, but its effect is in fact neutral. And sometimes its intention is cruel.

To you it does nothing, but to the person praying it feels like they're helping you.

It may feel like that, but it isn't. I think it's always better for people to know and act on the truth, for our actions to be based in reality.

Now, if that person has the ability to help you, then opts to pray without physically doing a thing, then I'd agree with you...that isn't kind at all.

Exactly. Prayer, by itself, is not kind at all.

However if it's the other way around then I see no issue in praying. But clearly we're doing nothing but going in a circle here.

Well, it's no harm either. It's pointless.

As I've said, prayers are not instantaneous.

It's not a time issue. They're not instantaneous, and they're not long term, either. They're just plain ineffective.

If I pray for a cup of coffee, I highly doubt it's going to be answered due to the fact that I don't need it and that I have perfectly enough capability to get one on my own.

Or maybe due to the fact that prayer doesn't work.

If you pray for me to get somewhere, your words of prayer themselves are not going to turn into a magic carpet and transport me there. But perhaps the prayer comes in the form of someone offering me a ride...those moments when it's like someone read our minds? Sometimes they're just too good to be true. Although I expect my words to be passed off as coincidence or good luck or something, but that's cool.

Or perhaps someone would offer you a ride, regardless of the prayer. Any idea how we could figure that out?

It turns out that the ride gets offered at the exact same rate, with or without the prayer. The effect of prayer is the same as random chance, in other words, none at all. I'm no more likely to get a ride if you pray for me than if you don't. I am much more likely to get one if you just get in your car and pick me up.

I view God as immeasurable, therefore I doubt any science or research will ever have the complete picture. Although here are some successful numbers:

Muslim Gateway: Article

Immeasurable = nonexistent. Invisible looks just like nonexistent.

 

[logician]

"Its intention may be kind, but its effect is in fact neutral. And sometimes its intention is cruel. "

Agreed, prayer really is nothing more than one person's attempt to use a greater power for their own purposes, which by definition could be anything from benign to malignant. HItler praying for victory in WWII would be an example of malignant intent.

 

[DallasApple]

I believe prayer works by bringing emotioanl comfort to the one praying..And if you have requested prayer knowing you are beign prayed for also can bring emmense comfort to someone.

Prayer is a dialouge between you and God..Believing you have been heard is an awesome feeling..Prayer can also be a realease or a vent..I know many people that have yelled and screamed at God..Because they are mad..I think that release as well is helpful.....

But God is not a menu that you order off of..

The danger is crossing the line and believing that your prayer was not "answered" because you have too little faith..I saw a program about this oddly last night..A doctor encourages prayer..But warns that someone should NEVER take on the guilt or blame that they have not been cured..Or thier loved one has not..And they are somehow responsible because of lack of faith..or not enough prayer...etc..He described that as psycological torture..

Love

Dallas

 

[Sui]

Its intention may be kind, but its effect is in fact neutral. And sometimes its intention is cruel.

Prayer is to be made with sincerely good intentions. Sure, people make them with cruel intentions, I don't doubt that. But what goes around comes around. That's a whole new direction however.

It may feel like that, but it isn't. I think it's always better for people to know and act on the truth, for our actions to be based in reality.

Being logical is important, I agree. My religious mentality does not affect my ability to see and act upon reality, believe it or not.

Exactly. Prayer, by itself, is not kind at all.

Prayer by itself is meant to be thoughtful, reflective. Praying is void if that's all I do, because prayer is based upon sincerity and intention. If I pray for a sick person, but totally ignore my ability to help them, then my prayer meant nothing anyway.

Well, it's no harm either. It's pointless.

Okay.

It's not a time issue. They're not instantaneous, and they're not long term, either. They're just plain ineffective.

No, it isn't a time issue. I don't know when my prayer's going to be answered, or if it ever will be. Though it's personal perspective I suppose.

Or maybe due to the fact that prayer doesn't work.

Again, perspective.

Or perhaps someone would offer you a ride, regardless of the prayer. Any idea how we could figure that out?

Good luck to whoever decides to try.

It turns out that the ride gets offered at the exact same rate, with or without the prayer. The effect of prayer is the same as random chance, in other words, none at all. I'm no more likely to get a ride if you pray for me than if you don't. I am much more likely to get one if you just get in your car and pick me up.

It's as I said...if you were to need a ride, I wouldn't be at home mindlessly praying for you. I'd get in my car in give you one if my intention were there and if I sincerely wanted to help you out.

Immeasurable = nonexistent. Invisible looks just like nonexistent.

Immeasurable = without measure; exceeding ability to be measured. The wind is invisible but we know it's there.