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Does the Bible seem to give more importance to men

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So far as I can tell, those who have quoted the Bible and formulated an opinion have done so from a literalistic reading of the Bible. That is not the only way to read and interpret what scripture has to say to us, nor is it necessarily the "best" way. Sometimes a literalistic translation works, sometimes it doesn't.

Some stories in the Bible have to be looked at as just that -- stories. The Bible is full of myth, allegory, and metaphor. Best Biblical scholarship to date classifies the Adam and Eve story as allegory, not to be taken literalistically.

We have to remember that the culture of the writers was patriarchal, so the viewpoints expressed by the writer are going to be from the perspective of the culture in which they were steeped -- especially the OT.

In the NT, we see some clues that writers may be breaking free of these cultural stereotypes. Women are given more important roles in NT literature. Some are even touted as being in charge of certain early Christian assemblies, such as Priscia.

I don't think it's all that easy (or correct!) to read the Bible topically and then make a mysogenistic statement that puts down half of the human population. If women were commanded to keep silent, and not to be in authority over men, then common sense tells us to look deeper.

In Biblical culture, men embodied honor and women embodied shame. (It's still that way in many middle-eastern states.) Women, by cultural definition could not speak authoritatively to men, because they were not equal to men. But, in a society where equality is stressed, it just doesn't make sense to continue to make women fit into a cultural mold that is both temporally and geographically so far removed from our own.

The Biblical writers placed more "importance," as you say, on males, because that's the culture they lived in. If we read and interpret the scriptures through the lens of our own time and place, and in a non-literalistic way, there is much there that speaks very highly of women.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
So far as I can tell, those who have quoted the Bible and formulated an opinion have done so from a literalistic reading of the Bible. That is not the only way to read and interpret what scripture has to say to us, nor is it necessarily the "best" way. Sometimes a literalistic translation works, sometimes it doesn't.
Men are the head of women. Women were made by god for men. Men game first. Women should have a mark of authority on their head. Women should learn in submission. Women should never be in a position of authority over men.

Tell me the moral of these "stories"?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
JerryL said:
Men are the head of women. Women were made by god for men. Men game first. Women should have a mark of authority on their head. Women should learn in submission. Women should never be in a position of authority over men.

Tell me the moral of these "stories"?
That's just one way of interpreting the scriptural message, as I said. The "moral" of these stories is one culture's attempt to understand the world from the assumption that God loves us and seeks us out. I really don't think it makes sense to try and fit 21st century America into a world view illustrated by a 1500 b.c.e. writer. I believe it's wisest to interpret the scriptures in light of our own culture.

Your statements make an assumption of facts that just aren't there. For example, "Men came first." That's the Genesis writer's take on creation -- not provable fact.

The Bible helps us to understand our place in the universe by making us question -- not dictating our place by providing pat "answers." That's my take.
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
nutshell said:
There is such a thing as equal, but different.

God doesn't love men or women any more than the other, but each has his or her own responsibilities within God's plan.

Sounds eerily similar to the "seperate but equal" doctrine of the Jim Crowe days.

B.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Sounds eerily similar to the "seperate but equal" doctrine of the Jim Crowe days.
You sound a like a lawyer. Making a case and comparison when there is none.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The whole thing smacks of a cop-out. What kind of good news is this for women? How does this speak to the degradation and oppression of women by the "establishment" across the centuries? How does this preach freedom to women?

Responsibility is doled out by God's call to individuals, not according to what body parts we have. Frankly, I don't think God particularly cares what sex we are!

Let's assume that Jack and Sally are brother and sister, raised by the same family in the same town, and members of the same church. They score identical on all personality indicators and psychological tests. Both discern a call to the ordained ministry. The very fact that Sally wears a bra keeps her out??? I just don't think God works that way. it doesn't work for the anti-discrimination laws in civil matters. Do we know better than God?
 

Abram

Abraham
Read the book of Esther, where a woman saves the Jews. (By the way is the only book in the OT that never uses Gods name.)

Woman came from mans rib, woman ate the apple first. God said because of this "your disire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. Untill they relized that they can use lust to controll us...
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
That's just one way of interpreting the scriptural message,
Those are all quotes. What is "interpreted" in an exact quote?

I really don't think it makes sense to try and fit 21st century America into a world view illustrated by a 1500 b.c.e. writer. I believe it's wisest to interpret the scriptures in light of our own culture.
So there's no actual truth to the Bible, it's just a stone-age mythology? OK, that seems off-topic.

Your statements make an assumption of facts that just aren't there. For example, "Men came first." That's the Genesis writer's take on creation -- not provable fact.
It is a direct claim of Paul and a direct claim of Genesis.

Are you asserting that the writer of Genesis knew how the world was created and erroniously reported it? Or are you simply claiming the BIble is fabricated?

The Bible helps us to understand our place in the universe by making us question -- not dictating our place by providing pat "answers." That's my take.
According to Paul, writer of a great deal of the NT, the place of a woman is in submission to a man.

If the writers don't know what they are talking about in direct claim; what makes the Bible at all useful as anything except an insight into the culture that invented it?
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
Responsibility is doled out by God's call to individuals, not according to what body parts we have. Frankly, I don't think God particularly cares what sex we are!
And from where did you get this idea. It's contrary to the cannon for the monothesitic three.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
JerryL said:
Those are all quotes. What is "interpreted" in an exact quote?

So there's no actual truth to the Bible, it's just a stone-age mythology? OK, that seems off-topic.

It is a direct claim of Paul and a direct claim of Genesis.

Are you asserting that the writer of Genesis knew how the world was created and erroniously reported it? Or are you simply claiming the BIble is fabricated?

According to Paul, writer of a great deal of the NT, the place of a woman is in submission to a man.

If the writers don't know what they are talking about in direct claim; what makes the Bible at all useful as anything except an insight into the culture that invented it?
1) Why did the writer write what he did? Who is is audience? What is the specific problem he's addressing? What occasioned the writer to write in the first place?
Comparison of other early texts can help triangulate meaning. What did the original Hebrew or Greek say? Wat is the difficulty in translating Aramaic into Greek into Latin into English into modern English? That's how one interprets "direct quotes." What we have in today's Bible is not necessarily what was originally written, not necessarily what the writer originally hoped to convey. for example, in Romans, chapter 3, the statement is quoted, "Saved through faith in Jesus Christ." But, recent scholarship reveals that the Greek word for "in" is the same word as the word for "of". "Saved through the faith of Jesus." Changes the whole meaning of the sentence, and affects the theology of salvation. Which is correct? We can't tell from the original Greek. We have to use our best human guess in comparing it with other texts and within the context of the whole letter, as well as in the context of other writings of the same period and in the same genre. That's interpretation of "direct quotes."

2) Not all of what is written in the Bible is fact. There are references to sites being in certain places that don't jive archaeologically. There are references to events happening during a certain king's reign that can't be corroborated historically. Most scholars agree that the story of Adam and Eve is metaphrical, not factual. Genesis was never meant to be a science or history lesson. It was meant as a theology lesson. But... just because myth is used, and metaphor, and allegory, doesn't mean that the Bible isn't revelatory... which is what the Bible is meant to do -- reveal God to us. The Bible hasn't endured because it is factual. It has endured because it is revelatory. There is great truth to be found in metaphor and allegory, even if the story is not factual.

3) Just because someone makes a claim, and just because it's written in Genesis does not constitute fact. It constitutes opinion in the case of Paul, and metaphor in the case of Genesis.

4) I'm asserting that the writer of Genesis never meant to give us a science lesson. The writer of Genesis hoped to bring the understanding that the universe reveals the hand of God to us, not the understanding of how it came to be from a scientific standpoint. That's why I think the whole issue of creationism vs. evolution is bogus. We're trying to compare apples and oranges, just as your statement here does.

5) Maybe that's because Paul was writing in the context of his own culture, and from his own perspective...

6) The writers know what they're talking about, insofar as they have the knowledge. The Genesis writer didn't have as much information about anthropology as we do -- and even we don't have enough to make a factual claim about the rise of humanity. Again, the Bible is useless as a history or science lesson. The Biblical writers revealing God to us, and in helping us to understand the universe and our place in it from a do speak with insight from a theological perspective. The Bible reveals God at work in the universe and within the human community, reaching out in love to God's children. That's the whole purpose of the Bible.

Limiting ourselves to what is actually written on the page in modern English (especially in Renaissance English) is to limit our understanding of the meaning the Bible has to offer us.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
JerryL said:
And from where did you get this idea. It's contrary to the cannon for the monothesitic three.
Of course God is portrayed as "Father." The Bible was written in a patriarchal society, in which there was no family without a father. Jesus was born male, because the son (not the daughter) inherits the family from the father. In that society, there was no place of honor in the family for the woman. Women inherited nothing from the father. If you use that paradigm, then women do not inherit the kingdom of God -- only men! Are you prepared to say that?

The Bible also portrays God as female, as "a hen gathering her brood under her wing."
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Qucik question before I give a lengthy response after Shabbas, are you reffering to the fact that G-d is referred to as He vs. She? Or is this about mankind and how women and men's role differ?
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
1) Why did the writer write what he did? Who is is audience? What is the specific problem he's addressing? What occasioned the writer to write in the first place?
Well, either you can answer "because it's true", in which case it can be taken as truth; or you can say that the Bible is untrue in which case were are asking the position of the BIble, and it can again be taken for what it says.

Comparison of other early texts can help triangulate meaning. What did the original Hebrew or Greek say? Wat is the difficulty in translating Aramaic into Greek into Latin into English into modern English? That's how one interprets "direct quotes." What we have in today's Bible is not necessarily what was originally written, not necessarily what the writer originally hoped to convey.
Stop positing hypotheticals. I gave you specific passages. Dispute them directly if you think you can.

Not all of what is written in the Bible is fact.
So the BIble is false. What does that have to do with the topic asking whether the Bible gives more importance to men?

3) Just because someone makes a claim, and just because it's written in Genesis does not constitute fact. It constitutes opinion in the case of Paul, and metaphor in the case of Genesis.
It's in the Bible. The question is what the Bible says. I answered with quotese from the BIble. Your argument over whether they are true "in reality" is entirely unrelated to teh question of what the Bible does.

4) I'm asserting that the writer of Genesis never meant to give us a science lesson.
It's still what the Bible claims.

5) Maybe that's because Paul was writing in the context of his own culture, and from his own perspective...
Which changes the text of the BIble how?

Limiting ourselves to what is actually written on the page in modern English (especially in Renaissance English) is to limit our understanding of the meaning the Bible has to offer us.
So let's discuss the Greek. I've got a lexicon.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Of course God is portrayed as "Father." The Bible was written in a patriarchal society, in which there was no family without a father. Jesus was born male, because the son (not the daughter) inherits the family from the father. In that society, there was no place of honor in the family for the woman. Women inherited nothing from the father. If you use that paradigm, then women do not inherit the kingdom of God -- only men! Are you prepared to say that?
OK. None of that is what I'm talking about. You are propping up your own argument and then hacking it down. Google "Straw-man argument" to see your fallacy.

"Women should never be in a position of authority over men".
"Woman was made for man, man was not made for women"
"Women should have a mark of authority on their head"
"God is the head of man, and man is the head of woman"

Of course, that's NT. The OT is equally clear but a little less succcinct; of course the Quran adds such things as the "beat your wives if they won't do hat they are told" thing... whcih is pretty succinct.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
JerryL said:
OK. None of that is what I'm talking about. You are propping up your own argument and then hacking it down. Google "Straw-man argument" to see your fallacy.

"Women should never be in a position of authority over men".
"Woman was made for man, man was not made for women"
"Women should have a mark of authority on their head"
"God is the head of man, and man is the head of woman"

Of course, that's NT. The OT is equally clear but a little less succcinct; of course the Quran adds such things as the "beat your wives if they won't do hat they are told" thing... whcih is pretty succinct.
OK. What are you talking about?
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
OK. What are you talking about?
I am talking about statements in the Bible that would indicate that the Bible gives more importance to men. What are you talking about?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
JerryL said:
Well, either you can answer "because it's true", in which case it can be taken as truth; or you can say that the Bible is untrue in which case were are asking the position of the BIble, and it can again be taken for what it says.

Stop positing hypotheticals. I gave you specific passages. Dispute them directly if you think you can.

So the BIble is false. What does that have to do with the topic asking whether the Bible gives more importance to men?

It's in the Bible. The question is what the Bible says. I answered with quotese from the BIble. Your argument over whether they are true "in reality" is entirely unrelated to teh question of what the Bible does.

It's still what the Bible claims.

Which changes the text of the BIble how?

So let's discuss the Greek. I've got a lexicon.
1) This is not an either/or proposition. The Bible is not a black-and-white document. There are lots of "grey areas" that warrant and merit interpretation, whether they be linguistic problems, or cultural meaning problems. To say that "it must be factual because it's in the Bible" is using the Bible as a proof for itself. You're an engineer. You know that kind of proof doesn't work. The Bible is not an absolute. The questions I asked cannot be answered with "because it's true." Get real.

2) "Positing hypotheticals" has nothing to do with asking questions to determine meaning. I'm not disputing what is physically written on the page. It says what it says. What I'm disputing is what you think it means. To say that "it means precisely what it says" is to discount any but the most literalistic interpretation, which most scholastic exegetes and theologians disregard, as do I. The Bible says that it's an abomination to wear clothing made of mixed materials, too. But I'd be willing to bet that your shirt is 60/40... interpretation of writings that are far removed both physically and chronically is warranted, if we hope to bring relevancy to our understanding.

3) I never said "the bible is false." That's your interpretation of what I said. What I said was that the Bible contains things that are not factual. "Not factual" and "false" are two different things. Truth does not depend upon fact.

4) Again, what the Bible says and what it means by what it says are two different things. I think what we're after here is meaning, not simple regurgitation of what's on the page.

5) How do you know what the Bible "claims," if you're unwilling to engage the text in any but the most superficial reading? That was my point at the beginning -- your "interpretation" is not automatically "what the Bible claims." The scriptures are open for interpretation.

6) It doesn't "change the text" of the Bible, but it does change the meaning of what is written, which is what we've established that we're after.

7) Debating a lexicon would not completely satisfy the needs of the text here. A complete exegesis might include a study of the Greek text, but would certainly be in scope beyond just that.

Suffice to say, a literalistic reading of the Bible is, as has been determined by most scholastic exegetes, constructing a house of cards -- you see the facade, but you gain no substance. Isn't that kind of like the "straw-man argument" you mentioned?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
JerryL said:
I am talking about statements in the Bible that would indicate that the Bible gives more importance to men. What are you talking about?
"Indicate" is not what we're after here. We're in pusuit of meaning. What do those passages you quote mean for the reader? How are to understand them? I'm talking about giving the passages the attention they deserve in order to formulate a considered opinion of their meaning -- not simply spouting Bible passages. Reading the Bible isn't like reading street signs. "Keep off the median" is a straightforward requirement. "Women should be silent in the assembly" isn't a street sign. It isn't a straightforward requirement. It's not fact, it's opinion. Why is that opinion held? that's what I'm after.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
1) This is not an either/or proposition. The Bible is not a black-and-white document. There are lots of "grey areas" that warrant and merit interpretation, whether they be linguistic problems, or cultural meaning problems. To say that "it must be factual because it's in the Bible" is using the Bible as a proof for itself. You're an engineer. You know that kind of proof doesn't work. The Bible is not an absolute. The questions I asked cannot be answered with "because it's true." Get real.
I cite specific examples and you retort with generalized rhetoric.

The question is whether the Bible seems to gove more importance to me. I've cited several passages that say explicitly that men are superior (in the "superior officer" sense of the word) to women. You've no responded to those specific claims, just made some general rhetoric.

2) "Positing hypotheticals" has nothing to do with asking questions to determine meaning. I'm not disputing what is physically written on the page. It says what it says. What I'm disputing is what you think it means. To say that "it means precisely what it says" is to discount any but the most literalistic interpretation, which most scholastic exegetes and theologians disregard, as do I. The Bible says that it's an abomination to wear clothing made of mixed materials, too. But I'd be willing to bet that your shirt is 60/40... interpretation of writings that are far removed both physically and chronically is warranted, if we hope to bring relevancy to our understanding.
You seem to be arguing that it means something other than what the writers ment.

I'm happy to discuss the meanings of the passages I quoted. I've made my assertions regarding them, please explain how I am wrong.

3) I never said "the bible is false." That's your interpretation of what I said. What I said was that the Bible contains things that are not factual. "Not factual" and "false" are two different things. Truth does not depend upon fact.
Of course it makes statements which are not factual. "Be nice to each other" isn't factual, it's philisophical. Stop trying to change the subject.

The Bible gives more importance to me. I cited several passages to that effect. If you believe that these passages indicate soemthing different, or that there are different passages that offset them; please present your actual case.

5) How do you know what the Bible "claims," if you're unwilling to engage the text in any but the most superficial reading? That was my point at the beginning -- your "interpretation" is not automatically "what the Bible claims." The scriptures are open for interpretation.
I've cited scriptre and my interpretation. Feel free to explain how I'm wrong.

7) Debating a lexicon would not completely satisfy the needs of the text here. A complete exegesis might include a study of the Greek text, but would certainly be in scope beyond just that.
Feel free to get started doing so any time. I'll see if I can keep up.

Suffice to say, a literalistic reading of the Bible is, as has been determined by most scholastic exegetes, constructing a house of cards -- you see the facade, but you gain no substance. Isn't that kind of like the "straw-man argument" you mentioned?
Blah, blah, blah. Since you assert that my "interpretation" of the passages I've cited is wrong, please give me the correct meanings and your support.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
"Indicate" is not what we're after here. We're in pusuit of meaning. What do those passages you quote mean for the reader? How are to understand them? I'm talking about giving the passages the attention they deserve in order to formulate a considered opinion of their meaning -- not simply spouting Bible passages. Reading the Bible isn't like reading street signs. "Keep off the median" is a straightforward requirement. "Women should be silent in the assembly" isn't a street sign. It isn't a straightforward requirement. It's not fact, it's opinion. Why is that opinion held? that's what I'm after.
But why the Bible gives men more importance isn't the topic. Whether it does or not is.
 
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