Does the Bible mention Islam?

[Faithofchristian]

So do you claim to be a prophet, that is if you are not a man like the rest of us?

Regards Tony

Do tell, show where I said I'm prophet.
Maybe you need to read again what I said.

In everything that I posted, never said or claim to be a prophet.

It Seems you have hard time understanding simple English.

 

[Dawnofhope]

1) It is wholly inappropriate for a religious person to insult another religious person with the demeaning "you don't speak English good, do you"? Stop it.

I have no interest or intent at insulting or demeaning anyone. I am interested in having constructive conversations with peoples of different faiths about the OP question. If I have inadvertently made an offensive remark I unreservedly apologise.

2) I'm more than aware, already, of the English definition of blasphemy. The Bible was not written in English. Biblical blasphemy is when a person says they are God.

I'm aware that Jesus spoke in Aramaic, the New Testament was written in Koine Greek, later translated into Latin and eventually translated into English just over 400 years ago. Most participants in this forum rely on good quality English translations. In the context of a general debate we rely on the common use of English words. If you feel the available biblical translations are inadequate its up to you to prove it. There are many translations available. Unless you can provide examples of translations that support for statement, you are on shaky ground claiming you know better than all those who have translated the bible to date.

3) HOW does John 3 distinguish Jesus? Hebrews says another distinction, for example, He is above all angels and humans... how?

The question is answered by reference to Hebrews 1:1-5. Jesus is the 'Son of God' exalted above all humans and the angels.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

4) The son of man of Daniel 7 returns at the end of Daniel to judge all mankind. Jesus was saying He was God, Messiah and judge of the Pharisees.

I presume you refer to Daniel 7:13-14 ?

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

I agree the verse refers to Jesus. Note that he is given dominion and glory. Who has given Him the dominion and glory? God of course. Once again, Jesus is given the authority by His Father in heaven.

The Gospel of John makes this clear;

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
John 5:30-31

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
John 5:19-20

 

[Dawnofhope]

What is spiritual blindnes, those who believe in the false prophets Muhammad and Baha'ullah, those are in Spiritual Blindness.

Seeing how Muhammad does not believe that Christ Jesus is God, Nor that God came down here in the likeness of man.

Nor does Muhammad believe that Jesus as God died on the cross for the sin of the world, That is Spiritual Blindness. Of not knowing who Christ Jesus is.
For Christ Jesus is God in the body of flesh and blood.
To denounce this, are in Spiritual Blindness.

You have effectively lost any credibility then. Instead of examining the facts you simple resort to statements of faith. You can not prove Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are false prophets. You are essentially saying "I'm right and your wrong".

 

[Dawnofhope]

Where is the Baha'i commentary that talks about the Three Woes? Was that in SAQ or somewhere else?

That's right.

'The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of `Abdull'áh peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One.'

SAQ 55-56
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I and others like me, do not follow man's teachings, Seeing how Christ Jesus himself condemned the teachings of man's. In Matthew 15:7-9.

Do tell, show where I said I'm prophet.
Maybe you need to read again what I said.

In everything that I posted, never said or claim to be a prophet.

It Seems you have hard time understanding simple English.

Well it is you that is saying your interpretation is not as a man.

Thats ok, as I will leave you with this now. Stay well, stay happy and have a great life.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithofchristian]

You have effectively lost any credibility then. Instead of examining the facts you simple resort to statements of faith. You can not prove Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are false prophets. You are essentially saying "I'm right and your wrong".

What facts, I don't have to prove Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are false Prophets, Christ Jesus already did in his own words.

It is known that Muhammad live in the desert, which is now called the Arabian desert.
Christ Jesus points out how false Christ's and false prophets, in the desert.

Matthew 24:24-26---"
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not"

Muhammad is such prophet that did arise, wherefore if they say he is in the desert go not forth, he is false prophet in the desert.

Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners"

But Muhammad no obey the gospels, Muhammad sinner, no rule according to gospels, Muhammad sinner.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So even if it specifically says "Jesus", it is not Jesus coming back but the "Christ" Spirit. Then, I blame God for being ambiguous. Why would it have been all that difficult for Jesus to make that clear that he is not the "Lord of Lords" or "King of Kings", that it would be another person but the same spirit?

For one pure in heart it is easy. Prophecy is deliberately cryptic to enable the faithful to be distinguished from the Faithless. Same deal with the parables which Jesus used.

Matthew 13:10-17

Its a test from God.

In the way God "inspired" the NT to be written, that is what has caused all the misinterpretations and confusion. Or, God didn't truly inspire the writers, they did it on their own. They were the ones that went over the top in their stories of God speaking, of demons possessing people, of the need of a savior from inherited sin from Adam, of the resurrections of Jesus and the others. Or, there is the Baha'is explanation that God did inspire them. That God told them to write symbolic stories of resurrections, demons, and healings. Is that really what Baha's believe?

The Bible is the inspired word of God. It is not simply a history story. Its is filled with hidden spiritual meanings for those with spiritual insight and purity of heart to fathom. Those who take it all literally are spiritually blind. Those who insist on literalism are deprived of the 'Spirit of Christ' despite their claims to the contrary.

 

[Faithofchristian]

That's right.

'The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of `Abdull'áh peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One.'

SAQ 55-56
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

So you want people to believe, the first Woe trumpet is Muhammad, so your saying that Muhammad is a trumpet.

How you come by that is anyones guess
Muhammad a trumpet.

Well that shows what happens when people listen to man's teachings and not the teachings of Gods.

Baha'u'llah has no clue or idea what the Three woe trumpets are or represents.

Then you wonder why Baha'u'llah and Muhammad are false Prophets.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Well it is you that is saying your interpretation is not as a man.

Thats ok, as I will leave you with this now. Stay well, stay happy and have a great life.

Regards Tony

Maybe you should get some understanding on English language.
I said man's teachings are not God's teachings.
I said I do not follow man's teachings.
I said I follow only the teachings of God.

It seems your having a hard time understanding English language

 

[Dawnofhope]

What facts, I don't have to prove Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are false Prophets, Christ Jesus already did in his own words.

It is known that Muhammad live in the desert, which is now called the Arabian desert.
Christ Jesus points out how false Christ's and false prophets, in the desert.

Matthew 24:24-26---"
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not"

Muhammad is such prophet that did arise, wherefore if they say he is in the desert go not forth, he is false prophet in the desert.

Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners"

But Muhammad no obey the gospels, Muhammad sinner, no rule according to gospels, Muhammad sinner.

That was post no. 666 on this thread! Should I see it as a sign of the Satan within you?

t is imperative that we should renounce our own particular prejudices and superstitions if we earnestly desire to seek the truth. Unless we make a distinction in our minds between dogma, superstition and prejudice on the one hand, and truth on the other, we cannot succeed. When we are in earnest in our search for anything we look for it everywhere. This principle we must carry out in our search for truth.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God.
Bahá’u’lláh

The truth shall set you free.
John 8:32

All the best

 

[Dale]

CONCEPT OF GOD IN MAJOR RELIGIONS | LECTURE + Q & A | DR ZAKIR NAIK english version

Muhammad in the Hebrew dictionary link, if it's taken out, search for a older version, people seem to change history and religious facts, to hide and cover up the truth, to save their faiths.

English-Hebrew Hebrew-English Dictionary
https://www.amazon.com/English-Hebrew-Hebrew-English-Dictionary-Ehud-Ben-Yehuda/dp/0671472119

More on Muhammad in the Bible

Deuteronomy chapter 33 and Habakkuk the Holy One from Paran

How Deuteronomy Foretells the Coming of Muhammad ﷺ

The desert of Paran often mistranslated as wilderness of Paran the Hebrew word used can also be translated as desert, and everyone knows that the middle east isn't a wilderness, but a desert.

The wilderness of Paran is where Ishmael settled: Genesis 21:21 and of course we know that Ishmael settled in modern north Saudi Arabia on the east side of the Arabah valley, it's obvious that wilderness is mistranslated, because Arabia isn't a wilderness but a desert, but a wilderness can mean a desert, but when people use wilderness it usually means a forest, like and when people use the term a desert, it's Arabia this is how people play with words.

The correct translation should be the desert, so people don't get confused and not wilderness.
Gen 21:14 https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h4057

And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the desert H4057 of Beersheba.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
The Prophecy of Habakkuk
God came from Teman Arabia meaning Gods guidance shined from Arabia and the Holy one came from Paran Mecca, Gods messenger prophet Muhammad came from Paran.

The Prophecy of Habakkuk

Also Tema and Teman both mean south, but Tema in the Bible is Arabia, Tema according to the encyclopedia of biblical facts say Tema is south country sun burnt a son of Ishmael Genesis 25:15 The place his descendants dwell was also called Tema Job 6:19 It was located in Arabia. encyclopedia of the Bible page 743 Tema.

A standard Bible dictionary, designed as a comprehensive guide to the Scriptures, embracing their languages, literature, history, biography, manners and customs, and their theology

Arabia in the New Testament: Nabatean Arabia Petrea in 36 AD
Mt. Sinai in Arabia: First century Arabia was the Nabatean Kingdom at Petra

Teman (Hebrew: תימן ), was the name of an Edomite clan and of its eponym, according to the Bible and an ancient biblical town of Arabia Petraea.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...p/0840719744&usg=AOvVaw2alNWBSVB0836qdasPslMK

Teman meaning south. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...m/name/teman&usg=AOvVaw0NazeAPTXdUTKNC3sFK69C

Meaning & History. Means "right hand" or "south" in Hebrew



Paran Arabia
The wilderness of Paran: The Great and Terrible wilderness from which God dawned upon Mt. Sinai! (Deut 1:19)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...p/0840719744&usg=AOvVaw2alNWBSVB0836qdasPslMK
Introduction:

1. We can prove from the Bible that Mt. Sinai is in Arabia, not the wilderness of Egypt (Sinai Peninsula).
   
   The Exodus Route: Mt. Sinai at Mt. Lawz
   
   Paran in the Bible is Mecca today:
   Paran in the Bible is Mecca today - See the Archeological discoveries that prove Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia.

The Late Dr. Charles Beke's Discoveries of Sinai in Arabia and of Midian with Portrait, Geological, Botanical, and Conchological Reports, Plans, Map, and Thirteen Wood Engravings

1. The prophet from Paran Mecca is Muhammad and he will come with ten thousand saints and bring a fiery law. Isaiah 42 confirms this, because the people of Kedar Ishmael from Arabia will rejoice and sing a song for the lord, the call to prayer, why is the Bible mentioning Kedar the Arabs with a knew Torah or Law and the servant of God? because this is Muhammad, everything is connected.
2. Why is the Children of Ishmael singing to the lord when according to the Christians they are hated by God, when they mistranslated Ishmael will be a donkey and against his brethren, this isn't the correct translation, because Allah is bringing them a prophet and a covenant, a new Law according to Isaiah chapter 42.

Isaiah 42 describes Muhammad
Prophet Muhammad was foretold in Isaiah 42 in the Bible.

Kedar Kedar Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

More evidence of Paran being in Arabia
Locating Paran

1. The Late Dr. Charles Beke's Discoveries of Sinai in Arabia and of Midian ...
   By Charles Tilstone Beke
2. 

 

[Dale]

There's nothing that you have said, that I haven't heard before.

Jesus in bible proves Muhammad to be false prophet.


Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners"

Muhammad tell others to obye gospels, but Muhammad not obey gospels.
So Muhammad is sinner, not obey gospels.

Muhammad say, Allah best deceiver, Allah deceive muhammah.

Muhammad could not read or write, but yet Muhammad want people to believe he is prophet, silly wife woman write for Muhammad, but how muhammad know what wife write, Muhammad no read or write, so how muhammad know what wife write.

I will answer every one of your complaints and misunderstandings

first Allah is the best deceiver a misunderstanding and a actual lie, some Christians use to denounce Islam.

https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/24/response-to-critics-claim-allah-is-a-deceiver-quran-354/

I didn't know that God stopping people from killing an innocent man in Jesus is evil, do Christians even read the context anymore, the Hebrews plotted to kill an innocent man called Jesus and God plotted to save Jesus and stopped them from killing an innocent man, how is this evil in any way possible ? God foiled their plans of killing an innocent man because he's the best at planning things and the Christians seem to think this is some evil thing.

A quick example from the Bible Pharaoh plotted to kill the Israelite's and Moses while chasing them across the red sea, but God plotted and planned to drown The Egyptian"s and Pharaoh and Gods plan was better then Pharaoh because God drowned Pharaoh and his army in the sea.

How is this not exactly like the Qur'an and Allah planning and plotting to save Jesus while the Hebrews are plotting and planning to kill him, just like Pharaoh and Moses ?

Qur'an lexicon MAKR Allah Planning for a good purpose, and Evil people Plotting or planning evil intent, simple to understand using logic and common sense.

Bible, The God of the Bible actually deceived people ? 2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie Strong's Concordance https://biblehub.com/greek/4106.htm plané Phonetic Spelling: (plan'-ay) Definition: a wandering Usage: a wandering; fig: deceit, delusion, error, sin. HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 4106 plánē (a feminine noun derived from 4105 /planáō) – deviant behavior; a departure from what God says is true; an error (deception) which results in wandering (roaming into sin). See 4105 (planaō).

Jeremiah 4:10 Then I said, “O Sovereign LORD, the people have been deceived by what you said, for you promised peace for Jerusalem. But the sword is held at their throats!”

Of relevance here is the fact that unlike the two Quranic verses–which show God stopping people from killing, by Planning for a good purpose by stopping murderers–the Biblical verse in which God deceives involves him tricking a population into thinking they would have “peace” when in fact “the sword is held at their throats!”

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/jeremiah/4-10.htm https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5378.htm

Strong's Concordance nasha: to beguile, deceive Original Word: נָשָׁא Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: nasha Phonetic Spelling: (naw-shaw') Definition: to beguile, deceive NAS Exhaustive Concordance Word Origin a prim. root Definition to beguile, deceive NASB Translation come deceitfully (1), deceive (8), deceived (3), deluded (1), utterly deceived (1).

Qur'an lexicon MAKR Allah Planning for a good purpose, Evil people Plotting or planning evil intent, simple to understand using logic and common sense.

Glossary Of Islamic Terms: English–Arabic – Anwer Mahmoud Zanaty: MAKR Has two meanings: 1. Plotting or planning evil intent. 2.

Planning for a good purpose: ‘Wa Makaru wa Makara Allah wa’LLahu Khairul Makereen’ (Surah Aali Imran 3:54.

They planned and Allah planned and Allah is the best of planners’. Makara = they plotted. Makara = He planned. Makkar = plotter. Makereen = plotters. [4]

The meaning of the Noble Qur’an – Abdullah Yusuf Ali 6078: Makara is applied both to plotting with an evil purpose and planning with a good purpose. Cf. 3:54, and 0. 392

‘And the unbelievers plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.’ [5]

The Message of The Quran – Muhammad Asad 44 Lit., they schemed’ – here referring to those among the Jews who refused to acknowledge Jesus as a prophet and tried to destroy him. [6]


Obviously God in the Bible wouldn't do this, so it's a misunderstanding, or it's an addition.

Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?' But in fact, the lying pen of the scribes has produced a deception.
Jeremiah 8:8
How can we say we are wise and the Torah is with us when the scribes are writing lies with their pens.

Hebrew Lexicon
Jeremiah 8:8 Lexicon: "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

If your Bible hasn't been changed, then why is the Torah saying the Laws and prophetic scriptures of the prophets have lies because the scribes are changing certain verses using their pens.

The New Testament is even worse with it's changes and additions and anonymous writers.

Moses confirms corruption of the scriptures.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 31

29For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.



Lexicon proof of Deuteronomy 31:29
Deuteronomy 31:29 Lexicon: "For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands."

Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech)

The next one will be answered.

 

[Dale]

There's nothing that you have said, that I haven't heard before.

Jesus in bible proves Muhammad to be false prophet.


Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners"

Muhammad tell others to obye gospels, but Muhammad not obey gospels.
So Muhammad is sinner, not obey gospels.

Muhammad say, Allah best deceiver, Allah deceive muhammah.

Muhammad could not read or write, but yet Muhammad want people to believe he is prophet, silly wife woman write for Muhammad, but how muhammad know what wife write, Muhammad no read or write, so how muhammad know what wife write.

Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners"

Muhammad tell others to obye gospels, but Muhammad not obey gospels.
So Muhammad is sinner, not obey gospels.

How is Allah telling the Christians and Jews to rule in accordance with the Bible that is with them according to Noble Verse 7:157 when these scriptures were corrupted by the followers of the religion and could not be found in their true form?

The Noble Quran came to CONFIRM the Truth that exists in the Bible. Allah Almighty NEVER claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine. Islam is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth from falsehood and corruption in the Bible.

The Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it. Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded.

Allah Almighty commanded the Jews and Christians to rule among themselves according to the Bible only in the social and domestic disputes. This was when Islam was partial and its Laws were not yet complete. The following Hadith further proves this:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: "The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse.

Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?"

They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there.

They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."

(Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 829)"

But after Islam became complete, there was no reason for them to continue following the Bible: ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah).

This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....(The Noble Quran, 5:3)"

The whole Bible to both the Noble Quran and the Bible itself is corrupted, and Jews, Christians and Muslims must follow the Noble Quran and Islam to get accurate Justice.

Here is what Noble Verse 7:157 states: "Those who follow the Messenger [Muhammad], the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good and prohibits them from what is bad; He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him- it is they who will prosper."

We Muslims believe that Allah Almighty did send the Torah (Old Testament or the Law) to the Jews, but they then corrupted this Holy Message.

"We (Allah) certainly gave the Book To Moses, but differences arose therein: had it not been That a Word had gone forth Before from thy Lord, the matter Would have been decided Between them: but they Are in suspicious doubt Concerning it. (The Noble Quran, 11:110)"

The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time.

But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message. Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems.

They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe. That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them.

A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out.

That is why "differences arose therein....." Allah Almighty promised hell to those Jews who caused the corruption of the Original Torah; "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"

Preface to the Revised Standard Version
(2nd ed., 1971)

Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation. The task was undertaken, by authority of the Church of England, in 1870. The English Revised Version of the Bible was published in 1881-1885; and the American Standard Version, its variant embodying the preferences of the American scholars associated in the work, was published in 1901.

Preface to the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (1971)


You Christians tell us Muslims the Qur'an is wrong about your scriptures being changed and your own scholars tell everyone this and you still claim this is a lie and the Qur'an is wrong and Muslims scratch are heads, thinking what's wrong with you.

You want the verses and chapters your scholars took out of your scriptures? because i can give you a link.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I will answer every one of your complaints and misunderstandings

first Allah is the best deceiver a misunderstanding and a actual lie, some Christians use to denounce Islam.

https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/24/response-to-critics-claim-allah-is-a-deceiver-quran-354/

I didn't know that God stopping people from killing an innocent man in Jesus is evil, do Christians even read the context anymore, the Hebrews plotted to kill an innocent man called Jesus and God plotted to save Jesus and stopped them from killing an innocent man, how is this evil in any way possible ? God foiled their plans of killing an innocent man because he's the best at planning things and the Christians seem to think this is some evil thing.

A quick example from the Bible Pharaoh plotted to kill the Israelite's and Moses while chasing them across the red sea, but God plotted and planned to drown The Egyptian"s and Pharaoh and Gods plan was better then Pharaoh because God drowned Pharaoh and his army in the sea.

How is this not exactly like the Qur'an and Allah planning and plotting to save Jesus while the Hebrews are plotting and planning to kill him, just like Pharaoh and Moses ?

Qur'an lexicon MAKR Allah Planning for a good purpose, and Evil people Plotting or planning evil intent, simple to understand using logic and common sense.

Bible, The God of the Bible actually deceived people ? 2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie Strong's Concordance https://biblehub.com/greek/4106.htm plané Phonetic Spelling: (plan'-ay) Definition: a wandering Usage: a wandering; fig: deceit, delusion, error, sin. HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 4106 plánē (a feminine noun derived from 4105 /planáō) – deviant behavior; a departure from what God says is true; an error (deception) which results in wandering (roaming into sin). See 4105 (planaō).

Jeremiah 4:10 Then I said, “O Sovereign LORD, the people have been deceived by what you said, for you promised peace for Jerusalem. But the sword is held at their throats!”

Of relevance here is the fact that unlike the two Quranic verses–which show God stopping people from killing, by Planning for a good purpose by stopping murderers–the Biblical verse in which God deceives involves him tricking a population into thinking they would have “peace” when in fact “the sword is held at their throats!”

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/jeremiah/4-10.htm https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5378.htm

Strong's Concordance nasha: to beguile, deceive Original Word: נָשָׁא Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: nasha Phonetic Spelling: (naw-shaw') Definition: to beguile, deceive NAS Exhaustive Concordance Word Origin a prim. root Definition to beguile, deceive NASB Translation come deceitfully (1), deceive (8), deceived (3), deluded (1), utterly deceived (1).

Qur'an lexicon MAKR Allah Planning for a good purpose, Evil people Plotting or planning evil intent, simple to understand using logic and common sense.

Glossary Of Islamic Terms: English–Arabic – Anwer Mahmoud Zanaty: MAKR Has two meanings: 1. Plotting or planning evil intent. 2.

Planning for a good purpose: ‘Wa Makaru wa Makara Allah wa’LLahu Khairul Makereen’ (Surah Aali Imran 3:54.

They planned and Allah planned and Allah is the best of planners’. Makara = they plotted. Makara = He planned. Makkar = plotter. Makereen = plotters. [4]

The meaning of the Noble Qur’an – Abdullah Yusuf Ali 6078: Makara is applied both to plotting with an evil purpose and planning with a good purpose. Cf. 3:54, and 0. 392

‘And the unbelievers plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.’ [5]

The Message of The Quran – Muhammad Asad 44 Lit., they schemed’ – here referring to those among the Jews who refused to acknowledge Jesus as a prophet and tried to destroy him. [6]


Obviously God in the Bible wouldn't do this, so it's a misunderstanding, or it's an addition.

Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?' But in fact, the lying pen of the scribes has produced a deception.
Jeremiah 8:8
How can we say we are wise and the Torah is with us when the scribes are writing lies with their pens.

Hebrew Lexicon
Jeremiah 8:8 Lexicon: "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

If your Bible hasn't been changed, then why is the Torah saying the Laws and prophetic scriptures of the prophets have lies because the scribes are changing certain verses using their pens.

The New Testament is even worse with it's changes and additions and anonymous writers.

Moses confirms corruption of the scriptures.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 31

29For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.



Lexicon proof of Deuteronomy 31:29
Deuteronomy 31:29 Lexicon: "For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands."

Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech)

The next one will be answered.

Seeing Muhammad didn't know, have you any idea who those scribes are that Prophet Jeremiah is speaking about.
( How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain)

Have you any idea who those scribes are?

As you say( first Allah is the best deceiver a misunderstanding and a actual lie, some Christians use to denounce Islam)

( But yet the Quran describes Allah as the best deceiver there is, a liar who is not above using the same evil and wicked schemes of his opponents.

For example, the Quran calls Allah a makr, in fact the best makr there is:

But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroowamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30)


There's no misunderstanding, When Muhammad say it, unless you say Muhammad lie.
Muhammad say Allah all powerful, but Muhammad couldn't read or write, Allah weak, couldn't help Muhammad to read and write.
In bible all prophets could read and write, the God of the bible, gave the Prophets of the bible to read and write.

But Allah to weak not help Muhammad to read and write.

(Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners")
Muhammad sinner, no keep rule of gospels himself.

You said --( If your Bible hasn't been changed, then why is the Torah saying the Laws and prophetic scriptures of the prophets have lies because the scribes are changing certain verses using their pens)

Seeing you have no idea, Those scribes are not the scribes of Israel.
Seeing you have no understanding, explain who those scribes are, they are not scribes of Israel. So who are they.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners"

Muhammad tell others to obye gospels, but Muhammad not obey gospels.
So Muhammad is sinner, not obey gospels.

How is Allah telling the Christians and Jews to rule in accordance with the Bible that is with them according to Noble Verse 7:157 when these scriptures were corrupted by the followers of the religion and could not be found in their true form?

The Noble Quran came to CONFIRM the Truth that exists in the Bible. Allah Almighty NEVER claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine. Islam is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth from falsehood and corruption in the Bible.

The Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it. Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded.

Allah Almighty commanded the Jews and Christians to rule among themselves according to the Bible only in the social and domestic disputes. This was when Islam was partial and its Laws were not yet complete. The following Hadith further proves this:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: "The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse.

Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?"

They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there.

They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."

(Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 829)"

But after Islam became complete, there was no reason for them to continue following the Bible: ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah).

This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....(The Noble Quran, 5:3)"

The whole Bible to both the Noble Quran and the Bible itself is corrupted, and Jews, Christians and Muslims must follow the Noble Quran and Islam to get accurate Justice.

Here is what Noble Verse 7:157 states: "Those who follow the Messenger [Muhammad], the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good and prohibits them from what is bad; He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him- it is they who will prosper."

We Muslims believe that Allah Almighty did send the Torah (Old Testament or the Law) to the Jews, but they then corrupted this Holy Message.

"We (Allah) certainly gave the Book To Moses, but differences arose therein: had it not been That a Word had gone forth Before from thy Lord, the matter Would have been decided Between them: but they Are in suspicious doubt Concerning it. (The Noble Quran, 11:110)"

The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time.

But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message. Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems.

They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe. That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them.

A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out.

That is why "differences arose therein....." Allah Almighty promised hell to those Jews who caused the corruption of the Original Torah; "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"

Preface to the Revised Standard Version
(2nd ed., 1971)

Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation. The task was undertaken, by authority of the Church of England, in 1870. The English Revised Version of the Bible was published in 1881-1885; and the American Standard Version, its variant embodying the preferences of the American scholars associated in the work, was published in 1901.

Preface to the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (1971)


You Christians tell us Muslims the Qur'an is wrong about your scriptures being changed and your own scholars tell everyone this and you still claim this is a lie and the Qur'an is wrong and Muslims scratch are heads, thinking what's wrong with you.

You want the verses and chapters your scholars took out of your scriptures? because i can give you a link.

You say ( The Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it. Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement)

How do muhammad know, Muhammad no read and write, so how would Muhammad what is right or wrong.

600 years before Muhammad came to be, Jesus gave prophecy about false prophet in the desert. It has come down that Muhammad was only one to claim to be prophet to live in desert.

Jesus say in bible Matthew 24:24-26
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not"

Muhammad ( he is in the desert) false prophet muhammad in desert.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe Jews don't want to see Jesus in the Tenach.

I believe Christians see what is there for what it is.

I believe you are seeing things that are not there because you want to see them.

That is the usual conservative Christian point of view. You are giving a statement of faith of course, not an argument.

I believe what can be said of the Qu'ran is that it views the Tenach and NT as legitimately from God.

That is true.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Muhammad is in the Bible in several places and so is Islam and it's teachings, and proving this is no problem, but Baha'ullah isn't and that also can be proven using the context of scriptures and the Qur'an, Muhammad is the last and final Messenger and Prophet and anybody else who claims being sent by God don't listen or believe their teachings.

There are at least 100 verses in the Bible that refer to the Baha'i Faith but that is not the OP question.

Muslims have misunderstand many verses of the Holy Quran including the meaning of seal of the prophets (33:40) but that isn't the purpose of this thread either.

Also Muhammad is mentioned in world scriptures, because Islam and the Bible teaches that God sent every nation and tribes a messenger and a prophet and these religions also teach monotheism and belief in divine instructions, but these scriptures have been altered and tribal customs and traditions along with false teachings have corrupted their scriptures, just like the Torah and the Gospels, they also have been corrupted, but not to the extent of the other world religious scriptures like Hinduism.

Depsite the Gospels being mentioned 12 times in the Quran and the Torah over one hundred, there is not one verse in the Quran that refers to either either of these books being corrupted. Muslims, like Christians, have strayed far from the truth of their Holy books. It also explains in part why Muslims struggle in a forum like this. They have a negative attitude towards the sacred Gospels. Would God having revealed the Gospels, then take it away, and leave the Christians deprived of this guidance for nearly 600 years until the Islamic dipsensation? A just and loving God would protect such a book from such corruption. Muslims have erred greviously in the sight of God to imagine otherwise.

Why bother trying to find Islam in the Bible at all if it is so corrupted? The Christians and Jews are right to see such efforts as insincere.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So you want people to believe, the first Woe trumpet is Muhammad, so your saying that Muhammad is a trumpet.

How you come by that is anyones guess
Muhammad a trumpet.

Well that shows what happens when people listen to man's teachings and not the teachings of Gods.

Baha'u'llah has no clue or idea what the Three woe trumpets are or represents.

Then you wonder why Baha'u'llah and Muhammad are false Prophets.

With the advent of a new religious dispensation comes trials and tribulations or woes. Consider the Jewish people being driven out of Judea not long after Christ's mission as He prophecised (Mark 13).

Consider also the afflictions of the masses after the floods in the days of Noah.

A trumpet is symbolic for announcing the coming of the Lord.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I have no interest or intent at insulting or demeaning anyone. I am interested in having constructive conversations with peoples of different faiths about the OP question. If I have inadvertently made an offensive remark I unreservedly apologise.



I'm aware that Jesus spoke in Aramaic, the New Testament was written in Koine Greek, later translated into Latin and eventually translated into English just over 400 years ago. Most participants in this forum rely on good quality English translations. In the context of a general debate we rely on the common use of English words. If you feel the available biblical translations are inadequate its up to you to prove it. There are many translations available. Unless you can provide examples of translations that support for statement, you are on shaky ground claiming you know better than all those who have translated the bible to date.



The question is answered by reference to Hebrews 1:1-5. Jesus is the 'Son of God' exalted above all humans and the angels.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?



I presume you refer to Daniel 7:13-14 ?

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

I agree the verse refers to Jesus. Note that he is given dominion and glory. Who has given Him the dominion and glory? God of course. Once again, Jesus is given the authority by His Father in heaven.

The Gospel of John makes this clear;

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
John 5:30-31

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
John 5:19-20

It sounds like we can sum as "I don't care what the Bible has to say about blasphemy, it must be that the English definition is what the Bible definition is, though the language of English is about 1,000 years younger than the Bible."

Jesus was killed for equating Himself with God. You can look outside the passion week to see instances where the people and Pharisees tried to stone Jesus for this idea.

 

[Faithofchristian]

It sounds like we can sum as "I don't care what the Bible has to say about blasphemy, it must be that the English definition is what the Bible definition is, though the language of English is about 1,000 years younger than the Bible."

Jesus was killed for equating Himself with God. You can look outside the passion week to see instances where the people and Pharisees tried to stone Jesus for this idea.

So who were those people and Pharisees,
That went about to kill Jesus?
Jesus revealed who they were many times.