Does religion cause problems or supress it to the world?

[Deathbydefault]

Can you articulate some of the cons...perhaps I might get a better understanding of your feelings of betrayal. I am circumcised as well, and I don't have any of the ill feelings toward my parents as you do.

I don't like my parents because they are too religious, I see them as flesh conduits for their fundamentalism.
If I wasn't biologically related to them, I wouldn't even call them my parents.
Takes too long to explain, and it doesn't really pertain to our discussion.

As far as the cons go, they are fairly easy to look up, even sights that are pro circumcision will still list that it is a disease risk and whatnot.

In fact I said to my wife, that I'm glad that I didn't have any boys, because I would have had to cross that bridge myself...But she said to me, don't worry, if you had a son, he would be circumcised whether you wanted it or not. She said its a matter of hygiene, and she would not allow any son of hers into the world without being circumcised. So I guess all is good here on the home front. Whats the trouble in yours?

Of course your wife could be wrong, nurses and doctors aren't always right.
She is right that it is hygienic, or I agree with that in any case, but it also puts the child in unnecessary risk.

Route A gets you to your destination faster, but also has the potential to kill you.
Route B Gets you to your destination not too much slower, but is perfectly safe.
Which route do you chose?

Circumcision has the potential to improve hygiene, but may put a baby at risk for disease and other things.
No circumcision might mean slightly worse hygiene, but doesn't introduce extra risks to the baby.
Will you circumcise your child?

 

[Kirran]

I don't like my parents because they are too religious, I see them as flesh conduits for their fundamentalism.
If I wasn't biologically related to them, I wouldn't even call them my parents.
Takes too long to explain, and it doesn't really pertain to our discussion.

Among many other cons that my father resent about this having been inflicted upon him is the substantial reduction in penile sensitivity which is produced. Sex isn't as enjoyable because the nerves on the glans are damaged due to the exposure of circumcision.

Religion vs. the followers or a religion is a factor in forming view and opinion here indeed.

For someone who doesn't follow a particular religion, it does not exist separate from its followers. There is no Islam separate to Muslims from my perspective. There is no Hinduism divorced from Hindus. Islam is what we see Muslims believing and practicing, and Hinduism is what we see Hindus believing and practicing.

 

[viole]

Hello guys.

What do you think?

Let's take same statistics first. According to Wikipedia the non-religious are no more than 17% of Earth's human populace (so Martians are not included). At least Christians + Muslims make ~53%. Does that imply anything?

Yes, it implies that you added up two mutually contradicting versions of God in order to reach the majority.

But if you put Abrahamic religions under the same taxonomy, then I suggest to include the Jews, too.
You will probably get a couple of percents more.

What about the evolution of humanity? Did religion help or screw things up for it?

There is not such a thing as screwing evolution up. Since we are not on the verge of extinction (quite the contrary), I cannot imagine anything that screwed things up, even if that concept was applicable to blind and atheological biologic mechanisms.

However, I believe that religiosity IS an evolutionary trait.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kirran]

There is not such a thing as screwing evolution up. Since we are not on the verge of extinction (quite the contrary), I cannot imagine anything that screwed things up, even if that concept was applicable to blind and atheological biologic mechanisms.

I think he means evolution more in the sense of societal progression than in the biological sense.

 

[Sonofason]

I don't like my parents because they are too religious, I see them as flesh conduits for their fundamentalism.
If I wasn't biologically related to them, I wouldn't even call them my parents.
Takes too long to explain, and it doesn't really pertain to our discussion.

As far as the cons go, they are fairly easy to look up, even sights that are pro circumcision will still list that it is a disease risk and whatnot.



Of course your wife could be wrong, nurses and doctors aren't always right.
She is right that it is hygienic, or I agree with that in any case, but it also puts the child in unnecessary risk.

Route A gets you to your destination faster, but also has the potential to kill you.
Route B Gets you to your destination not too much slower, but is perfectly safe.
Which route do you chose?

Circumcision has the potential to improve hygiene, but may put a baby at risk for disease and other things.
No circumcision might mean slightly worse hygiene, but doesn't introduce extra risks to the baby.
Will you circumcise your child?

No, circumcision does improve hygiene. And yes, it may put a baby at risk for the duration of its healing. It is a minor surgery, and the benefit absolutely outweighs the risks.
What are the risk factors for penile cancer?

Benefits of Circumcision Outweigh Risks, Pediatric Group Says

I'm not gonna go into it all, because you can do your own research. Your parents did the right thing. Your parents love you. And you need to make amends with them because family is, I swear to God, the most important thing that you have.

 

[Kirran]

No, circumcision does improve hygiene. And yes, it may put a baby at risk for the duration of its healing. It is a minor surgery, and the benefit absolutely outweighs the risks.
What are the risk factors for penile cancer?

Benefits of Circumcision Outweigh Risks, Pediatric Group Says

I'm not gonna go into it all, because you can do your own research. Your parents did the right thing. Your parents love you. And you need to make amends with them because family is, I swear to God, the most important thing that you have.

Why would my father, who was circumcised, feel that it was a mutilation he'd never inflict upon his own child?

 

[Deathbydefault]

I'm not gonna go into it all, because you can do your own research. Your parents did the right thing. Your parents love you. And you need to make amends with them because family is, I swear to God, the most important thing that you have.

You don't know my parents, you would not say this if you did.
I'm not some edgy teenager with imaginary family issues that I myself am the cause of.
They hate me, the love of a parent towards their child does not exist between us in any way at all.

They did what they thought their religion wanted them to do, that includes the "accidental" attempts to kill me.
I'll make amends with their gravestones, and hope that event can happen sooner rather than later.

Onto your link, the title mislead the point of the article.
Here: Circumcision: What Does Science Say?
I feel it is a better link, especially for discussion.

 

[Shad]

Well, my wife works in a hospital, and she claims that from her experience, those who are circumcised have the advantage of better hygiene.

This was true for people that have poor or no standard of hygiene. The rest of your comment establishes this reason.

 

[Sonofason]

Why would my father, who was circumcised, feel that it was a mutilation he'd never inflict upon his own child?

Because he's been brainwashed into thinking there are no direct benefits, like you?

 

[Kirran]

Because he's been brainwashed into thinking there are no direct benefits, like you?

Who would have brainwashed him? He's the one it was done to. He's very aware of how it has impacted him.

And hey, the vast majority of male humans who've ever lived have got by with a foreskin. God produced us with a foreskin, we evolved with a foreskin. They have genuine function.

 

[Sonofason]

This was true for people that have poor or no standard of hygiene. The rest of your comment establishes this reason.

It is still true today, and the website I posted is a current one which claims that ideas are changing back in the medical field. Circumcised children are less prone to penile cancer and many many bacterial infections. It's just a fact. And Moses knew it thousands of years ago.

 

[Shad]

What about the evolution of humanity? Did religion help or screw things up for it?

Religion itself is not a monolithic idea nor institution. Different religions, sects, denominations, etc have contributed to progression and/or regression of a society at different times. The same "group" that at one time was progressive became regressive or vice-verse. For example Protestantism when it emerged during the Tudor era in England set the standards of living and education back centuries as it replaced, destroyed and/or abandoned the previous Catholic institutions. So in this case Catholicism was progressive in comparison to Protestantism which was regressive. Yet during the 19th century one Pope opposed democracy and modernization for the sake of the position and the power in the Papal States. This was seen as regressive at the time while Protestantism was seen as progressive.

The human element of religions can not be removed yet it is the source of progress and/or regression as humans are the ones to implement changes to a society. Humans evaluate if an external idea is compatible with their view of religion. As the people in this position change different view points can be put forward so the idea of compatibility changes. For example Catholicism rejecting evolution only later to accept it.

Religion has been a major part of human society long before recorded history. I do not think we can honestly take a position that overall it is one of the other; pro or con. We should acknowledge like other social constructs it has been abused, misused and used for many purposes.

 

[Shad]

It is still true today, and the website I posted is a current one which claims that ideas are changing back in the medical field. Circumcised children are less prone to penile cancer and many many bacterial infections. It's just a fact. And Moses knew it thousands of years ago.

You have no evidence that Moses' thought the purpose was to eliminate any such issues you have brought up nor that such an idea was not based on observations. Besides the practice predates Moses by 10 centuries in Egypt.

 

[Sonofason]

You have no evidence that Moses' thought the purpose was to eliminate any such issues you have brought up nor that such an idea was not based on observations. Besides the practice predates Moses by 10 centuries in Egypt.

I don't need evidence that Moses thought the purpose was to eliminate scum from developing under his foreskin. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. But it was actually God that told Moses to do it.

I don't think it matters who the first person was to remove the scum from under their foreskin. I just thank God it was done for me.

 

[Sonofason]

Who would have brainwashed him? He's the one it was done to. He's very aware of how it has impacted him.

And hey, the vast majority of male humans who've ever lived have got by with a foreskin. God produced us with a foreskin, we evolved with a foreskin. They have genuine function.

Whatever...if you want to hold a grudge, hold your grudge. I'm only suggesting it's not right that you do that. Do what you want.

 

[Kirran]

Whatever...if you want to hold a grudge, hold your grudge. I'm only suggesting it's not right that you do that. Do what you want.

There aren't any grudges involved, I never said there were!

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

And what are your objections to this having been done to you, other than the fact that you were not asked? Are you offended that your parents let you live, as you were not consulted about that either? It was IMO done for your benefit. The fact that you do not see that is not a fault of your parents.

Do you feel the same way about gender assignment? I'm not just talking about babies with ambiguous genitalia, but the "whoopsies" that happen sometimes when snip-snip doesn't work out so well.

Mom and Dad: Well, honey, you started out as Robert, but Dr Edward Scissorhands screwed up, so ... hello, Roberta!

She also tells me that young children are less likely to maintain good hygiene, and so circumcision does seem to have benefits, whether or not you agree.

Should people get boobs cut off because there can be skin breakdown under them? Should I get my abdominal fat chopped off because of skin breakdown possibilities in the skin folds? Do you wear glasses? Maybe switch to contacts and lop off your ears, because skin breakdown can occur behind them as well.

Cutting things off is not a good response for the laziness of parents and healthcare professionals in teaching hygiene.

Mom and Dad: Oh well, Roberta just won't wash her hands, guess what's coming off next ...

 

[roger1440]

Hello guys.

What do you think?

Let's take same statistics first. According to Wikipedia the non-religious are no more than 17% of Earth's human populace (so Martians are not included). At least Christians + Muslims make ~53%. Does that imply anything? I'm putting this just for the information here. I'm not going to participate for now.

What about the evolution of humanity? Did religion help or screw things up for it?

Looking forward to knowing your opinions and views in this. Thank you.

References:
List of religious populations - Wikipedia

It’s a matter of opinion. It’s always the other guys who are causing the problems. We are trying to fix them.

 

[Sonofason]

Do you feel the same way about gender assignment? I'm not just talking about babies with ambiguous genitalia, but the "whoopsies" that happen sometimes when snip-snip doesn't work out so well.

Mom and Dad: Well, honey, you started out as Robert, but Dr Edward Scissorhands screwed up, so ... hello, Roberta!


Should people get boobs cut off because there can be skin breakdown under them? Should I get my abdominal fat chopped off because of skin breakdown possibilities in the skin folds? Do you wear glasses? Maybe switch to contacts and lop off your ears, because skin breakdown can occur behind them as well.

Cutting things off is not a good response for the laziness of parents and healthcare professionals in teaching hygiene.

Mom and Dad: Oh well, Roberta just won't wash her hands, guess what's coming off next ...

I guy here said, along with other reasons that he wouldn't state that he pretty much hates his parents for circumcising him. If it's okay for a mother to murder her child before its even born, It's also okay for her to have infant baby boy circumcised. At least circumcising boys will lead to them having a healthier life, where as murdering unborn children tends to have the opposite effect. While I have my own personal opinion on some of those matters, which I would happily share with people I love, I pretty much don't care what people do to their own bodies. And no, I don't love anyone I don't know.

 

[Shad]

I don't need evidence that Moses thought the purpose was to eliminate scum from developing under his foreskin.

Yes you do as you made the claim that Moses did it for health reasons and had knowledge of these reasons.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

Speculation of a fictional person having medical knowledge not communicated in a text supposedly written by him. You are right it doesn't take a genius to make stuff up as children do it all the time.

But it was actually God that told Moses to do it.

Irrelevant as this does not establish the claim you made regarding medical practices. All you have done is support speculation with more speculation.

I don't think it matters who the first person was to remove the scum from under their foreskin. I just thank God it was done for me.

Actually it does matter as this undermines your claim as being original while also establishing the practice existed in the same region. A practice which existed in other cultures long before Moses. More so this establishes that non-prophets can figure out benefits for the practice while Moses apparently is so dumb he needs God to tell him about a practice found in the environment he was raised in, ie Egypt.