Does the Apostle Paul claim that Jesus Christ, the holy anointed man, is Almighty God?

[Soapy]

John 6:38
King James Version

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

I did state that the verse must be a legitimate (non-trinity modified) verse!!

The words, ‘down from Heaven’ are not valid words in that verse.

This then ties in with the verse that states:

• “No one has ever ascended who did not first descend, except the son of God who is in Heaven”

The verse is stating that a man must first die (descend into the grave) before he can ascend up to Heaven - and only Jesus Christ - who is now in Heaven - has done so!

Which also ties in with Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be reborn before he can see Heaven.

Which ties in with Jesus telling the parable about the seed having to “die” before it can germinate, grow, and produce fruit.

So, unless Jesus died and is resurrected, there could not be salvation and mankind could produce no heirs to God - no fruit of righteousness…

Which points to Jesus’ temptation in the wilderness where Satan tempted him to receive the kingdom of earth WITHOUT having to die an excruciating death!

There are a few more verses where it is claimed that Jesus ‘came down from Heaven’. But you must examine them and see that they cannot possibly be legitimate claims. Jesus warned that man would add and remove from scriptures and he also warned of the treacherous consequences for those who did so. If Jesus warned of such - do you not think it would happen - else Jesus is a liar - and Jesus is not a liar!!!

‘Harken unto those who have the ability - gift of the spirit of God - to discern such treacheries’

 

[samtonga43]

You mean, ‘How does with eliminate a non-existent three person godhead’.
You are, of course, aware that the pagan Egyptians and Hindus also profess a ‘three person godhead’ but the true Christian hears this:
Though there are Gods and Lords aplenty, for us there is ONLY ONE GOD, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ’

Nope. Is there no beginning to your intelligence, Soapy?

The true Christian hears this:
Though there are gods and lords aplenty, for us there is ONLY ONE GOD, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[samtonga43]

The Bible does not HAVE to say the exact words, “God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit” in order to proclaim the truth that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Neither does the Bible HAVE to say the exact words, “You cannot earn God’s love” in order to proclaim the truth that you cannot earn God’s love.

There are many truths embedded in Scripture which are not expressed in certain words combined in a certain order.

If you don’t know much about the Bible, as you recently said, I would advise you to read it in context, making connections, and asking for God’s guidance before you announce that the Bible does not say that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Just wanted to add that I was pleased to see that you feel optimistic after reading my #263. I think we are going in the right direction.

 

[Trailblazer]

I did state that the verse must be a legitimate (non-trinity modified) verse!!

The words, ‘down from Heaven’ are not valid words in that verse.

Why do you think that is a trinity modified verse?

John 6:38
King James Version
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

NIRV
I have not come down from heaven to do what I want to do. I have come to do what the one who sent me wants me to do.
NIV
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

If Jesus did not come down from heaven where did He come from originally?

- The soul of Jesus was in heaven.
- God sent the soul of Jesus from Heaven to Earth, so the soul of Jesus came down from heaven.
- After the soul of Jesus came down from Heaven, Jesus was born in a body and did His work on earth.
- After Jesus did His work He ascended back to Heaven.

This then ties in with the verse that states:

• “No one has ever ascended who did not first descend, except the son of God who is in Heaven”

The verse is stating that a man must first die (descend into the grave) before he can ascend up to Heaven - and only Jesus Christ - who is now in Heaven - has done so!

No, I don't think that is what this verse is saying.
I think it is saying that no one has ever ascended to Heaven who did not first descend from Heaven, except the son of God who is now in Heaven.

In other words, Jesus first descended from Heaven and then Jesus ascended to Heaven which is where Jesus is now.

 

[Brian2]

Listen again, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" this is ONE PERSON, the One whom many say is the Father.,

Echad in Deut 6:4 can be a compound "one" and so can mean more than one person.

now this, Jesus Christ is the "LAST" Adam correct, meaning he is the LAST for now all are in HIM Correct. now Scripture,Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

That is very arbitrary. Find a scripture that say that Jesus is the last something or other (in this case, the last Adam) and then say the because Isa 41:4 says that YHWH is with the last, that must mean that YHWH was saying He was with the last Adam. That is a rubbish argument and if taken to it's obvious conclusion it means that YHWH was saying that He was the first Adam.

for sure the LORD is the FIRST, and the FIRST is "WITH" the Last, and he saiid "I am he". I is a single PERSON correct. now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."

this single person is the FIRST, and "ALSO" is the LAST in PERSONS, for he said, "I, I, I, am he. and Jesus the Christ is the Last. the SAME one person who is FIRST and LAST

So the compound Echad LORD of Deut 6:4 says "I" in the singular. Is that hard to understand? One compound God calls Himself "I" singular.
It seems to rest on whether you think ECHAD can be a compound one or not.

Brian2, now think, for sure we know the LORD/Father is the "FIRST" correct, now hear the scripture, Revelation 1:16 "And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.", (THIS IS THE Lord JESUS). Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

HOLD IT, is not the Father the First? YES, and that's JESUS.

JESUS is the First/Father, and the Last/.Son.so by the First being "ALSO" the Last, (per Isaiah 48:12), there is only one person in the Godhead in an ECHAD of himself.. READ THE SCRIPTURES FOR YOURSELF, DON'T TAKE MY WORD, BUT GOD'S WORD.

101G.

As I said, it seems to rest on whether Echad can be a compound one in Deut 6:4. If it can, and it can, then the one LORD is the first and the last and is the first and with the last, and Jesus can say that He is the first and the last and not be the same person as His Father.
How is it that you do not answer the plain statements of the Gospel where the Son is praying to the Father and the Father speaking to the Son.
Isn't it better to start with the obvious and then go to the not so obvious. You want to do it in the reverse order. I don't know what you will say about the Son praying to His Father and the Father speaking to His Son and about His Son, but I imagine it will be something like "Look at these less obvious passages that I say have to mean just one person, they prove it."
But no, they don't prove anything, we begin with the obvious verses and interpret the less obvious through what the obvious say.

 

[Brian2]

is not the OBJECTIVE is the WORK? listen, 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.". Gifts are given for .... "WORK". 1 Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord." administration, are a "WORK" 1 Corinthians 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." Authorization to do the WORK, is Given by the same one person who is doing the Work., supportive scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." his, his, his, OWN ARM

did you get it now? the Work is done by the SAME ONE who Authorized it.

101G

So the 3, Spirit, Lord and God work in us. That does not mean that all 3 are actually one person.
Jesus said that the Spirit is another Counsellor. Jesus did not say that He was going and would come back as the Holy Spirit.
With Isa 63:5 that is the Son speaking and judging on the day of wrath of God.
John 5:22,23 tells us that the Father judges nobody but has given all judgement to the Son who is a man.
This Son who is judging is also the LORD who comes to judge the earth. (Psalm 98:9, Psalm 96:13)
But the Father and Son are not the same person who comes to judge the earth because of what John 5 says, that the Father will judge nobody but gives all judgement to the Son.
But of course the Son is always in the Father and the Father is always in the Son and they work together in all things, but not because they are the same person.

 

[Brian2]

You mean, ‘How does with eliminate a non-existent three person godhead’.

You are, of course, aware that the pagan Egyptians and Hindus also profess a ‘three person godhead’ but the true Christian hears this:

• ‘Though there are Gods and Lords aplenty, for us there is ONLY ONE GOD, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ’

You do notice, I’m sure, that the apostles do not profess a three person godhead, not even a TWO person godhead, but ONLY a ONE PERSON GOD: The Father.

The Father is in the Son and Son is in the Father. The Father and Son are one.
Do you say that the Father is not out Lord? If not then why say that Jesus is not our God?
Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God".
Jews believe in one God only and Thomas calls Jesus "My God".
Somehow Thomas know that Jesus was God or of God or something.

 

[Brian2]

No, Brian2, it just means that the two agree with each other. It does not mean that the two are the same thing!!
If they were the SAME THING then Jesus would be then a liar to say, ‘The Father is Greater Than I’. That is not an COMMUTATIVE relationship.

But the Father is truth, and the Son agrees with his Father. TRUTH came FROM the Father TO the Son.
This is a ‘One Way’ relationship: “… where one person wields more control.“: ‘The Father is GREATER THAN I’ and because the Truth from Father, and I, too, desire Truth, then ‘I agree with the Father’.

There can be no one way relationship if the two are the same thing.

The Son submits to the Father.

Brian2, the ramification of what Jesus said is that he agrees with the greatness of his Father for the Father teaches all that is good:

• “So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.”

Jesus became a servant and a man and received everything to say from His God and Father.

The reason the Bible scholars and commentators mention neuter ‘one’ is because they are trinitarian. It is encumbrant upon them to twist the scriptures whereever they found the chance. When they are found out they simply claim that ‘it was an error on the part of ONE OVER-ENTHUSIASTIC TRANSLATOR’.

If all it meant was that the Father and Son agree, the Jews would not have taken up stones to try to kill Him.(John 10:30)

Brian2, these people ARE STILL TRINITARIAN… This is great example of Satan fighting Satan.

Trinitarians do not teach that the Son is the Father and the Father is the Son etc. so no they are not trinitarians, they are 101G ers.

This whole claim that the Father is not the Son and the son is not the Father is a non-starter in the order of truth… Trinity MADE the claim and then TRINITY denies it.

Since the truth is that God is Spirit and Jesus is Flesh, there NEVER WAS A PURPOSE OR REASON to deny or confirm any claim of equality or sameness. In fact, THE ONLY CLAIM in scriptures is that ‘The Son is the IMAGE of the Father’… which, again, is not a COMMUTATIVE relationship!!

Commutative has nothing to do with anything.
There are more claims than that the Son is the image of the Father.
BUT since the Son is exactly like God His Father and YHWH said that is nobody like Him, that makes the Son YHWH also along with the Father.
Isa 40:25 “To whom will you liken Me, or who is My equal?” asks the Holy One.
So you liken the Son to Him and then say the Son is not YHWH.

The Son did not ‘BECOME’ a servant nor a man. Try to find a non-trinity verse that says that Jesus ‘BECAME A SERVANT’ and ‘BECAME A MAN’… no such verse at all!!

What is a trinitarian verse or non trinitarian verse?
Jesus was in the form of God and then took the form of a servant and a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Equal to the Father??? Commutative? EQUALITY is COMMUTATIVE!!

Is the Father EQUAL to the Son??

Trinity says Jesus is equal to God: ‘… making himself equal to God’!

Brian2, is GOD EQUAL to the Son?

Commutative, Brian2, remember that equality is COMMUTATIVE!!

What has a mathematical concept got to do with it?
John 5:18 Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
The Father and Son have the same nature, they are equal and this is the type of Son that Jesus claimed to be.
Jesus goes on in John 5 to explain more about His relationship with His Father but does not deny the equality of nature.

 

[Soapy]

Nope. Is there no beginning to your intelligence, Soapy?

The true Christian hears this:
Though there are gods and lords aplenty, for us there is ONLY ONE GOD, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

If what you say was somehow true then, for sure, I have no intelligence!
…..

But happily, what you say is not true!

 

[Soapy]

Why do you think that is a trinity modified verse?

John 6:38
King James Version
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

NIRV
I have not come down from heaven to do what I want to do. I have come to do what the one who sent me wants me to do.
NIV
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

If Jesus did not come down from heaven where did He come from originally?

- The soul of Jesus was in heaven.
- God sent the soul of Jesus from Heaven to Earth, so the soul of Jesus came down from heaven.
- After the soul of Jesus came down from Heaven, Jesus was born in a body and did His work on earth.
- After Jesus did His work He ascended back to Heaven.

No, I don't think that is what this verse is saying.
I think it is saying that no one has ever ascended to Heaven who did not first descend from Heaven, except the son of God who is now in Heaven.

In other words, Jesus first descended from Heaven and then Jesus ascended to Heaven which is where Jesus is now.

You are reading the words of the modified trinity verses. That’s what I warned you to be aware of.

You were saying that Jesus ‘went back to heaven’. I said to you that there were no verses stating that Jesus ‘went BACK’ to heaven since Jesus did not ‘COME FROM Heaven’.

When the Bible was being written down from what the apostles were teaching (remember that they did not wrote anything down as they were sure the world was going to end in their lifetime!) those who wrote it down were not trinitarian but those translating what they wrote were trinitarian. By this time, Emperor Constantine had issued a directive that trinity was to be the definitive belief of the new ‘Christian’ faith therefore the translators were MADE TO ALTER the translations where ever it wasn’t obvious so as to make it fit the directive.

Have you ever wondered why criminals so often so easily get caught? It’s because they make mistakes that are laughable after the event. They fail to plan fully and cannot backfill their deceit so their stories do not match up with coherent reality.
(Reread what I just said, it’s very important to understanding where there are errors in translations in the Bible. PLUS… since God knows that man would try to destroy His word, why wouldn’t He put in place the means to reconstruct the true word… after all, man puts in correction algorithms into data he stores so attempted or accidental corruptions can be reconstructed back to the original… Is man greater than God?)

You can see, therefore, that ANYTHING that cannot be fitted into ‘Beginning-middle-end’ must be treated as suspicious. AND, if it is checked out, the truth will be found through the repeated themes throughout the scriptures - which is why we have the Old Testament prophesies which are far harder to corrupt than the more modern Greek New Testament.

The reason I pressed you on finding a scripture verse saying Jesus came from Heaven is exactly to illustrate the point I made above. There are no prophesies in the Old Testament that state that the Messiah would be FROM HEAVEN.

The prophesy concerning the messiah states that he will be the result of ‘THE SEED OF A WOMAN’… and a ‘UNTO US CHILD IS BORN’… and ‘SERVANT’ of God.
Abraham was told that the messiah would be a child from his own loins (from his lineage).

David was told that there would always be A MAN who would sit on his throne.

Isaiah declares that the messiah would be a SERVANT of God.

Where is the beginning: Does it say that the messiah will come down from Heaven? No! Remember that ‘God speaks what is to be before it happens’.

Where is the middle: Does it say that the messiah was SENT FROM HEAVEN? No! The Angel Gabriel tells the Virgin Mary that the messiah will be a child from her body - that the inert egg in her will be enlivened by the spirit of God (just as the inert body of Adam was enlivened by the spirit of God - note the repeat theme… and the true son in man is enlivens by rebirth in the spirit of God… reread that again, too!)

And where is the end: The messiah is TAKEN UP (raised up) to Heaven BY GOD. He is not TAKEN BACK up to Heaven. Jesus never says he is ‘GOING BACK to Heaven’. In fact, he says: ‘Father, I am coming to you!’. That is a declaration of a first encounter. And, you notice, of course, that when Jesus is raised up to Heaven that the two angels tell the disciples that: ‘As you see him depart into Heaven, he will surely return in like manner!’.
Here, you see the beginning and the middle and the end: he is on earth, he goes up to heaven, he returns FROM Heaven.

I know you are trying to see things from the corrupt trinity wording since you also believe Jesus was in Heaven before becoming a man on earth - but you must learn not to subscribe to false claims and false teachings if you want to see the truth: You must be reborn in the spirit of God and surely you will see truth!

 

[101G]

You said it is not two persons, so I guess you are saying that Jesus is God, the same person?
I believe that verse is saying that God is the first and also the last. That verse has NOTHING to do with Jesus.

GINOLJC, to all,
the Lord JESUS, is the First and the Last. it's just you don't understand the Hebrew term ECHAD/ONE, nor the Greek term ANOTHER.

Let 101G enlighten you on these definitions.
#1. OT . Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
here ONE is the Hebrew Term
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

101G is using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments for this definition.

#2. NT, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"
here, "ANOTHER" is the Greek Term [ 1,,G243 G2087 ,allos heteros ] have a difference in meaning, which despite a tendency to be lost, is to be observed in numerous passages. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort;" heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort." Christ promised to send "another Comforter" (allos, "another like Himself," not heteros).

for this definition 101G is using the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
NOTICE: in G243 Allos is EXPRESS a NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE, but the SAMR Sort. this NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE expressed is as the Same in the term ECHAD, FIRST and LAST in Ordinal Designation. here in the NT, the ANOTHER is also Expressed in the terms Father, and Son, but as the definition states, "THE SAME SORT", and Sort here means, using Dictionary.com online,
SORT, 1. a particular kind, species, variety, class, or group, distinguished by a common character or nature. (READ THAT AGAIN). SAME CHARACTER, SAME NATURE. the Son is the same character and nature supportive scripture. NATURE, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" the term "FORM" here in the verse, is Nature,
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
See also: G3445, G3446, G4832

and God's NATUFRE is Spirit, (see John 4:24a).

now, the character, Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" here the term, "express image", is the Greek word
G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n.
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image
Compare: G1125, G1504
See also: G5480

Trailblazer, let 101F in Christ Jesus enlighten you. defenition #3, states the “character” or the PERSOM, note ... PERSON of God in flesh. do you know why Jesus, God in Flesh is called "Son?" if Not listen up. for the term "“character” means "SON" using the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, the term "Son when used to EXPRESS the Lord Jesus, God in Flesh, is
[ 1,,G5207, huios ] primarily signifies the relation of offspring to parent (See John 9:18-John 9:20; Gal 4:30. It is often used metaphorically of prominent moral characteristics. #2. descendants, without reference to sex, Rom 9:27. this is why a female/Woman is called a Son of God, which has nothing to do with sex, or the GENDER of the person. #3. those who act in a certain way, whether evil, Matt 23:31, or good, Gal 3:7. #4. those who manifest a certain character, whether evil, Acts 13:10; Eph 2:2, or good, Luke 6:35; Acts 4:36; Rom 8:14.

understand Trailblazer, the TERM when EXPRESSED of God, is not Biological; it has nothing to do with GENDER, or the SEX of a PERSON. this is just too easy not to understand.

now one more thing. in Hebrews 1:3a where is says, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person" #1. God is a "PERSON". #2. the term "Express" means Exact, meaning the SAME. just as in the Definition of "ANOTHER. a a NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE, but the EXACT same PERSON, or SORT. my God this is too EASY.

so Trailblazer, all of these finding by 101G can be reproduce, so this is not 101G personal opinion. this is the TRUTH, and you can follow and look up these definitions for yourself.

now, this is between you and God, 101G has told you the TRUTH.

101G.

 

[101G]

It is the same person who will create a new heavens and a new earth and make all things new.
But it is not Jesus.

so, you believe it's not JESUS, who sits on the THRONE in Revelation? now before you answer, listen. only ONE PERSON SITS on the throne, Revelation 4:2 "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." (ONE THRONE, and ONE PERSON SITTING ON IT). Revelation 4:3 "And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald." so clearly only ONE PERSON Sits on the Throne. now this, same chapter. Revelation 4:10 "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying," Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

now, the ONE who sits received POWER. if it's the one whom you call the Father please tell us who GAVE POWER to the Father? book chapter and verse please?

on the Other Hand, 101G know that it is the "Lord" Jesus who sits and have scripture to back up to as him, the Lord Jesus receiving POWER. Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

so if anyone one who read this post have book chapter, and verse stating who gave the Father, or your third person, the Holy Spirit "POWER", please post it. else, it is as said, the Lord Jesus who sits on the THRONE, and Revelation 21:5 "is correct as the Lord Jesus who sits on the throne and he make all things new..
don't argue with 101G, argue, or try to argue with God.

101G.

 

[101G]

Echad in Deut 6:4 can be a compound "one" and so can mean more than one person.

Error, see my post #291 and 292

101G.

 

[101G]

So the 3, Spirit, Lord and God work in us. That does not mean that all 3 are actually one person.
Jesus said that the Spirit is another Counsellor. Jesus did not say that He was going and would come back as the Holy Spirit.
With Isa 63:5 that is the Son speaking and judging on the day of wrath of God.
John 5:22,23 tells us that the Father judges nobody but has given all judgement to the Son who is a man.
This Son who is judging is also the LORD who comes to judge the earth. (Psalm 98:9, Psalm 96:13)
But the Father and Son are not the same person who comes to judge the earth because of what John 5 says, that the Father will judge nobody but gives all judgement to the Son.
But of course the Son is always in the Father and the Father is always in the Son and they work together in all things, but not because they are the same person.

Again see post #291 and 292.

101G.

 

[Soapy]

Why do you think that is a trinity modified verse?

It always troubles me that there is so much naivety among those who are claiming to be speaking the truth of scriptures. Are you not understanding that no truth in the world ever goes untested for attempted corruption: Should Satan see the truth of God and not try to corrupt it?

Do you believe the verse that is supposed to say:

• “God came in the flesh”

No! Of course not. You know that it says:

• “He came in the flesh”

Why do you suppose the translator chose to corrupt the verse to try to make it seem like YHWH GOD came to earth as a man?

And the verse that states:

• ‘There are three in Heaven who testify: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And these three are one’

You do know that the verse was a COMPLETE TRINITARIAN FABRICATION! It has been all but eradicated from every Bible but a few STILL keep in in - and others put a subscript disclaiming it as authentic.

Why do you think translators even added the fictitious verse in the first place? And WHAT IF THE READER was not discerning enough to realise it was fake… wouldn’t they keep stating it as PROOF OF TRINITY?

And what of other verses that claim (E.g.):

• ‘God, our Father, and the lord Jesus Christ’

The trinitarian translation would make it seem that God is BOTH ‘Father’ and ‘Lord Jesus Christ’. The placement of commas is crucial to the proper rendering and they use that to their advantage by missing out where they can. It is the same with:

• ‘I tell you this day: You will be in paradise with me!’

Jesus died that day along with the repentant thief. Jesus had forgiven that thief all his sins and so the man was effectively sinless since he could commit no sin before he died that day. Those who go to Heaven and those who go to paradise and those who go to destruction are decided on ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY. The judgement day is a way far off time and therefore could not be on the day Jesus and that thief died. What Jesus was telling the thief was that, on the day of judgement, he will be already judged as sinless and will go directly to paradise where Jesus will be ruler. So it is very wrong to say that the verse was saying that that very day the thief and Jesus were going to be in paradise - when no judgement day had even yet been.

Why do you suppose trinity tries to claim that Jesus went to paradise that very day? You don’t think the verse was corrupted YET YOU KNOW that the trinity translation is false!!

How much more do you need to hear, see, and, understand about corrupted verses and why they are there - AND - how to discern that they are corrupt - AND how to resolve the corruption back to truth?

I am willing to show you more if you truly are seeking wisdom in scriptural truth.

John 6:38
King James Version
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
NIRV
I have not come down from heaven to do what I want to do. I have come to do what the one who sent me wants me to do.
NIV
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Jesus only said that he ‘Came to do the Will of Him who sent him’.

You are believing what you want to believe since it fits the theme I see you are visualising: that of a pre-existent Jesus in Heaven. I urge you to ditch that fallacy since most else you seem to say is true.

If Jesus did not come down from heaven where did He come from originally?

I’m glad you are asking questions. This way you will get answers…!

The scriptures tells you all you need to know but your minds eye is clouded by the fallacy that Jesus was pre-existent…

Do you know the beginning of the creature: Man.

God is Spirit, and existed in a spirit world… there is no form or shape or physicality in the spirit world. It is boundless and endlessly powerful.

God desired worship and sought to create something that was unheard of in eternity: a LIMITED Physical world bound in power that is limited by laws (we call them ‘Physics’) in which creatures would glorify his greatness. And, in addition, create a special creature IN HIS OWN IMAGE to rule over the created world and all its creatures and features.

This special creature was the man, Adam. In all other creatures God put a recurring spirit but in the man God put a SELF-WILLED spirit. As God is self-Willed, so is His image. As He is ruler in the spirit realm, so the man is to be ruler in the physical realm.

But the man SINNED. Sin meant destruction. A defective component in a system will eventually destroy the system… the component needs to be changed to a non-defective one if the system is to work fully and eternally.

God, throughout the ages, waited and tested many of mankind to see if any could fill the part of the non-corrupt component for the physical system - but none was found.

But God had put in place a contingency plan - a saviour from mankind. Remember I told you that God has ways to resolve errors in His systems: He said that salvation from corruption would come by way of the seed of a woman.

God never defaults on his word… and ‘in the fullness of time God sent His son BORN OF A WOMAN into the world..!’

Are you reading ‘SENT INTO THE WORLD’ as meaning ‘SENT FROM HEAVEN’.

If so then You are projecting…

Jesus being ‘SENT’ into the world carries the meaning of “Facing adversity; Being subject to evil; Tested and tempted by sin”. Take note that Jesus DID NOTHING of greatness before he was ANOINTED AND TEMPTED in the wilderness by the great tempter, himself. Take note that immediately afterwards Jesus was facing adversity from the very people whom he grew up with and around. And only then did he start doing his great works.

And the BIRTH OF JESUS was like this….
An angel appeared to the Virgin Mary announcing that God had found favour in her and thus had designated her as the one through whom the saviour would be born: remember the ‘Seed of a woman’?

((Haven’t I written all this before???))

Spiritually, sins comes through the Father of a child: the creator. Therefore, a sinless man can only come through a NEW MAN created through the spirit of God. And that’s what happened with Mary: The egg in her was not enlivened by the sperm of a sinful human Father but from the sinless, holy, and righteous Spirit of God. And therefore ‘the Child to be born SHALL BE HOLY and called the Son of God’.

This child, is a replacement for the first man who became corrupted by sin. Jesus (Yeshua / Joseph) was tested to see if he, too, would sin. But he did not sin. Jesus is called: ‘The Last Adam” to reflect that fact that not only is he created as was the FIRST ADAM but that no other ADAM would ever again be created (There are more attesting verses which you can read for yourself!)

- The soul of Jesus was in heaven.
- God sent the soul of Jesus from Heaven to Earth, so the soul of Jesus came down from heaven.
- After the soul of Jesus came down from Heaven, Jesus was born in a body and did His work on earth.
- After Jesus did His work He ascended back to Heaven.

What you are saying is that the prophesy of Jesus was already with God from the beginning. This is attested through the term, ‘Seed of a woman’. It does not mean that Jesus EXISTED AS A PERSON before being CREATED as a child in the body of Mary.

No, I don't think that is what this verse is saying.
I think it is saying that no one has ever ascended to Heaven who did not first descend from Heaven, except the son of God who is now in Heaven.

In other words, Jesus first descended from Heaven and then Jesus ascended to Heaven which is where Jesus is now.

I asked you to quote a verse saying that Jesus descended from Heaven. But the only thing you provide is TRINITY CORRUPTED verses which do not fit into any scenario set out in scriptures.

If Jesus was to descend from Heaven then God would have told us so through prophesy so there could be no disputing (‘God tells thing before they happen so no one can say they told you so!’)

In fact, there is not even a verse from God declaring Jesus being IN HEAVEN anywhere in scriptures EXCEPT AFTER Jesus is raised up to Heaven by the Father.

Where are you getting you information for what you write and believe? What is your source - There is nothing in the scriptures that says anything you are saying about this matter.

Are you just imagining it for your own self sake?

 

[Soapy]

The Father is in the Son and Son is in the Father. The Father and Son are one.
Do you say that the Father is not out Lord? If not then why say that Jesus is not our God?
Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God".
Jews believe in one God only and Thomas calls Jesus "My God".
Somehow Thomas know that Jesus was God or of God or something.

Brian2, you are spinning in a tiny circle thag uz getting you nowhere and it shows why you keep repeating your same old fallacies.

Your mask is slipping by your own admittance even as you say:

Somehow Thomas know that Jesus was God or of God or something.

That’s a climb down which tells that happily even you are seeing sense that Thomas was not seeing YHWH. Jesus… Jesus Christ, had only just PROVED that he was not SPIRIT. Jesus just proved to Thomas that he, Jesus Christ, was a MAN:

• ‘See and touch me in the wounds of my hands and side: see I have flesh and bone that a spirit does not have!’ (Paraphrased)

How do you claim that Jesus was lying … how do you believe Jesus lied to Thomas - do you not fear almighty God… do you not fear the punishment that comes from lying to the spirit of God (which is the spirit of Truth!)?

And, I repeat, the other ten disciples made no such claim that they had ‘seen God’, and, in fact, all eleven of them went back to doing their day job shortly afterwards.

Brian2, you make the fallacious claim even worse in that regard since anyone who witness ‘GOD’ first hand cannot by any means remain the same afterwards… even Moses had to shield himself before God on the mountain but still was markedly changed when he came back to the people. This, if Thomas saw almighty God face to face and even handled almighty God and then simply went away to continue his daily life, what power does almighty God have- none, it would seem by your presentation.

Brian2, pray for forgiveness. But if you cannot do that then at least NEVER use that verse as a proof of your fallacious claims ever again!!

 

[Soapy]

The Son submits to the Father.

Jesus became a servant and a man and received everything to say from His God and Father.

If all it meant was that the Father and Son agree, the Jews would not have taken up stones to try to kill Him.(John 10:30)

If you are claiming that the Jews that Jesus was remonstrating with were right, then you are claiming that Jesus was lying.

I don’t think you thought that part out before believing you’d found a winning verse.

Trinitarians do not teach that the Son is the Father and the Father is the Son etc. so no they are not trinitarians, they are 101G ers.

ANY BELIEF SYSTEM that believes in Father, son, and Holy Spirit as ONE GOD, or ONE PERSON as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit GOD, is trinitarian.

But never mind that. Unless the belief is that GOD is one God: the Father, alone; YHWH by name, it is not the testimony of Jesus Christ and therefore is a false belief.

Commutative has nothing to do with anything.

Really?
Is the Father equal to the Son?

Commutative… you’re don’t acknowledging what it means, are you?

There are more claims than that the Son is the image of the Father.

An image is not equal to the source from which it is the image. An image can do nothing by itself - it can only do what the source directs it to do. Is it strange that Jesus says exactly the same: ‘I can only do what I see my Father doing!’
COMMUTATIVE: Does the Father do only what he sees the Son doing?

BUT since the Son is exactly like God His Father and YHWH said that is nobody like Him, that makes the Son YHWH also along with the Father.
Isa 40:25 “To whom will you liken Me, or who is My equal?” asks the Holy One.
So you liken the Son to Him and then say the Son is not YHWH.

Your word games only show you know that you are speaking falsely about what you say you are claiming.
In order to say what you just said you first must know that if was not true.

What is a trinitarian verse or non trinitarian verse?
Jesus was in the form of God and then took the form of a servant and a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Have the same mindset as Jesus Christ. God does not set himself last in anything. The mindset that Jesus speaks of is pertaining to one who is a servant - God is not a servant.

What has a mathematical concept got to do with it?

Squirming won’t help you. Distractions won’t help you!

John 5:18 Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
The Father and Son have the same nature, they are equal and this is the type of Son that Jesus claimed to be.
Jesus goes on in John 5 to explain more about His relationship with His Father but does not deny the equality of nature.

Brian2, I hear you crying, weeping bitter tears, frustration is ever you food. The truth has defeated you so all you can do is dig your head in the sand and pretend you don’t see nor understand what you see and understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

so, you believe it's not JESUS, who sits on the THRONE in Revelation? now before you answer, listen. only ONE PERSON SITS on the throne, Revelation 4:2 "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." (ONE THRONE, and ONE PERSON SITTING ON IT). Revelation 4:3 "And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald." so clearly only ONE PERSON Sits on the Throne. now this, same chapter. Revelation 4:10 "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying," Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

now, the ONE who sits received POWER. if it's the one whom you call the Father please tell us who GAVE POWER to the Father? book chapter and verse please?

on the Other Hand, 101G know that it is the "Lord" Jesus who sits and have scripture to back up to as him, the Lord Jesus receiving POWER. Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

so if anyone one who read this post have book chapter, and verse stating who gave the Father, or your third person, the Holy Spirit "POWER", please post it. else, it is as said, the Lord Jesus who sits on the THRONE, and Revelation 21:5 "is correct as the Lord Jesus who sits on the throne and he make all things new..
don't argue with 101G, argue, or try to argue with God.

101G.

Jesus Christ was a Messiah, but He was not the Messiah who was prophesied in the Old Testament.
No, it's not JESUS, who sits on the THRONE in Revelation.

Jesus is sitting on His throne of David in heaven where He will reign forever, but Jesus is not coming back to earth to rule.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

THE TRUE MEANING OF THE PROPHECIES CONCERNING THE COMING OF CHRIST

“In the Bible there are prophecies of the coming of Christ. The Jews still await the coming of the Messiah, and pray to God day and night to hasten His advent…….

The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting. He exalted those Jews who recognized Him. They were men and women of humble birth, but contact with Him made them great and gave them everlasting dignity. The animals who were to live with one another signified the different sects and races, who, once having been at war, were now to dwell in love and charity, drinking together the water of life from Christ the Eternal Spring.

Thus, all the spiritual prophecies concerning the coming of Christ were fulfilled, but the Jews shut their eyes that they should not see, and their ears that they should not hear, and the Divine Reality of Christ passed through their midst unheard, unloved and unrecognized.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 54-56

Now, as the return of Christ, Baha’u’llah, who brought the Most Great Law, is sitting on the throne of David and ruling on earth.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

 

[Trailblazer]

Where are you getting you information for what you write and believe? What is your source - There is nothing in the scriptures that says anything you are saying about this matter.

Are you just imagining it for your own self sake?

I get my information from the Baha'i Writings, which explain what the Bible means. Without those explanations, one is lost in the woods, arguing back and forth the way you are doing on this thread with other Christians, who all interpret Bible verses their own way and all believe they got it right.

Misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning, and that is understandable because it was prophesied in Daniel 12 that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it.

Daniel Chapter 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Baha'is believe that the 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

Unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before, by reading the Baha’i Writings.

 

[101G]

Jesus Christ was a Messiah, but He was not the Messiah who was prophesied in the Old Testament.
No, it's not JESUS, who sits on the THRONE in Revelation.

well let's see what the bible says about that. Genesis 49:9 "Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?" Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be." Genesis 49:11 "Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:" Genesis 49:12 "His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk."

do you know who "Shiloh" is?
H7886 שִׁילֹה Shiyloh (shee-lo') n/p.
1. tranquil.
2. Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah.
[from H7951]
KJV: Shiloh.
Root(s): H7951

and this "SHILOH" bind his his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; Zechariah 9:9 "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***."

Matthew 21:1 "And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples," Matthew 21:2 "Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me." Matthew 21:3 "And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them." Matthew 21:4 "All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, "Matthew 21:5 "Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***." Matthew 21:6 "And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them," Matthew 21:7 "And brought the ***, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon." Matthew 21:8 "And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way." Matthew 21:9 "And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest." Matthew 21:10 "And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?" Matthew 21:11 "And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."

well Trailblazer, the bible says this "Shiloh" is Jesus the Christ.. so all the rest of your post is in ERROR.

101G.