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Does religion impair vital critical thinking skills?

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
Hi Woodrow, For the sake of being able to discuss these ideas it seems to me that we should agree on a couple of definitions. So feel free to push back, but would you agree:

- faith is belief without good evidence
- good evidence is repeatable

If so, then the Zeigarnik effect isn't a question of faith, there is good evidence to support the theory.

So why would you think that believing in the Zeigarnik effect (as cognitive scientists might), would increase cognitive drain?
Peace icehorse, (Nice avatar BTW)

First my answers are mine alone and the summation of 74+ years of a very diverse life. Not necessarily agreed upon by anybody.

faith is belief without good evidence
I believed that during my Christian and Atheist years. Today my view is somewhat different. It is more along the line of that if x caused y 100 times in a row, I have faith it will produce the same effect on try 101

good evidence is repeatable

Generally true, but at times it may be a unique event in which the causes no longer exist. The formation/creation of the universe might fall into that category.

If so, then the Zeigarnik effect isn't a question of faith, there is good evidence to support the theory.

I agree

So why would you think that believing in the Zeigarnik effect (as cognitive scientists might), would increase cognitive drain?

First off I do not firmly believe it would increase cognitive drain, I simply see that as a possibility.

I believe the belief of anything, valid or invalid, will result in preconceived concepts and/or bias. This will result in anticipating a result, valid or not, which in turn can (Can, not necessarily will) increase the chances of interference that leads to a self-fulfilled prophecy.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Let's imagine a research biologist who happens to be a strict Christian (already a stretch for me). Everything he knows about biology would lead him to the conclusion that a three day old human blastocyst (pre-embryo), is no more human than the bit of skin a person scratches off to ease an everyday itch. But his religion instructs him, without any evidence, that somehow that blastocyst has a soul. Holding these two ideas simultaneously is cognitively draining. Heck, studies have shown that keeping a new 7 digit phone number in your head is cognitively draining. Now notice that if a different scientist was a strict Muslim, he would hold a different (equally evidence-free) view that this blastocyst is not human. Now we can add to the load that these two scientists have a crucial disagreement based entirely on different supernatural beliefs.

Think this doesn't matter? Ask ill people who could benefit from stem cell research.

Well and good. That issue does matter. So do many other issues such as womens' rights, LGBT+ rights, proper science education in schools (i.e., no creationism), etc.

Now I ask you: what is the empirical evidence that religion is the actual causal force behind such irrational thinking, and not something else, say, neophobia?

After all, your hypothetical is not something that's certain to happen. After all, where in either Christianity or Islam inherent is there an unambiguous statement that blastocysts have souls?

....I'd also like to see those studies on things demonstrated to cause cognitive draining, but largely for completely different reasons. lol
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
But those experiences are neither tested nor critically examined, they just arbitrarily assign a supposed cause to the experience which they cannot demonstrate. They might as well say Godzilla did it, for all they can prove. Blind belief is not impressive.
It is possible to critically examine something without scientific testing, you know. If it weren't we wouldn't have a scientific method at all.

There is more to life than lab results. Religion is not science. Science is not music.

You sneer at blind belief, but that's all you have. You've made a dogma of the scientific method, and anything not subject to testing is a heresy that must be dismissed without reflection. Which is actually completely opposed to the spirit of inquiry that produced it.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
It is possible to critically examine something without scientific testing, you know. If it weren't we wouldn't have a scientific method at all.

I didn't mention the scientific method, although it is the only method that we currently have that routinely and consistently produces demonstrable results. Maybe you can explain to the class about another system which produces the same kind of objectively, demonstrably and factually true results without using the precepts of the scientific method. I'll bet you don't even try because you know you can't do it.

There is more to life than lab results. Religion is not science. Science is not music.

No, science is not music, but music tells us nothing factually true about the world around us either. It makes no claims about what is real. Religion does. Religion isn't music either.

You sneer at blind belief, but that's all you have. You've made a dogma of the scientific method, and anything not subject to testing is a heresy that must be dismissed without reflection. Which is actually completely opposed to the spirit of inquiry that produced it.

No, I have reality. I have the only method we have come up with that gives us the most accurate view of reality and separates what we know about the world around us and what we simply make up in our heads. Inquiry isn't about making something up that is emotionally satisfying, it's about looking at the world objectively and then testing it repeatedly to find out if it is actually true.

Religion doesn't do that. Religion doesn't even try to do that. It's all about emotional coddling, not fact.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Peace icehorse, (Nice avatar BTW)

Thanks, that's my Icelandic horse :)

I believed that during my Christian and Atheist years. Today my view is somewhat different. It is more along the line of that if x caused y 100 times in a row, I have faith it will produce the same effect on try 101

hmmm, that sounds like evidence to me?


Generally true, but at times it may be a unique event in which the causes no longer exist. The formation/creation of the universe might fall into that category.

It might, or the universe we're in and observing might be in its zillionth creation/destruction oscillation.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Please provide proof of this absolute statement.

Rationality is the act of being reasonable, based on facts or reason, logic and critical thinking. Find me one single theist who has ever produced a single objectively-defensible shred of evidence for the actual existence of their god and I'll admit I was wrong.

Go.
 

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
Thanks, that's my Icelandic horse :)



hmmm, that sounds like evidence to me?




It might, or the universe we're in and observing might be in its zillionth creation/destruction oscillation.

They are fantastic horses. We used to raise Arabians, Tennesee walkers and Native American Paints. Never tried the Icelandic horses, they would probably do great here in North Dakota.

It is evidence, I do not believe there should be blind faith without evidence


The oscillation theory is logical. I can understand why it has it's adherents.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I didn't mention the scientific method, although it is the only method that we currently have that routinely and consistently produces demonstrable results. Maybe you can explain to the class about another system which produces the same kind of objectively, demonstrably and factually true results without using the precepts of the scientific method. I'll bet you don't even try because you know you can't do it.
Of course I can't, and I never implied that I could. No, you did not use the exact phrase 'scientific method.' You just said testing. I never claimed that there was an alternative, so your challenge is really quite stupid.

Every post, you just make up arguments that don't even rise to the level of strawmen. Makes me think you're rather desperate not to understand. What are you so afraid of?

No, science is not music, but music tells us nothing factually true about the world around us either. It makes no claims about what is real. Religion does. Religion isn't music either.
Good you're catching up.

Different pursuits have different goals. Different goals require different methods. Different methods produce different goals.

Music isn't supposed to tell us factual truths about the world. Neither is religion, despite the very loud contingent of fools who claim that it does. However, the fact that those people don't understand the very ideas they beat everyone else over the head with does not transform religion into a bad rip off of science.

Religion is not wrong because it's not science. It's not irrational because it's not science. It's not blind or uncritical or stupid because it's not science, It's just. NOT. science.

YEC is no more legitimate as theology than it is as science, so please stop pretending that it's representative of religion. If you like, I can provide an excellent article written by a Christian professor of theology detailing why in magnificent fashion.

Now, can you discuss that rationally, or do you just want to keep pretending I said something easier to beat?

Let me put this into more familiar terms: your argument here is no less grossly ignorant, no less irrational, than if I were to insist that the twisting of science into eugenics invalidated the theory of gravity.

No, I have reality
Join the club, it's quite nice.

Inquiry isn't about making something up that is emotionally satisfying,
No it's not. So I'd appreciate it if you'd stop doing that and examine the reality of what I'm saying.

I don't really expect you will, though.

Religion doesn't do that. Religion doesn't even try to do that.
No, of course not. That's what science is for, not religion. That's what I'm trying to get through your head.

It's all about emotional coddling
No, it really isn't.

Look, I've been studying religion obsessively since I was 11 years old. You don't even understand what it is I've been studying. Maybe you should stop making proclamations and see if you can come up with some intelligent questions.
 

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
Rationality is the act of being reasonable, based on facts or reason, logic and critical thinking. Find me one single theist who has ever produced a single objectively-defensible shred of evidence for the actual existence of their god and I'll admit I was wrong.

Go.

You are asking for "a single objectively-defensible shred of evidence"

I present the Qur'an. I contend it was not the result of human writing.

My reasons

It is the only book ever produced in Qur'anic Arabic. There are no other books or even a single original sentence in the Qur'anic Arabic.

It is in a dialect not spoken by any Arabic people, but it is readily understandable for a speaker of any Arabic Dialect
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
But those experiences are neither tested nor critically examined, they just arbitrarily assign a supposed cause to the experience which they cannot demonstrate. They might as well say Godzilla did it, for all they can prove. Blind belief is not impressive.
In a rational examination of 'paranormal or spiritual' experiences, one studies the body of data over the last 150 years of modern research, looks for patterns, considers explanations normal and non-normal, considers different intelligent views, looks for explanatory hypothesis for phenomena, etc., etc.. This is neither irrational nor blind belief. This analysis helps shape my worldview. I believe that it is highly likely that things exist that dramatically do not fit in the materialist worldview. And this view is based on a logical digestion of all the evidence and argumentation.

It's been my observation that many hard-core materialists vehemently like to attack such claims and not intelligently consider them. This is not rational but shows a subconscious attachment to a worldview. This attachment short-circuits their vital critical thinking skills.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Well and good. That issue does matter. So do many other issues such as womens' rights, LGBT+ rights, proper science education in schools (i.e., no creationism), etc.

Now I ask you: what is the empirical evidence that religion is the actual causal force behind such irrational thinking, and not something else, say, neophobia?

Just to verify, I don't think I've ever claimed that complex systems are driven by single causal forces. But I do claim that religious doctrine is often the sole common factor tying together beliefs and behaviors across many generations, locales, and cultures. Also, for thousands of years we've heard the religious declare that they do what they do "in the name of" their religion. Is it soft bigotry on our parts to disbelieve them?

After all, your hypothetical is not something that's certain to happen. After all, where in either Christianity or Islam inherent is there an unambiguous statement that blastocysts have souls?

Again, we hear from Christians that stem cell research goes against their faith. Who am I to tell them that they are misinterpreting their own faith?

....I'd also like to see those studies on things demonstrated to cause cognitive draining, but largely for completely different reasons. lol

The Zeigarnik effect is pretty google-able. But to summarize, back in the 1920s (I think), Zeigarnik did studies that indicated that incomplete activities are better remembered than complete ones. E.g. waiters remembered customer's orders until they were fulfilled. In other words, the brain puts effort into keeping current those things that are unresolved.

More recently cognitive scientists have determined that most (if not all) cognitive processes draw from the same store of glucose in the brain. So, for example, something as seemingly innocuous as "having a little willpower" drains brain glucose.

My claim puts those two findings together: Usually if you have a religious worldview, you have to constantly filter what the world presents you through this worldview. When presented with a situation, you must ask yourself "what does the scripture say about this, if anything?". This filtering can never be resolved, it is ongoing.

Similarly, if you have a critical thinking worldview, you will filter what the world presents to you. You might ask yourself "Is this new thing consistent with what I've learned about how the world works?". This is also an ongoing process.

If you are a religious person who ALSO employs critical thinking, you are supporting two sets of filters (a cognitive drain), AND you must resolve those situations in which the two worldviews conflict (a very expensive cognitive operation.)

So the Christian Parkinson's disease researcher is constrained from using stem cell research based on dogma, while simultaneously her critical thinking functions argue that stem research could further her work.

This might seem like an unusual case in the West, although we see millions of Christian parents spending lots of cognitive resources fighting against science curricula. Now zoom over to Pakistan or Afghanistan. These folks are aware of the outside world and most of them probably want a better life for their families. But again, their dogma - which is in conflict with modernity - constrains, confuses and depletes them cognitively.

How about a Christian healthcare worker in AIDS-torn Africa? She knows scientifically that condoms would reduce the spread of the disease, but her pope tells her that condoms are counter to her dogma.

One might argue that such cognitive drains are apart of normal life, and of course such drains are inevitable. But the reality is that cognitive resources are sparse and easily depleted. Extra cognitive load can make the difference between learning a complex new idea and being confused. The best teachers understand the importance of this idea and do everything they can in their teaching to reduce cognitive drains. (Google "intrinsic cognitive load" and "extrinsic cognitive load".)
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
What I think the world needs now is for people to be better educated and have better critical thinking skills. Populations that can think critically are harder to manipulate and control by oppressive leaders. Populations that can think critically are harder for big business and corrupt politicians* to hoodwink. Better educated people will make better choices in regards to being good stewards of the planet. And so on.

Cognitive scientists have learned that all cognitive activity uses the same supply of glucose. Everything you do with your brain, drains the same "fuel tank". Even something as simple as exercising willpower uses brain glucose.

As an anti-theist, I see the mental energy the "faithful" put into keeping their religion plausible. I have to think that religion overall (even moderate religion), works in opposition to increasing critical thinking.

Perhaps religion does have some benefits (I'm not convinced), but whatever benefits religion might claim, it strikes me that these benefits could be provided without the need for cognitively draining, supernatural explanations that fly in the face of an otherwise honest view of the world.
Obviously there was a time when religion served a valuable survival purpose, else it would have been left by the wayside long ago. Humans have outpaced their need for religion but not, unfortunately, their desire for it. This is not that different from the Management 101 concept that stress is the result of having responsibility for something without any authority over it. Religion appears to me to create more stress and to do more damage than it is worth. I suspect that is because it has lost the outlets that it was genetically programed for and now rather than contributing to overall fitness results in contradictory outcomes.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Rationality is the act of being reasonable, based on facts or reason, logic and critical thinking. Find me one single theist who has ever produced a single objectively-defensible shred of evidence for the actual existence of their god and I'll admit I was wrong.

Go.
Why? We've established that that isn't the purpose of religion.

But thank you for proving my point. Your idea of rationality and evidence is to dismiss all believers as irrational due to your own irrational insistence that religion should be science.

Have fun with that.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Of course I can't, and I never implied that I could. No, you did not use the exact phrase 'scientific method.' You just said testing. I never claimed that there was an alternative, so your challenge is really quite stupid.

So let me get this straight, you have no other method, you cannot show that there is any reason to take your God claims seriously but you criticize me for using the only method that we actually have that demonstrably works? You just get upset because the only method we have that demonstrably works doesn't support your religious claims. Is that the gist of it?

Every post, you just make up arguments that don't even rise to the level of strawmen. Makes me think you're rather desperate not to understand. What are you so afraid of?

I don't make up arguments, I point out the absurdity of your beliefs. You're the one who believes this crap, not me. You're the one making these claims, not me. I'm just showing how utterly ridiculous and rationally indefensible they are. If you don't want to be ridiculed for your beliefs, try not believing such ridiculous things.

Different pursuits have different goals. Different goals require different methods. Different methods produce different goals.

No, different methods might produce different results, not different goals. The goal is the same regardless of the method.

Music isn't supposed to tell us factual truths about the world. Neither is religion, despite the very loud contingent of fools who claim that it does. However, the fact that those people don't understand the very ideas they beat everyone else over the head with does not transform religion into a bad rip off of science.

So because religion isn't supposed to tell us factual truths about the world, then all the claims that there really is a God is just a bunch of nonsense, right? Because if you are going to tell us that God is actually real, then you are, by definition, claiming a factual truth about the world. Or didn't you get that?

Religion is not wrong because it's not science. It's not irrational because it's not science. It's not blind or uncritical or stupid because it's not science, It's just. NOT. science.

And that's fine. Nobody is claiming it is wrong because it's not science, we're saying it's wrong because it's not defensible. We both agree that it isn't supportable using the only system we both acknowledge exists for finding out the factual reality of the world around us. So is your position that religion is just fantasy? Certainly most religions make claims about the real world, are they all wrong to do so?

YEC is no more legitimate as theology than it is as science, so please stop pretending that it's representative of religion. If you like, I can provide an excellent article written by a Christian professor of theology detailing why in magnificent fashion.

It isn't a representative of all religion, granted. It's a shrinking minority view by some fundamentalists and fanatics, most religions came to grips with evolution a long time ago and conveniently changed their theology to deal with the real world.

Now, can you discuss that rationally, or do you just want to keep pretending I said something easier to beat?

I am. I am expecting either a logical and objective defense of religious claims about reality, or an admission that religious claims about reality are bunk and all of religion is just an emotional pacifier. Those really are the only two options.

Let me put this into more familiar terms: your argument here is no less grossly ignorant, no less irrational, than if I were to insist that the twisting of science into eugenics invalidated the theory of gravity.

I don't think anyone has ever said that YEC or any of it's variants invalidate religion. They are just examples of the lengths some people are willing to go with their religious beliefs. You have to remember, they have the exact same book you do, they simply interpret it differently and then refuse to acknowledge reality when reality tells them that their interpretations are wrong. You do the same thing. There's a reason that there are more than 40,000 distinct sects of Christianity, the Bible is the "Big Book of Multiple Choice" from which just about any position can be justified.

Look, I've been studying religion obsessively since I was 11 years old. You don't even understand what it is I've been studying. Maybe you should stop making proclamations and see if you can come up with some intelligent questions.

I don't care what you've been studying, I did the same thing. I almost certainly know more about the Bible and religion in general than you do. I considered the ministry when I was young, foolish and religious. There was a point in time when I could almost quote the entire Bible from memory. I've read the religious texts of most major religions. But more than just reading them, I actually understand where they came from, which is something most theists simply do not do. They act as though they are reading a book of history. It isn't. It's a book of mythology and if you studied it with a critical eye and actually cared whether or not it was factually true, you'd see that as well.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
You are asking for "a single objectively-defensible shred of evidence"

I present the Qur'an. I contend it was not the result of human writing.

My reasons

It is the only book ever produced in Qur'anic Arabic. There are no other books or even a single original sentence in the Qur'anic Arabic.

It is in a dialect not spoken by any Arabic people, but it is readily understandable for a speaker of any Arabic Dialect

And how does that prove anything? Come on, you're being ridiculous.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Just to verify, I don't think I've ever claimed that complex systems are driven by single causal forces. But I do claim that religious doctrine is often the sole common factor tying together beliefs and behaviors across many generations, locales, and cultures.
Let's focus on this point for a moment.

On a cultural scale, religion is universal. It can be argued that that's beginning to change, but only in the last century or so, out of the whole of human history. There has never been, and has yet to be an atheist civilization.

In that light, do you think it's reasonable to call religion a common factor? Because by that standard, language and buildings are common factors, are they not?

Surely you're aware that correlation is not causation. So why point to religion, our of all the universal components of human society, as a causal force in the woes of specific societies. It is, after all a common factor with all the societies not experiencing those problems.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Why? We've established that that isn't the purpose of religion.

But thank you for proving my point. Your idea of rationality and evidence is to dismiss all believers as irrational due to your own irrational insistence that religion should be science.

Have fun with that.

Then what is the purpose of religion and why does it work at cross purposes with that supposed purpose?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
LMAO

@Cephus How exactly can you point out the absurdity of my beliefs, when you haven't got the least little clue what I believe? What "God claims" have I made? I've only responded to your claims. We've not addressed anything but the absurdities of YOUR beliefs.

LOL, I wonder what I "really mean" this time.
 

kepha31

Active Member
Thana,

Let's ALL acknowledge our biases, shall we?

So the religious person who uses critical thinking at work has to run all new ideas through an extra filter - the filter of his dogma, before he can use his normal critical thinking skills. His dogma is a perpetual unresolved inconsistency in his world, one that creates an ongoing cognitive drain.
A non-sequitur fallacy.
Another word for “critical thinking” is “logical thinking.” This is a high and holy thing, in fact a very Christian thing because the ultimate foundation of logic is the Logos, the eternal Mind or Reason or Inner Word of God, which John’s Gospel identifies as the pre-incarnate Christ. The human art and science of logic is the instrument that teaches us to rightly order and structure our thoughts, as a means to the end of thought, which is truth.
Dogma in this sense is not the enemy of truth, but you have made it so.

Kepha, Apologists are always quick to protect religion and throw "the misguided religious literalists" under the bus.
Actually, the literalists throw themselves under the bus.
The problem is that the religions themselves are often the only constant element across many cultures and many generations. If a particular dogma (e.g. Christianity or Islam), reliably helps to create bad behavior, at some point the dogma must come under some critical scrutiny.
It's easy to blame religion and not the members who fail to live by it. Lumping Christianity with Islam in grouping bad behaviors of both is hasty generalizing, a logical fallacy.

Kepha, I'm sorry, in many cases contraception has absolutely been shown to slow the spread of disease.

Then you should show evidence of your dogma. You should show critical thinking when presented with evidence that shows monogamy and chastity programs to be superior to UN sponsored contraception programs (which demonstrably show an overall increase in divorce, death and disease.) There is a reason the black race is targeted, but I digress. You keep asserting your private dogmas without evidence, and they are loaded with fallacies, ambiguities and falsehoods.
Kepha, In 2014, with over 7 billion people on the planet, and with the negative impacts of an exploding human population all too obvious, I absolutely hold religion accountable for the role it plays in promoting procreation and resisting contraception.

This statement rests on the
overpopulation fallacy. Google "myth of overpopulation". there are millions of sites. Help yourself.
 
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