samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Unhappily for you, it actually is true, Soapy. You have been deceived. The true Christian hears this:
"Though there are gods and lords aplenty, for us there is ONLY ONE GOD, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit".
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Does the Apostle Paul claim that Jesus Christ, the holy anointed man, is Almighty God?
- Thread starter Soapy
- Start date
Unhappily for you, it actually is true, Soapy. You have been deceived. The true Christian hears this:
"Though there are gods and lords aplenty, for us there is ONLY ONE GOD, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit".
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Smoke and mirrors. Anyone can cherry-pick verses and interpret those verses any way they choose to in order to TRY to prove their points. Examples of such are all over this thread. However, the fact that there is no agreement as to what the verses mean demonstrates that someone is in error, or everyone is in error. I think that you all have parts of the truth but not all of the truth.
Jesus Christ was a Messiah, but He was not the Messiah who was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Baha'u'llah was the Messiah who came to fulfill the prophecies for the return of Christ and the Messianic Age, which will be fulfilled during this age.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I do not see anything there to denies Echad can be used to mean a compound "one".
Brian2
Veteran Member
Again I see no answer given. "Another" Comforter means that Jesus and the Comforter are not the same person, even if they have the same nature.
Also notice in Phil 2 that God, with the same nature as His Son, exalts His Son. Different persons there imo.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You certainly got that right, spot on.
101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all,
Compound: 1. a thing that is composed of two or more separate elements; a mixture: 2. made up or consisting of two or more existing parts or elements: 3. make up (a composite whole); constitute:,
Unity: 1. the state of being united or joined as a whole: 2. the state of forming a complete and pleasing whole. 3. a thing forming a complex whole:4. in MATHEMATICS the number one:
do you see your problem with a compound unity now?
101G.
101G
Well-Known Member
the term "WITH" means the SAME one person in Phil 2:6. and the term "ANOTHER" means the SAME person as used in G243 Allos. supportive scripture. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." IS NOT THE Lord JESUS THE "ARM"/POWER OF GOD IN FLESH? yes, and is not that ARM is the Christ in Isaiah chapter 53 that brought salvation unto him? yes. we suggest you read Isaiah 63:5 and Isaiah chapter 53 to correctly understand the ECHAD.
now Brian2, let's make it very simple for you. yes, "you stated truly that the Lord Jesus has the same Nature of God which is Spirit". ok, now a question, "How much of the Spirit was made EMPTY",
G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v.
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
[from G2756]
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain
Root(s): G2756
when one of your compound unity persons was manifested in flesh as the Christ. listen, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, (Form is Spirit, per John 4:24a), thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, (he Emptied himself), and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
so Brian2, how much of the ONE Spirit was G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō'), made Empty, for one of the compound unity person to come or manifest in flesh. for the G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō'), person was in the Form of God, Spirit.
I'll be looking for your answer.
101G.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I have no knowledge of this belief of yours but there is enough to unite large aspects that are vital to the truth of the gospel.
I would therefore advise you to drop the idea that Jesus was pre-existent. When you do that you won’t need to invent or modify the scripture verses to fit your belief. In addition you will be able to understand the several adulterated verses in the scriptures and also see what the truth of those verse should be.
I hope I have already shown you many of these but if you want more or any then please just ask me.
The basics:
- God created a physical world and sought to put an image of himself over it as ruler
- The image is man - not a demoted Heavenly spirit creature
- The man was holy and righteous in his making but soon sin came into him
- God was angry but swayed away from destroying the man and his offspring since the man was His image in flesh
- God put it that if ANOTHER MAN (offspring of the first) could be found who was sinless then that man would be sacrificed for the sin of the first man - only then would the totality of humanity be SUBJECT to salvation else a more profound solution would come about - by means of a new man made in the manner of the first (the messiah from the fabled ‘Seed of a Woman’)
- Many men came near but none was sinless. One was close, Abraham, and God promised him that the messiah would come through his seed
- Throughout the ages no man, not even from the seed of Abraham, was found without sin. Two further came close: David, and his Son, Solomon. But even they sinned but yet David was God’s favoured one. God promised that His promise to Abraham would succeed and that the messiah would take the seat on the throne of David (a spiritual throne, obviously)
- Given time and still no man was found, God put in place the plan for the seed of the woman to appear. You will know that the scholars and scribes and seers and tellers had been predicting the date of the coming of the messiah… And suddenly, it was so!!
- A virgin (in the line of ancestor David) was overshadowed by the spirit of God and thus a child NOT IMPREGNATED BY AN OFFSPRING IF THE FIRST MAN (Adam) was CREATED (man from God. a normal offspring is PROCREATED - man from man)
- This child born of the spirit of God was sinless, as was the first man (Adam). He spent 30 years living a normal life before he was ‘CALLED BY GOD’ to carry out the mission God had set for him
- God EMPOWERED HIM with Holy Spirit and power (Acts 10:37-38) and he was tempted to see whether he would misuse his powers. He did not and was therefore declared ‘SON OF GOD’ as the angel had told the virgin before hand (All things spoken by the Angel are those directed for him to say by God so it is God’s words that were spoken to the virgin)
- The child was named ‘Jesus’/‘Yeshua’, which is an anglasized name from the original ‘Joshua’ - since, ‘He will save his people’ (refer to ‘Joshua’ in the time of Moses and the promised land!)
What else do you want to know?
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Excuse me…?
The true Christian hears this:
"Though there are gods and lords aplenty, for us there is ONLY ONE GOD, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit".
Which scripture verse are you referring to? Please post it as I have never seen it.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Yes, Brian2 has a habit of trying to trick poster by posting the truth and hoping they will deny it since he normally posts deceitful posts.You certainly got that right, spot on.
He’s a tricky one but nonetheless easily found out of you read and dissect the truth from the lies.
This is certainly something worth learning about trinitarian debators.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Please, tell me in short points, what you’d belief about the scriptures say by this revelation that you claim?
What was the beginning …
How did man come about in the world and why God was angry with Adam… etc.
What was the middle…
What was God’s promise for man and how did he go about seeking it - why was the messiah sent at the time he was… WHERE and what did the messiah do before coming to mankind (in your belief)
What is the end…
What is the purpose of the messiah for his end? Scripture says hd takes his seat on the throne of king David with a group called the ELECT as kings and priests who administer over the created world. How does your belief state this?
Add anything else you feel worthwhile so I can understand …!
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
What is a compound ‘one’?
Is it like a cake is a compound ‘one’ even though it is made up of many ingredients and once baked are inseparable?
Are you saying that Almighty God is a combination of several inseparable persons who, together, are called ‘God’?
There’s only one thing (for now!):
- Each INGREDIENT, separately, is not the CAKE!
- Each PERSON, separately, is not the GOD!
- The Father is not God
- The Son is not God
- The Spirit of God is not God
- “The Father, the Son, and the spirit of God”, God!
However, JESUS, in your ideology, leaves Heaven. Note that Jesus was not on a throne until after he is taken up to Heaven by the Father…
.., the ONLY ONE who is NEVER SEEN BY ANYONE AT ANY TIME.
And the spirit of God, which also does not sit on a throne, comes to earth to be forever with mankind … therefore no longer in Heaven!
And you said there never was a time that Jesus was separated from ‘GOD’ even though scriptures details this separation.
The only reason for your denial is to try to cover up the failings of your trinity ideology which doesn’t seem to know which way it is misleading those who believe it. Or, in fact, it actually is GLORIFYING ITSELF on misleading its adherents.
Your problem is that you know you are being misled and somehow glorify yourself in doing their works because it is easier than believing the truth.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
All true, except for the part about sinlessness.
You first have to define what is a sin in order to claim that only Jesus was 'without sin.'
What does it mean to be without sin? How do you define sin?
What do you think it means to say that Jesus was pre-existent?
Perhaps you have the wrong impression of what I believe. I do not believe that Jesus existed from eternity, like Christians believe.
I believe that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before He was conceived in this world.
I believe that the souls or ordinary humans come into existence at conception so they were not pre-existent like the soul of Jesus.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that man evolved through the process of evolution that God set in motion.
At a certain point during the 'process of evolution' man became distinct from the other animals, and it was at hat time that God gave man a soul, which is what makes man distinct from the lower animals, but still an animal.
Humans have existed for about 200,000 years. Of course, that means that Adam was not 'literally' the first man who ever existed. Before Adam there were other religions although we have no records of them since the art of writing did not exist that far back in history.
I believe that Adam was a prophet and the first man in Adamic Cycle of religion, which is the Cycle of Prophecy that lasted about 6,000 years and ended with Mumammad, who was the Seal of the Prophets.
I believe that God was angry with Adam because Adam disobeyed God when He ate the fruit from the tree.
However, I believe that the story of Adam and Eve was an allegory, not a story of real events that took place.
30: ADAM AND EVE
It depends upon which promise you are talking about. God has made more than one promise.
One of God's promises was to redeem mankind....
I believe that Jesus was sent to sacrifice Himself for the sins and inequities of mankind.
I believe that Jesus besought the one true God the honor of sacrificing himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things...... Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
Notably, Jesus never said anything about an 'original sin' committed by Adam and Eve as the reason for his sacrifice. I believe that our sinful nature was inherited by the descendants of Adam in the following way:
I believe that Adam was a Prophet, so His soul was in the spiritual world before His body was born into the material world. When Adam was born and entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom (where he was in the spiritual world) and fell into the world of bondage (the material world). From the spiritual world, in the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil (the material world)... This attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is (allegorically) the serpent which is always in our midst and continues and endures... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and their exalted position and instead have the propensity to sin.
I believe that the end of Jesus' mission on earth came when Jesus completed His work on earth. Jesus was the Messiah for the Christian dispensation, but He was never slated to be the Messiah of the Age in which we are now living. We know that because Jesus said he finished His work in this world and was no more in the world.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
I do not know what scripture you are referring to that says he takes his seat on the throne of king David with a group called the ELECT as kings and priests who administer over the created world.
I believe that Jesus is sitting on the throne of David in heaven, but Jesus will never sit on the throne of David on earth, since Jesus is not coming BACK to earth.
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
The Throne upon which Jesus sat is the Eternal Throne from which Jesus reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away.
I believe that all the prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah, and the Messianic Age prophecies are in the process of fulfillment, since we are living in the Messianic Age. This is only the beginning of that Age, 160 years into an Age that will last no less than 1000 years, so not all the prophecies have been fulfilled yet, but they are in the process of fulfillment
However, the promises of God to send a Messenger who would usher in a New Age have been fulfilled.
“The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
I believe that God is ruling on the throne of David, through Baha'u'llah. The Most Great Law refers to the Revelation of God that came through Baha'u'llah, His teachings and His laws.
“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90
That's probably enough for now. Too much information often leads to confusion.
Please let me know if you have any questions as I suspect you will.
101G
Well-Known Member
did not YHWH come to earth as a man? yes,
Question, "is anyone God Equal?" yes or no. but before you answer, read Isaiah 40:25 first
101G
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
This:
Though there are gods and lords aplenty, for us there is ONLY ONE GOD, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit".
is what Christians 'hear'.
Your version--
Though there are Gods and Lords aplenty, for us there is ONLY ONE GOD.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
@Soapy said: Which scripture verse are you referring to? Please post it as I have never seen it.
Can you tell us what chapter and verse that is in the Bible?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
It is not in the Bible.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Maybe being united, or joined as a whole, is correct.
Either way, it does not show that the trinity is wrong.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I don't understand the question "how much of the ONE Spirit was made Empty, for one of the compound unity person to come or manifest in flesh. for the person was in the Form of God, Spirit. "
All this sounds a bit complex, the way you are trying to argue it. Isn't it better to go with the simple, straightforward things first and then to the complex from there. I go with Jesus praying to His Father and the Father speaking from heaven. That shows 2 persons.
So then we come to Phil 2 with that idea in mind and see the Son being sent by His Father to become a man.
I don't know if "in the form of God" means that Jesus was a spirit but yes Jesus was a spirit and stayed in that form when He became left His glory and repute behind and became a man.
"being in the Form of God" means that He was in that form and continued to be in that form even as a man.
So what are you saying that "He emptied Himself" means anyway?