Does the Bible Contradict Itself ?

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, that verse is in Genesis 40:10.
I am afraid there's no other way to interpret it - a monarchical line from Judah for a future state of Israel (obviously) which will all end with the Messiah's coming.
How else can you read it?
Certainly it offends the "modern" mind.

The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

But the history of the area in no way matches that. There was a long period of the Babylonian exile where they were not under their own rule. If it is a "prophecy" it is a failed one.

 

[PruePhillip]

But the history of the area in no way matches that. There was a long period of the Babylonian exile where they were not under their own rule. If it is a "prophecy" it is a failed one.

Certainly the Judah aspect of the Monarchy didn't survive till Jesus, but there was still a monarchy. And the "kingdom" that would come from the last Judean king would be the Messianic one (but of course, people will say that Jesus wasn't supposed to be of the Davidic line, but it's the symbols that concern us.)

 

[Subduction Zone]

Certainly the Judah aspect of the Monarchy didn't survive till Jesus, but there was still a monarchy. And the "kingdom" that would come from the last Judean king would be the Messianic one (but of course, people will say that Jesus wasn't supposed to be of the Davidic line, but it's the symbols that concern us.)

Reinterpretation upon reinterpretation means that almost any vague or poetic line can be reinterpreted as "prophecy". To be a valid prophecy it first must clearly be a prophecy. This fails the first test.

 

[PruePhillip]

Reinterpretation upon reinterpretation means that almost any vague or poetic line can be reinterpreted as "prophecy". To be a valid prophecy it first must clearly be a prophecy. This fails the first test.

So what do YOU think Jacob was alluding to when he blessed Judah?

 

[PruePhillip]

Reinterpretation upon reinterpretation means that almost any vague or poetic line can be reinterpreted as "prophecy". To be a valid prophecy it first must clearly be a prophecy. This fails the first test.

You can say the Israeli monarchy began with a non-Judaeo king (King Saul) and ended with Herod's sons, clients of Rome.
And you can say that Israel was split into two, with ten of the twelve not having a Judean king at all.
But Jacob didn't split the prophesy like that.
There would be a kingdom, there would be a kingdom from the tribe of Judah, there would be a Messiah and it would be the Gentiles and not the Jews who would believe upon him. I like that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So what do YOU think Jacob was alluding to when he blessed Judah?

Does it really matter? Genesis and Exodus both are allegory at best. Jacob is almost certainly a fictitious character.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can say the Israeli monarchy began with a non-Judaeo king (King Saul) and ended with Herod's sons, clients of Rome.
And you can say that Israel was split into two, with ten of the twelve not having a Judean king at all.
But Jacob didn't split the prophesy like that.
There would be a kingdom, there would be a kingdom from the tribe of Judah, there would be a Messiah and it would be the Gentiles and not the Jews who would believe upon him. I like that.

Herod was not exactly a "king". Nor was he in a line of kings. The verse is so vague as to be worthless.

 

[PruePhillip]

Herod was not exactly a "king". Nor was he in a line of kings. The verse is so vague as to be worthless.

No, but there was still a monarchy. He was King Herod the Great.
And they modeled themselves upon the Judean kings of old.
The rest of the text you ignore - is it too difficult?

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, but there was still a monarchy. He was King Herod the Great.
And they modeled themselves upon the Judean kings of old.
The rest of the text you ignore - is it too difficult?

It was pretty much nonsense. Once again, it is almost certain that Jacob was fictional. Why did you ignore that?

 

[PruePhillip]

It was pretty much nonsense. Once again, it is almost certain that Jacob was fictional. Why did you ignore that?

So a "fictional" guy writes an account that accords fairly well with the world we see today through the eyes of Messianic Jews.
It has happened - I think the two tiny moons of Mars, deimos phobos, were predicted in science fiction. And there's the prophecy of Cortez coming to the Aztecs.
But there's (just ignoring hundreds of other prophecies in scripture) a number of separate prophecies here. I will count them:
1- a state of Israel
2- a monarchy
3 - a law
4 - Judean kings
5 - Messiah
6 - Gentiles obeying the Messiah
7 - end of the state of Israel

And... many of prophecies speak of the Jews returning to their homeland in the latter days when the Gentiles turn away. In the late 1800's the idea of Zionism was ridiculed by Jew and Gentile alike. It's the same as people calling themselves Babylonian returning to a hostile Iraq and rebuilding Babylon, its language and culture, against all the odds. Think about it - it's well written in the bible.

 

[stvdv]

It is impossible for God to lie. (Hebrew 6:18)
So how could his book be filled with glaring inconsistencies and significant discrepancies and still be called the Word of God?

That is very interesting. Just a few thoughts that popped up [I did not share them to get into debate though]:

1): This verse could be a lie: "It is impossible for God to lie. (Hebrew 6:18)"
2): Humans are made in God's image, so "our word" can be seen as "God's word"
3): We don't have a definition of God so far, so who/what are we talking about claiming "It is impossible for God to lie. (Hebrew 6:18)"
4): Maybe God is just an imagination in human mind, so "It is impossible for God to lie. (Hebrew 6:18)"
5): Maybe God exists, but our "picture" is wrong. In our mind "things seem inconsistent" where seen from God it is not.

 

[Skwim]

Now.. this is how the cynic operates.
We have four accounts of Jesus, written by eye witnesses before they died (save for Luke who compiled accounts)
Okay?
We study them and FIND NO DISCREPANCIES.

In all caps no less. Hmmmm. Must be a HUGE fact. In any case, let's take a look at the books of Matthew and John, but first keep in mind the definition of your word "discrepancy"

discrepancy noun
uk /dɪˈskrep.ən.si/ us /dɪˈskrep.ən.si/ formal

difference between two things that should be the same ​

Okaaay . . . . take a look at what each book has to say about the rolling stone incident.

Matthew 28:1-2, 5
1The day after the Sabbath day was the first day of the week. That day at dawn Mary Magdalene and the other woman named Mary went to look at the tomb. 2 Suddenly an angel of the Lord came from the sky, and there was a huge earthquake. The angel went to the tomb and rolled the stone away from the entrance. Then he sat on top of the stone.
5 The angel said to the women, “Don’t be afraid. I know you are looking for Jesus, the one who was killed on the cross.

John 20:1
Early on Sunday morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb. She saw that the large stone was moved away from the entrance.
​

20 Point Test Question: When the women came to the tomb was the stone already rolled away or not?

Big problem - how can three eye witnesses, decades later, come up with identical stories?

Considering the discrepancy between Matthew and John, obviously they can't.

Of course the bible "contradicts" itself - and it probably does so to put off the all-wise, all-knowing, know-it-all cynics.

Curious, just how does purposely putting contradictions in the Bible put off the all-wise, all-knowing, know-it-all cynics?

.

 

[PruePhillip]

In all caps no less. Hmmmm. Must be a HUGE fact. In any case, let's take a look at the books of Matthew and John, but first keep in mind the definition of your word "discrepancy"
.

This is taken out of context. I said if there were 'no discrepancy' then the cynic would challenge the accounts because you can't get four 'historians' writing the same thing.
Discrepancies on minor points shows the Gospels were not redacted or contrived at a later stage. And on that note - discrepancies between the hand written documents, going back to the First Century, are few and minor.

 

[12jtartar]

The Bible has been demonstrated by the evidence as a compilation of edited and redacted books dating from between about maybe 700 BCE to 300 AD of questionable provenance. The Pentateuch is demonstrated to be an eclectic edited compilation from materials dating back to Sumarian, Babylonian, Canaanite and Ugarit.cunieform tablets.

Word of God? No. Containing works inspired by God, I believe so, but also compiled by fallible humans from the perspective and their interpretation in the time it was written, edited and compiled.

shunyadragon,
It seems that people who do not want to acknowledge that God has the right to expect all people to obey Him, look for anything to try to prove the Bible wrong. They say, since it is wrong here, it is probably wrong in this place that requires me to do something.
There is no one on earth that can rightly be called a Christian, who questions the Holy Scriptures.
It has been found to be true that no human being can translate the Bible without making a mistake. Any mistakes that have been made over the years, by many translators and copyists are easily found by comparing one Bible with another. Each Bible will have mistakes, but not the same mistakes, so it is very easy to see which is accurate, by comparison. If one Bible says something and ten say something different, the ten would, very likely, be right. I have about 50 English Bibles that I compare, and I find there are no real errors in God’s word. The problem is not with the Bible, but with people who reason, really Dope Out answers, instead of searching the Bible for answers, Genesis 40:8, Proverbs 2:1-12, Matthew 6:8.
Anyone who questions the truth of the Bible, is questioning The Almighty God, Who has promised to keep His word true, from every generation, Psalms 12:6,7.
Almost all the things that people say are wrong, are just a lack of understanding all of the Scriptures. The Bible tells ONE story, so if something does not agree, look it up in other Bibles or Bible Dictionaries, or Encyclopedias. Do not make statements about the Bible being inaccurate, because in The Original Autographs, there were NO errors. Keep searching and if you are truely sincere and pray to God, He will help you to understand.
It is nothing but a cop out to blame your lack of understanding on the Bible!!! The only place to find real truth is in the Holy Scriptures! I consider myself to be a Biblist, or Biblicist, which means I form all my understanding of Doctrine from the Bible, I believe everyone should, and not listen to what someone says the Bible says!!!

 

[Twilight Hue]

shunyadragon,
It seems that people who do not want to acknowledge that God has the right to expect all people to obey Him, look for anything to try to prove the Bible wrong. They say, since it is wrong here, it is probably wrong in this place that requires me to do something.
There is no one on earth that can rightly be called a Christian, who questions the Holy Scriptures.
It has been found to be true that no human being can translate the Bible without making a mistake. Any mistakes that have been made over the years, by many translators and copyists are easily found by comparing one Bible with another. Each Bible will have mistakes, but not the same mistakes, so it is very easy to see which is accurate, by comparison. If one Bible says something and ten say something different, the ten would, very likely, be right. I have about 50 English Bibles that I compare, and I find there are no real errors in God’s word. The problem is not with the Bible, but with people who reason, really Dope Out answers, instead of searching the Bible for answers, Genesis 40:8, Proverbs 2:1-12, Matthew 6:8.
Anyone who questions the truth of the Bible, is questioning The Almighty God, Who has promised to keep His word true, from every generation, Psalms 12:6,7.
Almost all the things that people say are wrong, are just a lack of understanding all of the Scriptures. The Bible tells ONE story, so if something does not agree, look it up in other Bibles or Bible Dictionaries, or Encyclopedias. Do not make statements about the Bible being inaccurate, because in The Original Autographs, there were NO errors. Keep searching and if you are truely sincere and pray to God, He will help you to understand.
It is nothing but a cop out to blame your lack of understanding on the Bible!!! The only place to find real truth is in the Holy Scriptures! I consider myself to be a Biblist, or Biblicist, which means I form all my understanding of Doctrine from the Bible, I believe everyone should, and not listen to what someone says the Bible says!!!

That pretty much throws inspiration or inspired works out of the window . ;0)

How everybody is confused and conflicted about their very own book, can't be Inspired then, much less directed by a God to accurately preserve for generations !

Besides the original works of the Bible never survived whatsoever . They simply don't exist except for copies made after copies. You're looking at a book literally made after the facts for which the accounts are vauge or spurious at best.

 

[shunyadragon]

That pretty much throws inspiration or inspired works out of the window . ;0)

How everybody is confused and conflicted about their very own book, can't be Inspired then, much less directed by a God to accurately preserve for generations !

Besides the original works of the Bible never survived whatsoever . They simply don't exist except for copies made after copies. You're looking at a book literally made after the facts for which the accounts are vauge or spurious at best.

Actually some of the material found in Babylonian, Sumarian, Canaanite and Ugarite tablets may be considered original works, but many if not most Christians will not accept this,

 

[shunyadragon]

shunyadragon,
It seems that people who do not want to acknowledge that God has the right to expect all people to obey Him, look for anything to try to prove the Bible wrong. They say, since it is wrong here, it is probably wrong in this place that requires me to do something.
There is no one on earth that can rightly be called a Christian, who questions the Holy Scriptures.
It has been found to be true that no human being can translate the Bible without making a mistake. Any mistakes that have been made over the years, by many translators and copyists are easily found by comparing one Bible with another. Each Bible will have mistakes, but not the same mistakes, so it is very easy to see which is accurate, by comparison. If one Bible says something and ten say something different, the ten would, very likely, be right. I have about 50 English Bibles that I compare, and I find there are no real errors in God’s word. The problem is not with the Bible, but with people who reason, really Dope Out answers, instead of searching the Bible for answers, Genesis 40:8, Proverbs 2:1-12, Matthew 6:8.
Anyone who questions the truth of the Bible, is questioning The Almighty God, Who has promised to keep His word true, from every generation, Psalms 12:6,7.
Almost all the things that people say are wrong, are just a lack of understanding all of the Scriptures. The Bible tells ONE story, so if something does not agree, look it up in other Bibles or Bible Dictionaries, or Encyclopedias. Do not make statements about the Bible being inaccurate, because in The Original Autographs, there were NO errors. Keep searching and if you are truely sincere and pray to God, He will help you to understand.
It is nothing but a cop out to blame your lack of understanding on the Bible!!! The only place to find real truth is in the Holy Scriptures! I consider myself to be a Biblist, or Biblicist, which means I form all my understanding of Doctrine from the Bible, I believe everyone should, and not listen to what someone says the Bible says!!!

Your neglecting the factual archaelogical and textual history of the Bible based on the objective evidence. Also, you are neglecting the many interpretations within Christianity that claim there interpretation is correct and others are wrong.

Your asserting that everyone must blindly believe as you do or else, which is a problem.

As illustrated; Noah's Ark is a huge contradiction.

 

[David T]

Paradoxes perhaps, but what contradictions and inconsistencies are you thinking of?

.

You are contradicting yourself. You point out that the bible has contradictions. I said yes if course nature is filled with contradictions why is that and you asked me to point them out. That itself is a contradiction.


Or, Are you insisting that the bible magically exists independent from nature? Thats Noahs ark in kentucky logic. Which brings me back to my original question Does human logic determine nature or is nature determining human logic? Because human logic is absolutely not independent from nature although it loves to pretend it is! Dealing with 20,000 year old stories in modern terms is very humorous. Like a smart dumb which is a contradiction.

 

[PruePhillip]

Noah's Ark is a huge contradiction.

Why is that?

 

[shunyadragon]

Why is that?

It is an impossible construction for a sea worthy craft.