Does Spirituality Require Belief?

[Unveiled Artist]

Because it's fascinating and revealing. There is an assumption that it might lead to something, but these days I don't have a particular belief about what that something is.

I think the distinction between a belief and an assumption is worth making here. An assumption is more provisional, not something tightly held.

Beliefs arent tightly held...unless your religion, faith, whatever is free floating? If there are no core tenants ij your faith, anything can be true for you?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Whatever happened to meditating out of sheer curiosity? "I wonder what I might find if I meditate?" I pretty much agree with Jiddu Krishnamurti that having a belief about meditation can skew and distort the results.

That cheer curosity is a belief. You are puting to practice by meditation by what you belief/value/define as curiousity. Odd comparison.

A lot of people meditate because they "believe" it helps them to be calm, have peacefulness. Thats their beliefs. The Buddha said his "purpose" is to free people from suffering. So his belief is a life without suffering leads to nivanna. To take that belief out of the Buddba main teaching voids the purpose of the Buddha practices.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think for most Buddhists there is an element of faith in the possibility of enlightenment ( the Third Noble Truth ), and an element of faith in the effectiveness of the 8-fold path ( the Fourth Noble Truth ). "Confidence" is probably more accurate here than "faith" though.
The First and Second Truths are more like scientific theories to be tested, statements to be personally investigated.

Well, you can define it that way. Faith, belief, theories, assumptions, values..whatever is the foundation and tenant of ones practice (say end suffering) inone terminological perspective is a belief.

Talking pass each other?

 

[Kirran]

Maybe we should try and define belief.

 

[psychoslice]

I can certainly understand where you come from on that one.

But I think that to articulate anything of this nature requires one to work via beliefs.

Yes I can agree with that, the ego will keep one away from self realization as much as it can, for realization is its death.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Beliefs according to the dictionary is

An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exist

This belief in the value of hard work

Trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something



It this is true, than beliefs are important. Why?

What are the tenants of your faith? Is it the four noble truths? Are these true to you? If so, these are your beliefs. They are the foundation of your faith.

What about Christianity? If there no beliefs, how do you know Jesus treachings? What do you base your salvation on?

Pagans. Why do you believe in nature? What are the value es and treachings to which you get from nature and or from your gods? Those are beliefs. Without them why do you practice? Even more so, what are your practices based on it not the foundation r beliefs that make them up?

Beliefs are important to our living religious or not. Why is this false?

 

[picnic]

I get annoyed when I see these weird definitions of "spirituality". "Dealing with your own psychology" is not "spirituality" - it is psychological health. Of course if you use that definition then spirituality does not require belief. Why don't we define spirituality to be physical health?

"Spirituality" contains the word "spirit". Historically "spirituality" is associated with religions.Maybe we should call "antidepressants" something more "spiritual" like "enlighteners"? We need to destroy religion - including religious words.

 

[Sunstone]

I get annoyed when I see these weird definitions of "spirituality". "Dealing with your own psychology" is not "spirituality" - it is psychological health. Of course if you use that definition then spirituality does not require belief. Why don't we define spirituality to be physical health?

"Spirituality" contains the word "spirit". Historically "spirituality" is associated with religions.Maybe we should call "antidepressants" something more "spiritual" like "enlighteners"? We need to destroy religion - including religious words.

I'm not impressed with your employment of the etymological fallacy, even when applied to the words "spirit" or "spiritual".

It seems that you are also arguing for a superficial understanding of what all is involved in dealing with one's psychological self. Please do not misrepresent the concept of a psychological self in order to make it sound more superficial than it is.

 

[Sunstone]

That cheer curosity is a belief. You are puting to practice by meditation by what you belief/value/define as curiousity. Odd comparison.

That's quite an oddball definition of the term "curiosity", in my opinion. I don't buy it.

The Buddha said his "purpose" is to free people from suffering.

Where did you come across the Buddha quoted as saying that his purpose in meditating was to free people from suffering? I've never come across such a quote.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's quite an oddball definition of the term "curiosity", in my opinion. I don't buy it.



Where did you come across the Buddha quoted as saying that his purpose in meditating was to free people from suffering? I've never come across such a quote.

Thats not a quote. Thats from the sutras. The Buddha teaches freedom suffering (belief) and how we do so in some schools is by meditation (practice).

Any Buddhist can tell you that without using the word belief.

 

[Sunstone]

Thats not a quote. Thats from the sutras. The Buddha teaches freedom suffering (belief) and how we do so in some schools is by meditation (practice).

Any Buddhist can tell you that without using the word belief.

I don't see how you logically get from Buddhist teachings to such notions as curiosity is a kind of belief, etc. It's just not adding up for me. And since it makes no more sense to me than a world salad, I'm going to bow out of this conversation now. Have fun, though!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't see how you logically get from Buddhist teachings to such notions as curiosity is a kind of belief, etc. It's just not adding up for me. And since it makes no more sense to me than a world salad, I'm going to bow out of this conversation now. Have fun, though!

You didnt ask about curosity. Aside from the Buddha's teachings, which I havent read curisity as a belief in the sutras, but if curisity is what you value when you live youeblife ans how, it becomes your belief or a foundation for your morals.

For example, holistic is not a belief. But that is how I live my life by holistic means. It becomes my foundation/belief system because my beliefs: are that living by nature and with nature is how we are supposed to live. By this belief it becomes my life.

If curiosity is a foundation for your lifestyle it becomes your belief.

Take Buddbism from this.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I get annoyed when I see these weird definitions of "spirituality". "Dealing with your own psychology" is not "spirituality" - it is psychological health. Of course if you use that definition then spirituality does not require belief. Why don't we define spirituality to be physical health?

"Spirituality" contains the word "spirit". Historically "spirituality" is associated with religions.Maybe we should call "antidepressants" something more "spiritual" like "enlighteners"? We need to destroy religion - including religious words.

I take it you've never heard of Carl Jung?

 

[Sunstone]

Maybe we should try and define belief.

Down that path lies madness! Madness!

 

[picnic]

I'm not impressed with your employment of the etymological fallacy, even when applied to the words "spirit" or "spiritual".

It seems that you are also arguing for a superficial understanding of what all is involved in dealing with one's psychological self. Please do not misrepresent the concept of a psychological self in order to make it sound more superficial than it is.

O.k. I know my opinion is the minority - particularly on this forum. Spirituality does matter to me, but I am interested in the honest spirituality of the monks on Mt. Athos - not the slick spirituality of yoga classes, meditation videos, etc. - spirituality that works equally well for theists and atheists because it is nothing but style and attitude.

(And of course, I don't mean to criticize you personally. I have no idea what you think.)

 

[Sunstone]

O.k. I know my opinion is the minority - particularly on this forum. Spirituality does matter to me, but I am interested in the honest spirituality of the monks on Mt. Athos - not the slick spirituality of yoga classes, meditation videos, etc. - spirituality that works equally well for theists and atheists because it is nothing but style and attitude.

I'm trying to see where you're coming from on this, Picnic, but I'm having a hard time doing so -- in part because I keep thinking you could have an excellent discussion with a Zen monk about the role of the psychological self in spirituality. I just think "psychological self" is a new name for a very old concept that is core to at least two or three major religions.

 

[picnic]

I take it you've never heard of Carl Jung?

Yes, I have heard about him, and I am not impressed with his ideas.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, I have heard about him, and I am not impressed with his ideas.

Fair enough. *shrugs*

 

[picnic]

I'm trying to see where you're coming from on this, Picnic, but I'm having a hard time doing so -- in part because I keep thinking you could have an excellent discussion with a Zen monk about the role of the psychological self in spirituality. I just think "psychological self" is a new name for a very old concept that is core to at least two or three major religions.

Well, as a person who has been perpetually out of step with culture throughout my life, I see "spirituality" as about like I see the latest trends in music or fashion or slang. I must listen to people carry on about "spirituality" for the next 20 years or so until hopefully it is replaced by some new trendy thing. It annoys me. The people that speak of "spirituality" are mostly the same people who follow every other trend in society. Good for them I suppose, but it is disrespectful to people who give up everything in pursuit of God - the moth who is willing to fly into the flame. That is spirituality IMO.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

A lot of people meditate because they "believe" it helps them to be calm, have peacefulness. Thats their beliefs. .

Either meditation calms you or it doesn't, practically speaking. It's not really a matter of belief.

I think the same is true more generally of spiritual practices, they have an effect or they don't. If they do have a positive effect then people develop confidence in them. But again this isn't really a matter of belief. There is probably some placebo effect though.

I think it's worth distinguishing between beliefs and practices, that distinction isn't always made clearly enough.