Does prayer work?

[Autodidact]

Are you absolutely sure?

Pretty sure, at least, that's what the research shows. If anyone believes differently, that's what this thread is here to discuss.

 

[Charity]

Pretty sure, at least, that's what the research shows. If anyone believes differently, that's what this thread is here to discuss.

Well I think we can agree even if it just gives peace of mind to someone facing any illness it has accomplished something......Thanks Auto good thread

 

[logician]

I don't particularly like the people who say they'll pray for you if some situation comes up that might induce this suggestion - it's sort of like they're pushing their religious beliefs on you, i.e. what if you don't want anybody to pray for you because you don't believe in prayer?

 

[Charity]

I don't particularly like the people who say they'll pray for you if some situation comes up that might induce this suggestion - it's sort of like they're pushing their religious beliefs on you, i.e. what if you don't want anybody to pray for you because you don't believe in prayer?

Oh Logician, hold still and be quiet, it will only take a few minutes and I promise it won't hurt, I'll even give you a lollipop afterwards.....

 

[logician]

Oh Logician, hold still and be quiet, it will only take a few minutes and I promise it won't hurt, I'll even give you a lollipop afterwards.....

You can always pray for world peace, or for leaders that aren't corrupt, if you need to pray for something.

 

[Ringer]

I don't particularly like the people who say they'll pray for you if some situation comes up that might induce this suggestion - it's sort of like they're pushing their religious beliefs on you, i.e. what if you don't want anybody to pray for you because you don't believe in prayer?

Whether you believe it or not, I'd just be happy that somebody is taking time out of their day and doing what they sincerely believe will bring benefit to you. Christian or atheist, we all need people like that in our lives.

 

[logician]

Whether you believe it or not, I'd just be happy that somebody is taking time out of their day and doing what they sincerely believe will bring benefit to you. Christian or atheist, we all need people like that in our lives.

If I really needed help, I might need a dollar, but I don't need somebody praying for me, because I don't think it does me any good. The praying is really for benefit of the person doing the praying, not the person prayed for in this case.

 

[Charity]

If I really needed help, I might need a dollar, but I don't need somebody praying for me, because I don't think it does me any good. The praying is really for benefit of the person doing the praying, not the person prayed for in this case.

Hey Logician, you know you just may be right, it may not do you any good, but it would make me feel really good to pray for you.........Too late, I've already done it...

 

[Autodidact]

Very cute, Charity--mischievious piety. But seriously, unless you disagree with what I'm saying, what good does it do logician for you to pray for logician?

 

[Charity]

Very cute, Charity--mischievious piety. But seriously, unless you disagree with what I'm saying, what good does it do logician for you to pray for logician?

Actually I don't, I don't think of him one way or another, I'm just a big cat, toying with a mouse.....He gets so riled, it just puts me up to mischief....
Piety a trademark of the believer right? Seriously I do think this was a good thread as I said before and just because I'm a believer doesn't mean that I don't like to joke and have some fun. I don't like mundane, change is good.... Thanks again Auto

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Whether you believe it or not, I'd just be happy that somebody is taking time out of their day and doing what they sincerely believe will bring benefit to you. Christian or atheist, we all need people like that in our lives.

I'm not sure that the message of prayer like that (i.e. "I have the time, inclination and ability to do something to help, but I'll do this completely ineffective thing to satisfy my superstition instead") is entirely positive.

 

[Ringer]

I'm not sure that the message of prayer like that (i.e. "I have the time, inclination and ability to do something to help, but I'll do this completely ineffective thing to satisfy my superstition instead") is entirely positive.

When you meet people who you know are going through struggles in their life and yet you know there is nothing you can do for their situation, what's the harm in telling them you'll pray for them? What's not positive about that? If those who believe that prayer doesn't work, is it any different than if I were to say, "You will be with me in my thoughts."?

This may come as a surprise to some but not everybody thinks of prayer as "ineffective".

 

[Heneni]

Jesus never used his faith to help himself.

Praying for others is asking god for what? To intervene? To change his mind?

No I think praying is asking god to yoke your strength with that of your sister/brother to help them carry whatever burden they are carrying.

For that reason, you need friends with big shoulders. People who can carry the weight with you. We are our brothers keeper.

Now two are better than one. Two peoples strength is better than one.

Hundreds of people can say they are praying for you, but they are standing on the sideline watching you bare the brunt, and watching you carry the load.

There are people who are called to prayer...they have been given the gift of prayer..... They are there to lift you up, yoke themselves with you to carry you through, so that your strength might not fail.

However they can help you with strength and endurance, but the trial, test, problem, is yours. You still need to trust god...

Its like two people standing in the way of an oncoming hurricane...they would yoke together and ground and strenghten their position, but they both have to trust god, that whatever will happen...their lives are in his hands.

A parent who has had a child suffer with illness knows what this feeling is like...they would gladly take the pain and suffering of their child upon themselves, and in actual fact, there is nobody better than your mom and dad to pray for you. Your mom did not only carry you, but she continues to carry you when storms get rough.

Now...if you pray...your friend prays, and above all....god adds his strength to you...you have become a fortress and the wind will blow and the water will crash...but your trust in god will not be shaken. The apostels were always thankful for prayer...and boy did they suffer! But they endured it...because of the strengthening power of our fellow believers.

The prayer of a righteous man makes tremedous power (strenght) availabe.

The other side of the argument is this....


Now having said that...it seems a bit silly to ask people to pray that you will get a mercedes benz.....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When you meet people who you know are going through struggles in their life and yet you know there is nothing you can do for their situation, what's the harm in telling them you'll pray for them? What's not positive about that?

The same thing that's not positive about eating marshmallow fluff to stop feeling hungry: it may immediately help the negative feelings (either of hunger or futility), but doesn't address the root problem.

If those who believe that prayer doesn't work, is it any different than if I were to say, "You will be with me in my thoughts."?

Yes, it is different. Thought can spur action. IMO, by masquerading as an action, prayer stifles other actions that can have real effects.

Personally, if I'm suffering from malnutrition, I want hunger - it will drive me to find real food. If I'm in a seemingly hopeless situation, I don't want to pretend that praying would somehow improve things, and in the process take away the drive that I will have to find an actual solution, or failing that, a way to help stop others from falling into the same predicament.

This may come as a surprise to some but not everybody thinks of prayer as "ineffective".

I realize that. This doesn't make it effective, though.

 

[Ringer]

The same thing that's not positive about eating marshmallow fluff to stop feeling hungry: it may immediately help the negative feelings (either of hunger or futility), but doesn't address the root problem.

I understand this. However, you seem to be suggesting that if I'm going hungry and I believe it prayer, I say a prayer in my shack and assume that food is going to fall on my lap. I don't think prayer works like that and also don't think others do either.

Yes, it is different. Thought can spur action. IMO, by masquerading as an action, prayer stifles other actions that can have real effects.

When I tell Comet, someone I've never met in my life and probably never will that I'm praying for him to find peace in his struggle and that he finds relief from pain, are you telling me that this is ineffective compared to you who tells him that you are in his thoughts? What exactly is your thinking about his knee and situation spurring into action?

Personally, if I'm suffering from malnutrition, I want hunger - it will drive me to find real food. If I'm in a seemingly hopeless situation, I don't want to pretend that praying would somehow improve things, and in the process take away the drive that I will have to find an actual solution, or failing that, a way to help stop others from falling into the same predicament.

Again, I'm not suggesting that you are looking to prayer so that you move a rock and uncover a 7 course meal. As I've stated in other posts, prayer is not about getting what we want. Prayer is communication with God as means of knowing His will in our lives and getting to know him in the same way we communicate with others. It's a process of transformation and outworking of our faith in a God that promises that our needs will be provided. I used to pray asking for everything I could think of that I felt will provide happiness. As I've matured, my prayers are centered around asking God to provide situation in my life that His will can be worked out through my life. Can I necessarily prove that prayer worked in that regard? Probably not to somebody who is skeptical but I also don't think they can prove it didn't. The problem outsiders and many Christians have with prayer is they think of it as a tool to get what we want. The problem is, God get what He wants because ultimately, this is what is better for the person whether we realize it or not.

I can pray everyday for a year for Comet's knee and at the end of this year Comet's knee can be just as bad as it is now or possibly worse. Many will say, "See! I told you prayer doesn't work." However, when I do remember to pray for Comet, I don't necessarily ask that his knee gets better. I ask that Comet finds strength in his struggle and that at the end of his struggle, he becomes a better person than he was before. If that means his knee is healed or the thorn remains in his side a little longer, is not my decision. God's will is going to be carried out regardless. Knowing that, I still find it interesting that Jesus asked his disciples to pray with him while in the garden.

I realize that. This doesn't make it effective, though.

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Maybe it's possible that it's not prayer that doesn't work but the person behind it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I understand this. However, you seem to be suggesting that if I'm going hungry and I believe it prayer, I say a prayer in my shack and assume that food is going to fall on my lap. I don't think prayer works like that and also don't think others do either.

That's not what I was getting at.

Marshmallow fluff may make you feel less hungry, but it won't give you nutrition.

Prayer may make you feel less helpless, but it won't improve your situation.

When I tell Comet, someone I've never met in my life and probably never will that I'm praying for him to find peace in his struggle and that he finds relief from pain, are you telling me that this is ineffective compared to you who tells him that you are in his thoughts?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that prayer will result in zero effect. Thought can result in a range of effects from nothing at all to something significant.

What exactly is your thinking about his knee and situation spurring into action?

Nothing so far. I'm a civil engineer, not a surgeon or physiotherapist with special skills that would help an injured knee. However, I also don't hold any illusions that I am helping, beyond possibly making Comet feel better by knowing that people do care about what he's going through (BTW, Comet, I do hope your knee heals quickly).

Again, I'm not suggesting that you are looking to prayer so that you move a rock and uncover a 7 course meal. As I've stated in other posts, prayer is not about getting what we want. Prayer is communication with God as means of knowing His will in our lives and getting to know him in the same way we communicate with others. It's a process of transformation and outworking of our faith in a God that promises that our needs will be provided. I used to pray asking for everything I could think of that I felt will provide happiness. As I've matured, my prayers are centered around asking God to provide situation in my life that His will can be worked out through my life. Can I necessarily prove that prayer worked in that regard? Probably not to somebody who is skeptical but I also don't think they can prove it didn't. The problem outsiders and many Christians have with prayer is they think of it as a tool to get what we want. The problem is, God get what He wants because ultimately, this is what is better for the person whether we realize it or not.

I do recognize your distinction between prayer as a means to find God's will and asking God for the things you want... but I think my objection still stands in either case: one form of prayer provides the illusion of action, the other helps the believer accept the things that happen; in both cases, real action is stifled.

I can pray everyday for a year for Comet's knee and at the end of this year Comet's knee can be just as bad as it is now or possibly worse. Many will say, "See! I told you prayer doesn't work." However, when I do remember to pray for Comet, I don't necessarily ask that his knee gets better. I ask that Comet finds strength in his struggle and that at the end of his struggle, he becomes a better person than he was before. If that means his knee is healed or the thorn remains in his side a little longer, is not my decision. God's will is going to be carried out regardless.

And there's the difference: I don't believe any good and perfect God is going to make things right in the world. If I want things to be better, it's up to me. Many things are beyond my abilities as an individual, limited person, but this doesn't mean I shouldn't try to leave a good mark on the world.

If prayer is ineffective, then the things that believers trust to God to make right are things that won't be made right. And that's the tragedy I see in prayer.

 

[Autodidact]

I understand this. However, you seem to be suggesting that if I'm going hungry and I believe it prayer, I say a prayer in my shack and assume that food is going to fall on my lap. I don't think prayer works like that and also don't think others do either.

No, in fact it doesn't work like that or any other way. It doesn't work.

When I tell Comet, someone I've never met in my life and probably never will that I'm praying for him to find peace in his struggle and that he finds relief from pain, are you telling me that this is ineffective compared to you who tells him that you are in his thoughts?

It's equally effective.

What exactly is your thinking about his knee and situation spurring into action?

It may offer some comfort. It may also do some good, since I may manage to think of something that will help.

Again, I'm not suggesting that you are looking to prayer so that you move a rock and uncover a 7 course meal. As I've stated in other posts, prayer is not about getting what we want. Prayer is communication with God as means of knowing His will in our lives and getting to know him in the same way we communicate with others. It's a process of transformation and outworking of our faith in a God that promises that our needs will be provided. I used to pray asking for everything I could think of that I felt will provide happiness. As I've matured, my prayers are centered around asking God to provide situation in my life that His will can be worked out through my life. Can I necessarily prove that prayer worked in that regard? Probably not to somebody who is skeptical but I also don't think they can prove it didn't. The problem outsiders and many Christians have with prayer is they think of it as a tool to get what we want. The problem is, God get what He wants because ultimately, this is what is better for the person whether we realize it or not.

O.K., in that case, why pray for anything other than knowing God and His will? Why, for example, pray for me?

I can pray everyday for a year for Comet's knee and at the end of this year Comet's knee can be just as bad as it is now or possibly worse.

And in fact it will.

Many will say, "See! I told you prayer doesn't work." However, when I do remember to pray for Comet, I don't necessarily ask that his knee gets better.

Which is a good thing since it would be completely ineffective.

I ask that Comet finds strength in his struggle and that at the end of his struggle, he becomes a better person than he was before

He may or may not, but not because of your prayer, which also will not help with that

. If that means his knee is healed or the thorn remains in his side a little longer, is not my decision. God's will is going to be carried out regardless.

By wild coincidence, God's will just happens to coincide with random occurrence. "God's will" is just another way of saying, "whatever was going to happen anyway."

Knowing that, I still find it interesting that Jesus asked his disciples to pray with him while in the garden.

I don't, unless you find dull fiction interesting.

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Effective at what exactly?

Maybe it's possible that it's not prayer that doesn't work but the person behind it?

Why waste time praying then? Why not go out and do something helpful?

 

[Ringer]

No, in fact it doesn't work like that or any other way. It doesn't work.

I wish I could be so certain

It's equally effective. It may offer some comfort. It may also do some good, since I may manage to think of something that will help.

Or, equally ineffective which is what you seem to be saying. Are you suggesting that when I pray I also can't manage to think of something that will help? Did God not give me an intellect as well to help myself or others?

O.K., in that case, why pray for anything other than knowing God and His will? Why, for example, pray for me?

I'd pray for you because I feel that there is biblical precidence for intercessory prayer.

And in fact it will. Which is a good thing since it would be completely ineffective. He may or may not, but not because of your prayer, which also will not help with that By wild coincidence, God's will just happens to coincide with random occurrence. "God's will" is just another way of saying, "whatever was going to happen anyway." I don't, unless you find dull fiction interesting.

How can you be so sure?

Effective at what exactly?

Effective at prayer was meant to accomplish. I thought those have been covered enough in prior posts?

Why waste time praying then? Why not go out and do something helpful?

Prayer is helpful and important for me. Whether you think it's ineffective or not has no relevance to me. If I felt that way I probably wouldn't pray. There's also many instances in the Bible that Christians are called to pray. I don't mean to sound insulting but I believe I will continue to follow Jesus' command in this area of my life instead of somebody that obviously (or so it seems) has never personally experienced this power in their life. Besides the obviously answer that I assume you will give me, how do you expect me to know God if you don't pray?

 

[Sui]

Just because someone prays for something doesn't mean it isn't translated into action too. For example, taking care of someone. If I do my utmost best to make them comfortable and try to help them recover, what's some prayer going to hurt. Even a few minutes of kindness is never a waste of time.

As for the effectiveness, many prayers don't work outwardly, or even at all (for the time being). That doesn't make them pointless. Taking care of a person may not always outwardly work either. Does that make our kind intentions and thoughtful actions toward the person pointless too? Of course not. Prayers aren't extravagant displays of asking for a new car and watching it appear out of thin air in the driveway. Perhaps a prayer simply sparks inspiration, hope, or contentment in even just one person. Maybe that wouldn't change your world, but it sure could very well change theirs.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Jesus never used his faith to help himself.

Did Jesus ever need help with anything?

I wonder how you would apply this - it is a most curious statement.

I wonder what you think of the consistent teaching from Jesus to folks:

"Your faith has healed you."

EDIT: This kind of mentality seems completely opposite of all the teachings concerning prayer in the NT.

They are all for our benefit.