Does the OT apply to Christians?

[Pegg]

And the idea is that we are judged according to how well we live up to the Law. In the Old Testament, one of the Kings is judged with mercy because he wasn't totally bad.

was King David judged by the mosaic law? as you rightly state, no. What was he being judged by if not by the mosaic law?
David arranged for an innocent mans death, committed adultery, lied and cheated...all these things are against the mosaic law. Yet God did not punish him according to the requirements set out in that law. God still saw righteousness in David and he loved David for it.

What was the righteousness he saw and appreciated in David???

Everyone is unrighteous in the sense that we aren't totally perfect, but some are more unrighteous than others, just as some are more righteous than others. Plenty of people in the OT are called "righteous" so that proves my logic and disproves yours.

hang on, have a look at what i've highlighted above ...

everyone is 'unrighteous'....but some are called 'righteous'

If law determines what is righteous, and everyone fails in some respect to live perfectly by law, then we are all unrighteous.....yet God calls some of us righteous. Even though, even they, do not adhere fully to the perfect law, they are still called righteous.

what should that tell you about righteousness?

We don't know what Job went by. We know that Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean. We know that Abraham abided by God's "Statutes, judgments, and ordinances". We can only imagine if they did or not, we can't say for sure one way or another.

this was very well said. yet you seem to know for sure that they did live by the mosaic laws...how is that?

Your entire argument revolves around speculation and presumption as if its' matter of fact, and twisting the plain words of the text into something that defines your own Theology. There's no reason at all to assume that the Jews were expected to know that the New Covenant would not involve that same Law of God being written on their hearts but another one. Likewise, there's no reason one can conclude that the "Statutes, ordinances, and Judgments" that Abraham lived by were any different than the ones listed by Moses.

But there is one thing we do know for sure...God does not lie. He promised to send the Messiah, and when that messiah arrived, the 'obedience of the people' would turn to him.
If mankind are still to follow the mosaic law as set out by moses for their righteous standing, whats the point of sending the Messiah? Obviously he is not needed because the mosaic law is all mankind need.

is that what you think?

 

[Shermana]

was King David judged by the mosaic law? as you rightly state, no. What was he being judged by if not by the mosaic law?

I've already been over this with you. He was struck terribly for his sins, and it's arguable according to Oral Law (And Jesus believed in SOME Oral Law) Whether he actually committed adultery and murder. Even if he did, he was nearly struck dead by God and he suffered a terrible fate, with his own sons committing terrible crimes and even revolting against him. It's not like David was let off the hook with a slap on the wrist.

David arranged for an innocent mans death, committed adultery, lied and cheated...all these things are against the mosaic law. Yet God did not punish him according to the requirements set out in that law. God still saw righteousness in David and he loved David for it.

Again, we've been over this, and your argument was that Oral Law does not defeat what the text says, which is basically denying the very prospect of Oral Law interpretations altogether. The fact remains, as Jesus believed in some Oral Law, there may be reasons for believing David didn't actually commit adultery.

Either way though, DAVID WAS SEVERELY PUNISHED.

What was the righteousness he saw and appreciated in David???

Maybe the years of consistently obeying him before that event perhaps?

hang on, have a look at what i've highlighted above ...

everyone is 'unrighteous'....but some are called 'righteous'

Right.

If law determines what is righteous, and everyone fails in some respect to live perfectly by law, then we are all unrighteous.....yet God calls some of us righteous. Even though, even they, do not adhere fully to the perfect law, they are still called righteous.

Recall what I said about how one's righteousness is measured? If one is mostly righteous, then they will be called righteous by this logic.

what should that tell you about righteousness?

That it's measurable.

this was very well said. yet you seem to know for sure that they did live by the mosaic laws...how is that?

Where did I Say I know for sure? All I said was that I believe it's very possible that the "Statutes, ordinances, and judgments" May have been very similar judging by the textual evidence. As well as perhaps Midrashic tradition and Pseudipigraphical texts. We simply have no idea.

But there is one thing we do know for sure...God does not lie. He promised to send the Messiah, and when that messiah arrived, the 'obedience of the people' would turn to him.

Yes, and this obedience may take an entire age to fulfill.

If mankind are still to follow the mosaic law as set out by moses for their righteous standing, whats the point of sending the Messiah? Obviously he is not needed because the mosaic law is all mankind need.

The point of sending Messiah was to get people away from the false interpretations of the Law and perhaps to serve as the Guilt Offering for the Age without the Temple. But the temple will be restored according to Zechariah and perhaps Ezekiel.

is that what you think?[

That there's no need for Messiah? Considering how much I oppose most Rabbinical doctrine (Most, not all), that should be a sufficient answer. Jesus was sent to tell the religious rulers how wrong they were, and to be the official Sacrifice for the non-temple age. So thus, absolutely necessary.

 

[Shermana]

O.k. for the sake of argument I'll give an opinion...suppose we say that idwally it would be OT laws in congruence with the laws of the persons community, and only to the extent of practicality,,,I mean, keep in mind, many people simply would find being Torah True basically impossible, especially people living on small incomes, or communally with other people (sharing food etc.).....I'm not against your reasoning, I just think it needs to be more liberal and not an 'all or nothing' deal.

You didn't find that reference in Acts 21?

Did you miss this or did you not really even read it?

20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

You can think my reasoning needs to be more liberal all you want, we're talking about what the text says and what the original church taught, not what you think should be right. I personally can't see a single reason why a person can't be Torah true. What is so expensive exactly? Can only afford pork or something? Go vegetarian then. Can't find kosher vegetarian? You're shopping at the wrong store. Can't afford 100% cotton clothing? It's not much more expensive than Polyesther. Can't afford Fringes and a Mezuzah? Go without TV one month. Seriously, what's so expensive about it? Communal living can involve being vegetarian too you know. If you communally live with a Swineherd, you don't have to eat what they raise. IF you communally live on a shrimp boat, maybe you can fish for something kosher.

Where do you possibly get the idea that living Torah true wouldn't be feasible? Give me a single specific example of what wouldn't be practical, even on a "Small income" or "communal living".

 

[oldbadger]

the righteousness of the mosaic law is one thing, its requirements are another.

The mosiac law is said to lead people to the Messiah...once he was here, there was a different requirement.

OK..... so why does Paul 'bang on' about homosexuals? You accept Mosiac law, or you do not..........?

 

[Shermana]

God is Almighty. The laws that fall away, were given the time to fall away. Discern for yourself using Love/the Spirit of the Son, what laws are meant to be for what times and spaces. Moses was a judge, and so are we over ourselves. Greater than Moses we are to be, even; who was a lesser prophet than John. Luke 7:28.

Discerning by the Spirit, all the Laws are still in force and will remain in force until Heaven and Earth collapse, and those who say otherwise will have a nasty surprise waiting for them.

 

[Shermana]

OK..... so why does Paul 'bang on' about homosexuals? You accept Mosiac law, or you do not..........?

However he doesn't specifically mention Beastialism. Or incest.

I guess that's allowed now then by their interpretation.

Looks like they can freely Marry their sisters! Or their goats!

(And before anyone mentions Abraham and Sarah, she was his niece and thus sister-in-law, niece-uncle marriage is acceptable in Judaism like Cousin marriages)

 

[oldbadger]

Whenever I bring up the fact that Christianity is heretical to Judaism it is always met with argument. It seems obvious to me that even if Jesus didn't teach the abandonment of all the laws, (I suspect that He did), what Christianity has become is still heretical in nature to Judaism.

Heretical isn't necessarily "bad" IMO.

That's like suggesting that Judaism is heretical to Hinduism or any other 'older' religion. Can I propose that no religion can be heretical, only humans....? Since so many christians were/are gentiles, this surely reinforces such a proposal?

 

[oldbadger]

However he doesn't specifically mention Beastialism. Or incest.

I guess that's allowed now then by their interpretation.

Looks like they can freely Marry their sisters! Or their goats!

Ok, but I just want an answer to Paul's mania about homosexuals. One step..... we must approach the question of wild orgies with our sisters and goats till later.

 

[Desert Snake]

That's like suggesting that Judaism is heretical to Hinduism or any other 'older' religion. Can I propose that no religion can be heretical, only humans....? Since so many christians were/are gentiles, this surely reinforces such a proposal?

I said that Christianity by it's very teachings is heretical to Judaism. You know, the Christianity that most people follow, not offshoots or sects that don't like the NT for this or that reason.
BTW I'm not sure what you're saying, are you saying that Christians are heretical but Christianity isn't...or?

 

[Tarheeler]

That's like suggesting that Judaism is heretical to Hinduism or any other 'older' religion.

Only if Judaism presented itself as a continuation of Hinduism.

 

[Desert Snake]

You didn't find that reference in Acts 21?

Did you miss this or did you not really even read it?
You can think my reasoning needs to be more liberal all you want, we're talking about what the text says and what the original church taught, not what you think should be right. I personally can't see a single reason why a person can't be Torah true. What is so expensive exactly? Can only afford pork or something? Go vegetarian then. Can't find kosher vegetarian? You're shopping at the wrong store. Can't afford 100% cotton clothing? It's not much more expensive than Polyesther. Can't afford Fringes and a Mezuzah? Go without TV one month. Seriously, what's so expensive about it? Communal living can involve being vegetarian too you know. If you communally live with a Swineherd, you don't have to eat what they raise. IF you communally live on a shrimp boat, maybe you can fish for something kosher.

Where do you possibly get the idea that living Torah true wouldn't be feasible? Give me a single specific example of what wouldn't be practical, even on a "Small income" or "communal living".

Yes, you're mis-reading Acts 21 or something.

As to your other comments...eh, that's not for me, preach to someone else.

 

[oldbadger]

I said that Christianity by it's very teachings is heretical to Judaism. You know, the Christianity that most people follow, not offshoots or sects that don't like the NT for this or that reason.
BTW I'm not sure what you're saying, are you saying that Christians are heretical but Christianity isn't...or?

I wasn't so much saying, as proposing...... that it is only humans that can be heretics. For instance, a heathen becomes a christian......this might not be any kind of heresy against Judaism. On the other hand, a Jew becomes a christian... this would be a heresy. So humans are the heretics....or not.

What if a Hindu becomes a Christian? Heresy? Hindus might think so..... but did you? To leave our own 'conditions', and then look back or up, or down, from as many other places as possible, might help us to view things from a wider perspective?

 

[Desert Snake]

What if a Hindu becomes a Christian? Heresy? Hindus might think so..... but did you? To leave our own 'conditions', and then look back or up, or down, from as many other places as possible, might help us to view things from a wider perspective?

Christianity is based off of Judaism, they're not completely separate like the examples you've given. I already stated that I don't think "heretical" necessarily implies a bad connotation, if it does, then provide another word if you want, it's going to mean the same thing.
Beyond that I don't know what you're getting at.

 

[oldbadger]

Christianity is based off of Judaism, they're not completely separate like the examples you've given. I already stated that I don't think "heretical" necessarily implies a bad connotation, if it does, then provide another word if you want, it's going to mean the same thing.
Beyond that I don't know what you're getting at.

OK...... I'll go with you on that. OK? So now I have to admit that christianity (in itself) is heresy.

So...... moving forward, does that mean that bahai (which stems from judaism/christianity) is heresy? Where does the LDS faith stand on this?

So, basically, if a faith or culture develops, it becomes heresy (within the development?) ??

 

[Desert Snake]

OK...... I'll go with you on that. OK? So now I have to admit that christianity (in itself) is heresy.

So...... moving forward, does that mean that bahai (which stems from judaism/christianity) is heresy? Where does the LDS faith stand on this?

So, basically, if a faith or culture develops, it becomes heresy (within the development?) ??

At the time, Christianity was heretical to Judaism, did you find a better term? Was it not heretical?

 

[Sleeppy]

Discerning by the Spirit, all the Laws are still in force and will remain in force until Heaven and Earth collapse, and those who say otherwise will have a nasty surprise waiting for them.

All of them? I sure hope it's possible for you to do so. As for me, I'll be my own judge, and judge for no one else what I haven't been led to myself. I thank the Almighty, God of the living, for my Mediator and Savior.

 

[Shiranui117]

Would the Mosaic Law apply to the Gentile Christians? My forefathers were all Gentile Pagans before converting to Christianity, and according to Judaism itself, we Gentiles need only to follow the Noahide Laws. Acts 15 gives us a few more requirements, but overall, the Apostles themselves, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, decided that the Law would not apply to the Gentiles coming to Christianity.

It's one thing to say that the Jewish Christians must keep the Law. But us Gentiles? You have a long row to hoe in showing that.

 

[Desert Snake]

Would the Mosaic Law apply to the Gentile Christians? My forefathers were all Gentile Pagans before converting to Christianity, and according to Judaism itself, we Gentiles need only to follow the Noahide Laws. Acts 15 gives us a few more requirements, but overall, the Apostles themselves, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, decided that the Law would not apply to the Gentiles coming to Christianity.

It's one thing to say that the Jewish Christians must keep the Law. But us Gentiles? You have a long row to hoe in showing that.

Actually even Jewish Christians need not follow thw laws, Christianity is the same for everyone... Some people here are just advocating it for various reasons.

 

[Shiranui117]

Actually even Jewish Christians need not follow thw laws, Christianity is the same for everyone... Some people here are just advocating it for various reasons.

I'm aware of that. Just bringing up an issue I have with Shermana's line of reasoning.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's one thing to say that the Jewish Christians must keep the Law. But us Gentiles? You have a long row to hoe in showing that.

must according to ... ?