Does the Bible mention Islam?

[Dawnofhope]

To answer the Thread ( Does the bible mention Islam)
Yes it does in the book of Revelation. But however Islam will not like what Christ Jesus has revealed about Islam.

I'm a Baha'i, not a Muslim. Although I believe Muhammad to be a Messenger of G-d, Islam has become totally corrupt. A Baha'i exegesis of the book of Revelation does not paint a pretty picture of Islam either.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

Arianism was threatening the create a schism in the Christian church. It was an attempt to eradicate Arius's influence and to unify the church by providing answers to the questions that had been troubling many of the early Christians.

Arianism - Wikipedia

When the emperor Constantine converted to Christianity He made his business to preside over the first council of Nidea in 325 AD.

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia

But why would they invent a trinity where Jesus Christ is God as well? Even more weirder, they say the Holy Spirit is the second in this Trinity... The Holy Spirit is Gods Spirit, why are they even seeing that as something in the Trinity..

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you have proof for this?

In case it hasn't been debated yet... both Islam and Baha'is claim that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the one taken to be sacrificed. One Baha'i said that this was probably done by a scribe, either on purpose or by accident. But, if multiple scribes were making copies from multiple older copies, I don't see how one scribe making this mistake could take hold and effect all future copies? If, it ever was the "original" story that it was Ishmael, then it would have to be a change made by all scribes at the same time. And, all of the older copies would have had to be destroyed at the same time.

So I have never heard a sensible argument made by Baha'is for this belief that a scribe could have done this. But, I do see a very good reason why Islam and the Baha'i Faith would want this change. It elevates the importance of Ishmael and downgrades the importance of Isaac. But, where is the proof? When and why would Jews made this change... and gotten away with it? If, it is true Jews did this, then Judaism is guilty of manipulating the Holy Scriptures. But, if Islam and the Baha'is are wrong about this, then what?

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

I case it hasn't been debated yet... both Islam and Baha'is claim that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the one taken to be sacrificed. One Baha'i said that this was probably done by a scribe, either on purpose or by accident. But, if multiple scribes were making copies from multiple older copies, I don't see how one scribe making this mistake could take hold and effect all future copies? If, it ever was the "original" story that it was Ishmael, then it would have to be a change made by all scribes at the same time. And, all of the older copies would have had to be destroyed at the same time.

So I have never heard a sensible argument made by Baha'is for this belief that a scribe could have done this. But, I do see a very good reason why Islam and the Baha'i Faith would want this change. It elevates the importance of Ishmael and downgrades the importance of Isaac. But, where is the proof? When and why would Jews made this change... and gotten away with it? If, it is true Jews did this, then Judaism is guilty of manipulating the Holy Scriptures. But, if Islam and the Baha'is are wrong about this, then what?

The Quran doesn't mention the name of the sacrificed son of Abraham. And the Quran says that the Tora and Gospel are inspired by God. In the Tora and Gospel the name of the sacrificed son is mentioned, and it is Isaac.

It also makes sense that it is Isaac, because Jesus Christ is from the line of Isaac, and Jesus Christ is the Lamb that Sacrificed himself for humanity.

Can you also tell me the verse from the Bahai scripture that says that it was not Isaac?

And this whole anti-Bible movement is not from the Quran, because the Quran actually told us to uphold the Tora and the Gospel and Judge with the Gospel. The anti-Bible movement is a political sectarian movement, and not from the Quran. It's sad how the Arabs in general are being mislead by their 'scholars', because i learned to understand the Quran better after reading the Tora and Gospel.

 

[CG Didymus]

Judaism is already like 4k +/- years old. We don't know if the people could read at that time, and we also do not know if they were possible to keep copying the Revelations.

The question refers to the Baha'i interpretation of the "Three Woes". The first Woe is supposed to be Muhammad. Muhammad is later said to be one of the Two Witnesses in Revelation. Do you have any theories from Islam on the interpretation of these verses? Does Islam say that these refer to Muhammad?

Of course, who could read back then? People, even now, have to trust scribes and even the people that wrote the original story. How do we know who wrote them. Believers put their trust that it was essentially God that wrote them, as if God dictated them to a human... who wrote them down, and other humans perfectly copied those original words. Although affirming both Judaism and Christianity, Baha'is question the authenticity of some of the writings from those religions. Yet, they use those writings to prove their legitimacy. Does Islam take the same stance?

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

The question refers to the Baha'i interpretation of the "Three Woes". The first Woe is supposed to be Muhammad. Muhammad is later said to be one of the Two Witnesses in Revelation. Do you have any theories from Islam on the interpretation of these verses? Does Islam say that these refer to Muhammad?

Of course, who could read back then? People, even now, have to trust scribes and even the people that wrote the original story. How do we know who wrote them. Believers put their trust that it was essentially God that wrote them, as if God dictated them to a human... who wrote them down, and other humans perfectly copied those original words. Although affirming both Judaism and Christianity, Baha'is question the authenticity of some of the writings from those religions. Yet, they use those writings to prove their legitimacy. Does Islam take the same stance?

What the..., the two witnesses are not Muhammad. Why do people fall for such a false doctrine. The Quran doesn't mention the two witnesses..

And further about the other topic:

An English translation of the Quran - 5:47 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked. 5:68 Say: "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.

But the majority of the Arabs are mislead about the Previous Scriptures, and ditch them because their 'scholars' tell them to do so.


An English translation of the Quran - 6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Quran doesn't mention the name of the sacrificed son of Abraham. And the Quran says that the Tora and Gospel are inspired by God. In the Tora and Gospel the name of the sacrificed son is mentioned, and it is Isaac.

It also makes sense that it is Isaac, because Jesus Christ is from the line of Isaac, and Jesus Christ is the Lamb that Sacrificed himself for humanity.

Can you also tell me the verse from the Bahai scripture that says that it was not Isaac?

And this whole anti-Bible movement is not from the Quran, because the Quran actually told us to uphold the Tora and the Gospel and Judge with the Gospel. The anti-Bible movement is a political sectarian movement, and not from the Quran. It's sad how the Arabs in general are being mislead by their 'scholars', because i learned to understand the Quran better after reading the Tora and Gospel.

Adrian should be able to tell us where it is in their writings. I believe it's been him that I've been questioning about this. But, I was under the impression from how he argued the point that it was mentioned in the Quran. So thanks for correcting that assumption. If the Baha'i in fact do believe that it was Ishmael, then they are standing alone in this accusation that the Jews changed the verses to make Isaac the one to be sacrificed.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

Adrian should be able to tell us where it is in their writings. I believe it's been him that I've been questioning about this. But, I was under the impression from how he argued the point that it was mentioned in the Quran. So thanks for correcting that assumption. If the Baha'i in fact do believe that it was Ishmael, then they are standing alone in this accusation that the Jews changed the verses to make Isaac the one to be sacrificed.

Nah the Quran doesn't mention the name of the sacrificed son of Abraham. Even early sectarians in 'Islam' used to believe that it was Isaac. It's just these later denominations that are lying about Isaac.

The Tora and Gospel give the name, i have checked it myself in Greek and Hebrew. And the Quran doesn't mention the name, so it's Isaac. Case closed.

Now i want to know if it's written in the book of the Bahai's. Im am very curious. I want to know if its in the kitab al-aqdas. What denominations or people doesn't matter if the book doesn't say it.

I did a quick search in the Kitab al-Aqdas of the Bahais and i couldn't find the name of Ishmael even once? Are you talking about the Bayan or the Kitab al-Aqdas?

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

I'm a Baha'i, not a Muslim. Although I believe Muhammad to be a Messenger of G-d, Islam has become totally corrupt. A Baha'i exegesis of the book of Revelation does not paint a pretty picture of Islam either.

Does the Bayan or the Kitab al-Aqdas teach that Ishmael was the sacrificed son of Abraham?

 

[CG Didymus]

What the..., the two witnesses are not Muhammad. Why do people fall for such a false doctrine. The Quran doesn't mention the two witnesses..

And further about the other topic:

An English translation of the Quran - 5:47 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked. 5:68 Say: "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.

But the majority of the Arabs are mislead about the Previous Scriptures, and ditch them because their 'scholars' tell them to do so.


An English translation of the Quran - 6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

Why do people fall for these kinds of interpretations? That's easy. The Baha'i Faith had many things that sound like they are the new truth and revelation from God. Now, the problem is... how to prove it? They need to convince people that their prophet has fulfilled the prophecies from, not only Christianity, but from all the other major religions. But, if a person has already come to believe in the basic teachings of the Baha'i Faith, it is easy for them to keep on believing the deeper doctrines, beliefs, and interpretations of the Baha'i Faith.

But, I'm sure you know, Christians have done this with the Trinity and other Christian doctrines. Once a person has come to believe in Jesus as Savior, then in many Christian Churches, the next step is to teach the new believer how the Bible teaches that Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are God. For them, it seems like a perfectly logical conclusion. And, one of the most important Christian doctrines there is.

 

[CG Didymus]

Nah the Quran doesn't mention the name of the sacrificed son of Abraham. Even early sectarians in 'Islam' used to believe that it was Isaac. It's just these later denominations that are lying about Isaac.

The Tora and Gospel give the name, i have checked it myself in Greek and Hebrew. And the Quran doesn't mention the name, so it's Isaac. Case closed.

Now i want to know if it's written in the book of the Bahai's. Im am very curious. I want to know if its in the kitab al-aqdas. What denominations or people doesn't matter if the book doesn't say it.

I did a quick search in the Kitab al-Aqdas of the Bahais and i couldn't find the name of Ishmael even once? Are you talking about the Bayan or the Kitab al-Aqdas?

If Adrian doesn't chime in, I'll research it.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

If Adrian doesn't chime in, I'll research it.

Lol, indeed do your own research. One advice brother, never trust someones word if you haven't read the source for yourself. Also read or check it in the original language, since translators sometimes change words or put names between brackets when there aren't names mentioned at all.

I already checked the Greek Gospel, and Hebrew Tora. And the Arabic Quran. And the Quran doesn't mention the name of the sacrificed son. But the Gospel and Tora do. So it is Isaac, and not Ishmael.

Take what people say for a grain of salt and do your own research. Also watch out for Adrian since he is influencing you with false doctrines.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

Why do people fall for these kinds of interpretations? That's easy. The Baha'i Faith had many things that sound like they are the new truth and revelation from God. Now, the problem is... how to prove it? They need to convince people that their prophet has fulfilled the prophecies from, not only Christianity, but from all the other major religions. But, if a person has already come to believe in the basic teachings of the Baha'i Faith, it is easy for them to keep on believing the deeper doctrines, beliefs, and interpretations of the Baha'i Faith.

But, I'm sure you know, Christians have done this with the Trinity and other Christian doctrines. Once a person has come to believe in Jesus as Savior, then in many Christian Churches, the next step is to teach the new believer how the Bible teaches that Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are God. For them, it seems like a perfectly logical conclusion. And, one of the most important Christian doctrines there is.

Yeah, i still have my doubts about the Bahai faith and its origins from the Bab faith. It's heavily influenced by the Shia denomination of 'Islaam', and i see the Shia as a sect, i have no doubts about that. So i think the Bahai and Bab are maybe just to promote the Shia version of 'Islaam'.

I am no Sunni either. I do not follow any denominations anymore. I read the Gospel, Tora and Quran. And i also stopped going to Churches, Mosques and Synagogues, it's one big political mess, so much things which they do in their buildings which contradict 'their' Books. Sunnis, Catholics, Rabbis, they are all the same for me, and i think they hijacked the Scriptures for personal gains.

For example in Christianity they invented the trinity, in Islaam they invented the narrations, in Judaism they invented the talmud. Etc.

Anyways, it's their 'power'. The power of the masses is so powerful. People do not study, and most of the people can't read or write in the original language of the Scriptures. That's why they fall for translation errors/fabrications.

For example, the majority of Arabs do not even know how to read the Quran. They are uneducated. Also their 'scholars' teach in the mosques to follow only their interpretation. They literally say that you can't understand the Quran.
This was also the case in Christianity before the reformations here in Europe. They were telling them not to read, and they also couldn't read etc. all they had to do was being mislead every week when going to their churches.

 

[CG Didymus]

A better argument, I think, would have been to address:

1. How something can be both eternal and abrogated
2. How something can be both changeless and changed
3. How you can accept as true any work that suggests the opposite of a principle already established by G-d.

Because Baha'is say that God brings new "social" laws along with His changeless "eternal" laws with each new messenger, I argue with them that if God had a temporary law that said that people breaking certain laws should be stoned to death, then I'd hate to have been that last person to get stoned for a law that God intended to change at some point.

But, for Jews, I don't suppose that anybody has gotten stoned to death for a long, long time, so hasn't the exact or literal requirements in the Law been changed and made more liberal?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But why would they invent a trinity where Jesus Christ is God as well? Even more weirder, they say the Holy Spirit is the second in this Trinity... The Holy Spirit is Gods Spirit, why are they even seeing that as something in the Trinity..

The connection between God and His Messengers has only been given in great detail by Baha'u'llah in this age. Thus when we look towards Christ we see God reflected in Christ, the Attributes not the Essence.

It would be off topic for this thread, anither OP would be good.

Basically the Holy Spirit is what all the Messengers are born of, this is what the story of the virgin borth is imparting to us.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Lol, indeed do your own research. One advice brother, never trust someones word if you haven't read the source for yourself. Also read or check it in the original language, since translators sometimes change words or put names between brackets when there aren't names mentioned at all.

I already checked the Greek Gospel, and Hebrew Tora. And the Arabic Quran. And the Quran doesn't mention the name of the sacrificed son. But the Gospel and Tora do. So it is Isaac, and not Ishmael.

Take what people say for a grain of salt and do your own research. Also watch out for Adrian since he is influencing you with false doctrines.

I take it all with a lot of salt... and a little pepper too. But, as I recall, Adrian gave a quote on this. The research would be to find that quote. I plan to look to Abdul Baha's "Some Answered Questions" first, since that has a lot of Baha'i interpretations of Revelation also.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What the..., the two witnesses are not Muhammad. Why do people fall for such a false doctrine. The Quran doesn't mention the two witnesses..

And further about the other topic:

An English translation of the Quran - 5:47 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked. 5:68 Say: "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.

But the majority of the Arabs are mislead about the Previous Scriptures, and ditch them because their 'scholars' tell them to do so.


An English translation of the Quran - 6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

In Quran, Muhammad and Ali are referred as witness.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

Because Baha'is say that God brings new "social" laws along with His changeless "eternal" laws with each new messenger, I argue with them that if God had a temporary law that said that people breaking certain laws should be stoned to death, then I'd hate to have been that last person to get stoned for a law that God intended to change at some point.

But, for Jews, I don't suppose that anybody has gotten stoned to death for a long, long time, so hasn't the exact or literal requirements in the Law been changed and made more liberal?

First of all, when Scripture is revealed, it's mainly for the Nation it's revealed to. But if people from other Nations want to follow it, then that's a good thing. If someone from another Nation claims to be a Messenger of God, and starts teaching other Nations to stop following their Laws, then you should ask yourself if it's really a Messenger of God or just an agent of the state with a political/religious agenda.

I think the stoning etc. isn't happening as much anymore because they are afraid of how other Nations will view them. If they start stoning, and in the Quran as an example, start cutting the hand of the chief, then other Nations will view them as barbaric etc.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

In Quran, Muhammad and Ali are referred as witness.

No they are not. The name Ali isn't even mentioned in the Quran. And the two witnesses of Revelation are not mentioned in the Quran.

You should read the Quran and the Gospel some more, or learn Arabic and Greek if you are reading bad translations.
The two witnesses will be raised from the death, and the whole world will witness that etc. and nothing at all is mentioned in the Quran about Muhammad being raised from the death, nor is there anything mentioned about the two witnesses in the Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No they are not. The name of Ali isn't even mentioned in the Quran.

Some of the Quran verses are in the form of allusions, and to understand them, Muslims are supposed to learn its interpretations from those who Are well-grounded in knowledge, and in Islamic traditions, Muhammad and the Shia Imams are the well-grounded in knowledge. They interpreted some verses of Quran as reference to Ali, and in one of those verses, it states He is sufficient as a witness. In the traditions, that verse is about Ali, who is Witness.