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Does religion impair vital critical thinking skills?

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
And how does that prove anything? Come on, you're being ridiculous.

You did not ask for proof, you asked for evidence.


That evidence could be invalidated by finding as little as a single original sentence written in Qur'anic Arabic. So far no one has ever done so.

That may not be proof it was dictated by Allaah(swt), but it is evidence it was not written by a human. In other words evidence it was produced by Allaah(swt) as it is stated in the Qur'an.

10:37 (Picktall) And this quran is not such as could ever be invented in despite of Allah; but it is a confirmation of that which was before it and an exposition of that which is decreed for mankind-- Therein is no doubt--from the Lord of the Worlds.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
You did not ask for proof, you asked for evidence.

But it's not evidence that actually points to the factual existence of a deity. It's something you don't understand and therefore, you're going to arbitrarily assign it to a deity that you find emotionally comforting. What you've described is a curiosity, not actually evidence of what you claim is true.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
A non-sequitur fallacy.
Another word for “critical thinking” is “logical thinking.” This is a high and holy thing, in fact a very Christian thing because the ultimate foundation of logic is the Logos, the eternal Mind or Reason or Inner Word of God, which John’s Gospel identifies as the pre-incarnate Christ. The human art and science of logic is the instrument that teaches us to rightly order and structure our thoughts, as a means to the end of thought, which is truth.
Dogma in this sense is not the enemy of truth, but you have made it so.

Actually, the literalists throw themselves under the bus. It's easy to blame religion and not the members who fail to live by it. Lumping Christianity with Islam in grouping bad behaviors of both is hasty generalizing, a logical fallacy.

Then you should show evidence of your dogma. You should show critical thinking when presented with evidence that shows monogamy and chastity programs to be superior to UN sponsored contraception programs (which demonstrably show an overall increase in divorce, death and disease.) There is a reason the black race is targeted, but I digress. You keep asserting your private dogmas without evidence, and they are loaded with fallacies, ambiguities and falsehoods.

This statement rests on the
overpopulation fallacy. Google "myth of overpopulation". there are millions of sites. Help yourself.

kepha,

With respect, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can find no common ground from which to respond to this set of arguments. I am well and truly gobsmacked :)
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Just to verify, I don't think I've ever claimed that complex systems are driven by single causal forces. But I do claim that religious doctrine is often the sole common factor tying together beliefs and behaviors across many generations, locales, and cultures.

Yes; not inherently a bad thing(helps keep peace), but not inherently good, either (the stuff you mentioned).

Also, for thousands of years we've heard the religious declare that they do what they do "in the name of" their religion. Is it soft bigotry on our parts to disbelieve them?

No, but it's soft bigotry to equate all religion under that umbrella. Much of what you describe is actually quite contemporary, a lot of it due to relatively recent (read: past few centuries) socio-political upheaval that threatened the power of religious institutions like the Catholic Church.

Besides, much of what was done "in the name of their religion" was the basis for modern sciences. Humanity's collective knowledge simply wouldn't be anywhere near as vast as it is now, if it weren't for monks and scholars trying to better understand their God and God's creation.

In fact, you owe your well-deserved love for critical thinking directly to the Catholic Church.

Again, we hear from Christians that stem cell research goes against their faith. Who am I to tell them that they are misinterpreting their own faith?

Well, you can question where they may have gotten that from their faith. Which passage in the Biblical canon, for instance. You might also question how many Christians even have this interpretation. Such questioning is part and partial to critical thinking, and religious faith can be challenged on its own turf even by non-believers.

After all, I hear from plenty of Christians that stem-cell research is perfectly fine. Clearly the interpretation you cite is not universal by a long shot.

Christianity is not a microcosm for all religion everywhere, anyway. (And neither is Islam; nor Christianity/Islam together). Christianity is simply the one with the most visible cultural influence in the West right now, and Islamic countries (from what little I've admittedly seen) are going through a major crisis right now, similar to what happened in Europe after the Protestant Reformation.

The Zeigarnik effect is pretty google-able. But to summarize, back in the 1920s (I think), Zeigarnik did studies that indicated that incomplete activities are better remembered than complete ones. E.g. waiters remembered customer's orders until they were fulfilled. In other words, the brain puts effort into keeping current those things that are unresolved.

More recently cognitive scientists have determined that most (if not all) cognitive processes draw from the same store of glucose in the brain. So, for example, something as seemingly innocuous as "having a little willpower" drains brain glucose.

Thanks. I mostly asked for entirely personal reasons that have nothing to do with religion.

My claim puts those two findings together: Usually if you have a religious worldview, you have to constantly filter what the world presents you through this worldview. When presented with a situation, you must ask yourself "what does the scripture say about this, if anything?". This filtering can never be resolved, it is ongoing.

Similarly, if you have a critical thinking worldview, you will filter what the world presents to you. You might ask yourself "Is this new thing consistent with what I've learned about how the world works?". This is also an ongoing process.

If you are a religious person who ALSO employs critical thinking, you are supporting two sets of filters (a cognitive drain), AND you must resolve those situations in which the two worldviews conflict (a very expensive cognitive operation.)

So the Christian Parkinson's disease researcher is constrained from using stem cell research based on dogma, while simultaneously her critical thinking functions argue that stem research could further her work.

This might seem like an unusual case in the West, although we see millions of Christian parents spending lots of cognitive resources fighting against science curricula. Now zoom over to Pakistan or Afghanistan. These folks are aware of the outside world and most of them probably want a better life for their families. But again, their dogma - which is in conflict with modernity - constrains, confuses and depletes them cognitively.

How about a Christian healthcare worker in AIDS-torn Africa? She knows scientifically that condoms would reduce the spread of the disease, but her pope tells her that condoms are counter to her dogma.

One might argue that such cognitive drains are apart of normal life, and of course such drains are inevitable. But the reality is that cognitive resources are sparse and easily depleted. Extra cognitive load can make the difference between learning a complex new idea and being confused. The best teachers understand the importance of this idea and do everything they can in their teaching to reduce cognitive drains. (Google "intrinsic cognitive load" and "extrinsic cognitive load".)

Ah, I believe you're specifically talking about the negative effects of cognitive dissonance.

The thing is, we all basically have no choice but to filter what the world presents to us based on our worldviews, whether that be one of cautious questioning or preconceived notions.

In an earlier post I made this claim, though I didn't word it exactly like that. It's based on a realization that I recently had, which is largely based on my experience (and is unstudied, so I would absolutely be most disappointed if you, at least, believed this just because I said it ^_^): there are two basic types of reality: subjective reality and objective reality. All humans, and likely all living organisms capable of experience, can only experience subjective reality; truly experiencing objective reality is beyond our ultimate grasp, no matter how far we reach. This is because of the nature of what objective reality is (or rather, how it can be expressed with the vocabulary I possess): a bunch of values interacting. That's not how we can experience the world. All we have is our subjective experience, because by our individual perceptions, we are the subject, not the object. Everything that we label as "reality" is ultimately part of subjective reality.

Now, that said, there are worldviews that are closer to objective reality than others. Say two people perceive a rock. One person perceives a rock as a lifeless piece of hard material, while the other perceives it as breathing and talking (quite literally, by the way; feels the breath on skin and hears the words audibly). Both of these are subjective experiences, very real to both, but the one can be independently verified not only by other people but also by non-human instrumentation, while the other cannot be. It is reasonable to conclude, therefore, that the former's subjective reality is closer to objective reality than the latter's.

However, that doesn't mean the presence of subjective reality is in conflict with known objective reality. If I walk off a cliff, I will fall and most likely die. While factual (beyond any reasonable doubt), this still qualifies as subjective reality, due both to the nature of what's going on, and the language we use to express it. It's equally valid to describe this phenomenon, not as falling, but as being pulled to the Earth's core. Or flying in space through a material consisting mostly of nitrogen, with a trajectory influenced by a massive body that is in very close proximity. Even the very act of hitting the ground is subjective; on the atomic level, nothing is actually touching, after all; it's mostly just empty space. All of these are in agreement with objective reality, but still different based on the subject that's describing it. Each wording also comes with different connotations of where the subject is in relation to the phenomenon, either physically, cognitively, emotionally, or some combination of these.

What all this has to do with religion is dependent on the religion in question, and how it perceives the divine (assuming its presence). Literalistic readings of a given religion's Lore will generally have you believe in supernatural entities and phenomenon as if they were as real, and objectively verifiable and measurable, as trees, and often used as an explanation for some otherwise unexplained phenomenon. On the other hand, there's another approach that I don't think a lot of atheists are aware of, and that is the interpretive conception of the divine. The Gods are not the cause or reason for a given phenomenon that currently lacks explanation, but a way to look at the phenomenon. The Modern English word Thunder derives from the Old English Thunor, which is both the name of the same phenomenon, as well as the God associated with it. In other words, Thor isn't the God of Thunder; Thor is Thunder. Or at the very least, the presence of a storm indicates the presence of the associated divinity (Thor is also a fertility God), even if the divinity didn't cause the storm.

Nothing in my religion calls for me to disregard anything the scientific consensus agrees upon, nor is there anything in my religion that disagrees with it directly. I'm a theist, but I don't use the Gods to explain away the stuff that "science can't explain". If any aspect of my religion turns out to go against something the scientific consensus agrees upon in the future, I'm trusting that consensus first.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
kepha,

With respect, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can find no common ground from which to respond to this set of arguments. I am well and truly gobsmacked :)

That's typical. When they find themselves completely and totally lacking in a desirable characteristic, they simply redefine the characteristic so they can lay claim to it, without having the slightest clue what the characteristic actually means in the first place. It's called spin.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Actually only 30% interpret the bible literally since 2011, And while they believe God created the earth, sun, animals etc in these past 10,000 years only 18% actually believe the earth itself is less than 10,000 years old...

Sounds about right ..

..and of course, the nature of time is not as we perceive it to be .. according to many famous scientists AND the religious scholars :)

eg. a day in the creation is about a 1000 years of our 'time measurement'
 

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
But it's not evidence that actually points to the factual existence of a deity. It's something you don't understand and therefore, you're going to arbitrarily assign it to a deity that you find emotionally comforting. What you've described is a curiosity, not actually evidence of what you claim is true.


Oddly in my opinion if one could find physical proof of the existence of Allaah(swt) it would prove he is not the creator as we do not believe the creator enters the physical realm he created. Although he is all knowing as to what happens in it.

As to what you would find to be factual proof, I doubt if any exists. We can only consider the probability based upon non-physical evidence. Just my opinion (astagfirullah) and not based upon any teachings.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Oddly in my opinion if one could find physical proof of the existence of Allaah(swt) it would prove he is not the creator as we do not believe the creator enters the physical realm he created. Although he is all knowing as to what happens in it.

As to what you would find to be factual proof, I doubt if any exists. We can only consider the probability based upon non-physical evidence. Just my opinion (astagfirullah) and not based upon any teachings.

Yet without such evidence, or some objective evidence, you have no way of demonstrating that the deity that you believe in actually exists. You just have wishful thinking and blind faith and that's simply not impressive. You've defined your god out of the possibility of being demonstrably true so you don't have to face the possibility of it being disproven. Yet without having some means of showing that what you believe in actually exists, you're left without any way to show anyone who doesn't believe blindly and irrationally that you've got anything worth believing in.

That's the biggest problem with such claims, they are based on nothing more than "because I said so", while you reject all the other gods that also only have "because I said so" to support them. Personally, I reject all of it because all you've got is "because I said so" and that's simply not enough to take any of them seriously.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Riverwolf,

+1 on all of this except a quibble here:

Well, you can question where they may have gotten that from their faith. Which passage in the Biblical canon, for instance. You might also question how many Christians even have this interpretation. Such questioning is part and partial to critical thinking, and religious faith can be challenged on its own turf even by non-believers.

I have tried this approach many times and never achieved anything near a satisfactory outcome. Do you have some special mojo?

Finally, your stance sounds very much like the Dalai Lama's, not bad company.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
[QUOTE="icehorse, post: 4043499, member: 52014I have tried this approach many times and never achieved anything near a satisfactory outcome. Do you have some special mojo?[/QUOTE]
American I presume? Christianity is in a terrible state here, I'm afraid. Most churches actively discourage independent study, making 'believing the pastor' into a new dogma. It's quite tragic.

For the most part, though, it doesn't take special mojo. You just have to get a feel for people/ congregations before you start in. It's not difficult to tell the ones who are taught to "Cherish Your Doubt" from those whose faith is being twisted to the church instead of God.
 

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
Yet without such evidence, or some objective evidence, you have no way of demonstrating that the deity that you believe in actually exists. You just have wishful thinking and blind faith and that's simply not impressive. You've defined your god out of the possibility of being demonstrably true so you don't have to face the possibility of it being disproven. Yet without having some means of showing that what you believe in actually exists, you're left without any way to show anyone who doesn't believe blindly and irrationally that you've got anything worth believing in.

That's the biggest problem with such claims, they are based on nothing more than "because I said so", while you reject all the other gods that also only have "because I said so" to support them. Personally, I reject all of it because all you've got is "because I said so" and that's simply not enough to take any of them seriously.

As I have no desire to proselytize my beliefs I feel no need to validate them to others. I believe because of a personal experience and not the input or teachings of others.

With that said I will concede I have no proof for my beliefs.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
As I have no desire to proselytize my beliefs I feel no need to validate them to others. I believe because of a personal experience and not the input or teachings of others.

With that said I will concede I have no proof for my beliefs.

Which is all well and good but some of us have a need for something more than undefined and unjustified personal experiences for which we have no evidence came from the cause our emotions might desire them to have come from.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Obviously there was a time when religion served a valuable survival purpose, else it would have been left by the wayside long ago. Humans have outpaced their need for religion but not, unfortunately, their desire for it. This is not that different from the Management 101 concept that stress is the result of having responsibility for something without any authority over it. Religion appears to me to create more stress and to do more damage than it is worth. I suspect that is because it has lost the outlets that it was genetically programed for and now rather than contributing to overall fitness results in contradictory outcomes.
What purpose would that be?
 

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
Which is all well and good but some of us have a need for something more than undefined and unjustified personal experiences for which we have no evidence came from the cause our emotions might desire them to have come from.

If I had any desire or need to prove to you God(swt) exists that might be different. I am not one for proselytizing and believe each person is responsible for his/her beliefs. If a person needs to be taught the existence of God(swt) they are followers and not searchers. Do not accept the beliefs of any person or group unless you your self have found reason to believe.

If anyone ever said they became a believer because of something I said, I would tell them they are believing for the wrong reason. If a person can become a believer because of a preacher, an Evangelist or a religious teacher they are very gullible.

One should never accept any religious teachings, unless they them self have verified them to be true.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
One should never accept any religious teachings, unless they them self have verified them to be true.

Yet that's the question, have people, and I'm not talking about you specifically, but in general, actually verified that any of their religious beliefs are actually true, or have they simply adopted beliefs which they find emotionally comforting and are therefore assuming are true? "I feel it's true" or "I want it to be true" isn't actually verifying that it is, in fact, factually true.
 

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
Yet that's the question, have people, and I'm not talking about you specifically, but in general, actually verified that any of their religious beliefs are actually true, or have they simply adopted beliefs which they find emotionally comforting and are therefore assuming are true? "I feel it's true" or "I want it to be true" isn't actually verifying that it is, in fact, factually true.


I fail to see any reason I need or should prove the existence of God(swt) to any one. I also acknowledge that my reasons for believing are not provable. As to if my belief's bring me comfort the answer is yes. But I will admit I also felt very comfortable and secure during my years as an Atheist. If I was seeking comfort it would have made more sense to have returned to Christianity.

I was in a small Texas town at the time I said the Shahadah. I had not even seen a Muslim in at least 30 years, I had never even heard of any Mosques in Texas and did not even know if there were any Muslims in Texas.

However there were numerous churches very close to me. The logical choice would have been to return to something I was familiar with and could count on support for.

Being Muslim in small towns is not always a very comforting thing. In many ways I often wish I had remained an atheist, but I believe Allaah(swt) is real and in spite of the hardships of being a Muslim in a strong Christian community, I can not deny what I have found to be true.
 
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