Does the Quran promote peaceful values? (I claim it does not.)

[Scimitar]

The Quran promotes the most peaceful values, further - it elaborates on how to protect that peace thru laws which seek to protect individual rights and freedoms.

I find it very odd that non Muslims would comment on a book of which they have no understanding about - in terms of context, revelation, makkanite and medinite partitions, or how to differentiate between the obscure ayaat and the plain ones, or the fact that the book itself is timeless - a classic which has verses in them that were understood by foregone generations and verses which make sense for the modern age, and verses still, which though obscure now - will prove to be quite plain in future - as God reveals to humanity, certain knowledges which align with Quranic ayaat.

Take for example, the verses about embryology, and you see quite plainly that this revelation was ahead of its time by way over a thousand years - and the objection to this ayaat in the modern age have all been weak and turned over with proof from embryology itself.

Further, that was just one example, and the Quran has many... a book of signs for those who reflect, contemplate and humble themselves before God because their understanding is incomplete, and so rely on the mercy of the Creator, Allah to enlighten them as to the correct intended meanings behind ayaat.

And knowledge comes to those who Allah favours.

So be it.

 

[cocokorina]

The Quran promotes the most peaceful values, further - it elaborates on how to protect that peace thru laws which seek to protect individual rights and freedoms.

I find it very odd that non Muslims would comment on a book of which they have no understanding about - in terms of context, revelation, makkanite and medinite partitions, or how to differentiate between the obscure ayaat and the plain ones, or the fact that the book itself is timeless - a classic which has verses in them that were understood by foregone generations and verses which make sense for the modern age, and verses still, which though obscure now - will prove to be quite plain in future - as God reveals to humanity, certain knowledges which align with Quranic ayaat.

Take for example, the verses about embryology, and you see quite plainly that this revelation was ahead of its time by way over a thousand years - and the objection to this ayaat in the modern age have all been weak and turned over with proof from embryology itself.

Further, that was just one example, and the Quran has many... a book of signs for those who reflect, contemplate and humble themselves before God because their understanding is incomplete, and so rely on the mercy of the Creator, Allah to enlighten them as to the correct intended meanings behind ayaat.

And knowledge comes to those who Allah favours.

So be it.

one can always defend quran by using the 'out of context' excuse. fine. but what about prophet mohammad's rules?
please explain WHY prophet mohammad or ALLAH set sharia rules which are very violent. why is stoning of adulterers allowed, 80 lashes for fornicators, stoning or killing of homosexuals, killing of declared apostates? are those laws not promoting violence. please dont deny these laws as prophet himself took part in many of these stonings.

 

[icehorse]

The Quran promotes the most peaceful values, further - it elaborates on how to protect that peace thru laws which seek to protect individual rights and freedoms.

I find it very odd that non Muslims would comment on a book of which they have no understanding about - in terms of context, revelation, makkanite and medinite partitions, or how to differentiate between the obscure ayaat and the plain ones, or the fact that the book itself is timeless - a classic which has verses in them that were understood by foregone generations and verses which make sense for the modern age, and verses still, which though obscure now - will prove to be quite plain in future - as God reveals to humanity, certain knowledges which align with Quranic ayaat.

Take for example, the verses about embryology, and you see quite plainly that this revelation was ahead of its time by way over a thousand years - and the objection to this ayaat in the modern age have all been weak and turned over with proof from embryology itself.

Further, that was just one example, and the Quran has many... a book of signs for those who reflect, contemplate and humble themselves before God because their understanding is incomplete, and so rely on the mercy of the Creator, Allah to enlighten them as to the correct intended meanings behind ayaat.

And knowledge comes to those who Allah favours.

So be it.

As Daniel Dennett would say: "A fine collection of 'deepities' ".

(deepity: a statement that is apparently profound but actually asserts a triviality on one level and something meaningless on another. Generally, a deepity has (at least) two meanings: one that is true but trivial, and another that sounds profound, but is essentially false or meaningless and would be "earth-shattering" if true.)

------------------------------

"without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[Sabour]

one can always defend quran by using the 'out of context' excuse. fine. but what about prophet mohammad's rules?
please explain WHY prophet mohammad or ALLAH set sharia rules which are very violent. why is stoning of adulterers allowed, 80 lashes for fornicators, stoning or killing of homosexuals, killing of declared apostates? are those laws not promoting violence. please dont deny these laws as prophet himself took part in many of these stonings.

The aim of these punishments is not promoting violence. The aim is to deter the people from doing these things.

Besides, every case has its own conditions which make it a very rare case that the doer will be punished. Most likely they will have the chance to repent between them and themselves. Besides, most of the stoning that happened were from people who went themselves and admitted to what they did.

 

[cocokorina]

The aim of these punishments is not promoting violence. The aim is to deter the people from doing these things.

Besides, every case has its own conditions which make it a very rare case that the doer will be punished. Most likely they will have the chance to repent between them and themselves. Besides, most of the stoning that happened were from people who went themselves and admitted to what they did.

yes they are promoting violence. sharia FORCES people to live their lives a certain way and to not leave islam.
stoning someone to death for being a homosexual or for adultery is not violence?
80 lashes for someone because they had sex is not violence?
mohammad allowed killing of apostates and those who spoke against him. that was not violence?
what is violence then?

 

[Sabour]

yes they are promoting violence. sharia FORCES people to live their lives a certain way and to not leave islam.

If the aim of Islam is violence, than we won't find the following verses:
Righteous in chapter 2:

Verse 2: This is the book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah - ( a guidance for those conscious of Allah المتقين
Verse 3 – 4- 5: explanation: Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,3 And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].4Those are upon

guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful.5

41: And believe in what I have sent down confirming that which is [already] with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And do not exchange My signs for a small price, and fear [only] Me. ( fear only Me فاتقو&#1606
48: And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. ( fear a day واتقو&#1575
103: And if they had believed and feared Allah , then the reward from Allah would have been [far] better, if they only knew. (feared Allah واتقو&#1575

123: And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, and no compensation will be accepted from it, nor will any intercession benefit it, nor will they be aided.( fear a day واتقو&#1575
179 And there is for you in legal retribution [saving of] life, O you [people] of understanding, that you may become righteous.
180: Prescribed for you when death approaches [any] one of you if he leaves wealth [is that he should make] a bequest for the parents and near relatives according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous. (المتقي&#1606
183: O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous –( تتقو&#1606

187: It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah , so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous. (يتقو&#1606
206: And when it is said to him, "Fear Allah ," pride in the sin takes hold of him. Sufficient for him is Hellfire, and how wretched is the resting place
(fear Allah ات&#1602
223:Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers.
224: And do not make [your oath by] Allah an excuse against being righteous and fearing Allah and making peace among people. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
231: And when you divorce women and they have [nearly] fulfilled their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or release them according to acceptable terms, and do not keep them, intending harm, to transgress [against them]. And whoever does that has certainly wronged himself. And do not take the verses of Allah in jest. And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Knowing of all things. (fear Allah واتقو&#1575
233 Mothers may breastfeed their children two complete years for whoever wishes to complete the nursing [period]. Upon the father is the mothers' provision and their clothing according to what is acceptable. No person is charged with more than his capacity. No mother should be harmed through her child, and no father through his child. And upon the [father's] heir is [a duty] like that [of the father]. And if they both desire weaning through mutual consent from both of them and consultation, there is no blame upon either of them. And if you wish to have your children nursed by a substitute, there is no blame upon you as long as you give payment according to what is acceptable. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Seeing of what you do. ( fear Allah واتقو&#1575

237 And if you divorce them before you have touched them and you have already specified for them an obligation, then [give] half of what you specified - unless they forego the right or the one in whose hand is the marriage contract foregoes it. And to forego it is nearer to righteousness. And do not forget graciousness between you. Indeed Allah , of whatever you do, is Seeing. (nearer to righteousness للتقو&#1609
241 And for divorced women is a provision according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous. (المتقي&#1606

278 O you who have believed, fear Allah and give up what remains [due to you] of interest, if you should be believers. ( fear Allah)
281 And fear a Day when you will be returned to Allah . Then every soul will be compensated for what it earned, and they will not be treated unjustly.( fear a day)
282 O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things. (fear Allah)

Note that these are ONLY from chapter 2 !

In addition, let's take a look how Islam approaches wars when someone is attacking you.
2:190-194
190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
192 And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
194 [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

verse 190 indicates you would only fight those who fight you
verse 192, indicates that if they stopped, you stop too. And it doesn't specify any condition, this means in that verse that whatever they did before, as long as they have stopped, you should stop.
verse 194 states that who assaults you, than assault him IN THE SAME WAY. This means same intensity, not more. This is followed by "And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him." This means that if you assaulted back in higher intensity, Allah is watching so fear him and don't do it.

Why there are such verses? Because Islam needs to touch on everything including wars. It limits how you approach it by the verses I stated.

Now you tell me, is this a religion that promotes violence? Even for the ones who are attacking you? Don't tell me that for those who attack you, you should sit and let them overtake your territory.

About the part not leaving Islam, there are people who left Islam, and went back to Islam again at the times of the prophet. They weren't killed.​

 

[Sabour]

stoning someone to death for being a homosexual or for adultery is not violence?

Again, do you know what the condition is?
You need four witnesses. And if someone claimed you did and had no witnesses, he will be lashed 80 lashes because in that case he was a liar.

Having four witnesses is almost impossible ! So what is the point? to deter people from doing it.

One case in particular of stoning is when a woman came (with her will) to the prophet and told him I committed adultery so punish me. He said perhaps you are mistaken? She said no I am pregnant. He told her go and deliver your baby. When she delivered she came back and told him I am ready. He told her your baby need you to feed him. Than she came back after 2 years and said my child doesn't need me anymore now. I am ready.

What was said about that women is that if her repentance were to be divided between the people of the earth, they all would have been forgiven. Also the prophet was hoping if she had repented without coming and asking for the punishment.

mohammad allowed killing of apostates and those who spoke against him. that was not violence?

There were apostates who reverted back to Islam. How did they revert back if they were killed?

And what do you mean those who spoke against him were killed? That is not true. Can you give me an example?

 

[Scimitar]

As Daniel Dennett would say: "A fine collection of 'deepities' ".

(deepity: a statement that is apparently profound but actually asserts a triviality on one level and something meaningless on another. Generally, a deepity has (at least) two meanings: one that is true but trivial, and another that sounds profound, but is essentially false or meaningless and would be "earth-shattering" if true.)

Doesn't change the fact that I find your methods "strange" and very unscholarly.

To you, that is a trivial matter, and unsurprisingly so - since you don't consider method and logic as part of you cognitive learning processes. Sheeple much?

Have a nice day

 

[icehorse]

Doesn't change the fact that I find your methods "strange" and very unscholarly.

To you, that is a trivial matter, and unsurprisingly so - since you don't consider method and logic as part of you cognitive learning processes. Sheeple much?

Have a nice day

I understand that Islamic scholars have spent lifetimes interpreting scripture. Indeed, they've been scholarly. My claims boil down to taking the Quran using it's own messages. The Quran describes itself as:

- perfect
- eternal
- easily understood

Therefore - if the Quran is correct about itself - a person should NOT need a bunch of scholars to understand it. Therefore, a person should NOT need to be a historian to understand it.

So for example, since the Quran repeats 500 times that non-believers are to be despised, I think we should take that message seriously. I think it's fair for me to conclude that anyone who declares themselves to be Muslim must either:

1 - despise me on sight

or

2 - be applying their own sense of morality on the Quran and cherry-picking it's messages to suit their lives.

Of course the evidence we see in the world suggests that 99% of the world's Muslims must be cherry-picking, hooray. So why not just admit that?

 

[Sabour]

I understand that Islamic scholars have spent lifetimes interpreting scripture. Indeed, they've been scholarly. My claims boil down to taking the Quran using it's own messages. The Quran describes itself as:

- perfect
- eternal
- easily understood

Therefore - if the Quran is correct about itself - a person should NOT need a bunch of scholars to understand it. Therefore, a person should NOT need to be a historian to understand it.

So for example, since the Quran repeats 500 times that non-believers are to be despised, I think we should take that message seriously. I think it's fair for me to conclude that anyone who declares themselves to be Muslim must either:

1 - despise me on sight

or

2 - be applying their own sense of morality on the Quran and cherry-picking it's messages to suit their lives.

Of course the evidence we see in the world suggests that 99% of the world's Muslims must be cherry-picking, hooray. So why not just admit that?

Would you please quote the verses you are referring to.

Because if we were to answer you in general, you would just say it is not true.

So let us support our answers with verses.

 

[icehorse]

Here's a link to a list of "the 500"

Intolerance in the Quran

(Yes, I already know that some of the entries in the list are not the actual translations, but paraphrasing. But I've spot checked the list, and I think it captures the spirit of the verses listed.)

I'm assuming you already agree that the Quran is perfect, eternal, and understandable?

_____________
"without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[Sabour]

Here's a link to a list of "the 500"

Intolerance in the Quran

(Yes, I already know that some of the entries in the list are not the actual translations, but paraphrasing. But I've spot checked the list, and I think it captures the spirit of the verses listed.)

I'm assuming you already agree that the Quran is perfect, eternal, and understandable?

_____________
"without love in the game, insanity's king"

Do you agree with all of them ? just hit me with the numbers you agree with so I can answer them.

 

[icehorse]

Do you agree with all of them ? just hit me with the numbers you agree with so I can answer them.

Previously I have discussed individual verses with Muslims, and they've explained how any particular verse can be sliced and diced and put in some historical perspective and interpreted with some little-known meaning of a word, and by such means, a peaceful message can be - with great effort - extracted. I'm not interested in that sort of discussion.

When I read the Quran it was clear to me that there were several important themes that were repeated many times. One of the most repeated themes was the instruction to see the non-believers as "others". To set up an "us vs. them" worldview. We must step back and look at these bigger themes. To see the forest, not just the trees. From that broader perspective, it's clear that the book spends A LOT OF TIME teaching this "us vs. them", "distrust and despise the others" mentality.

I know, I know there are a few peaceful verses "there is no compulsion in religion" and so on. But those few verses don't carry the weight of 500 criticisms of non-believers.

So in a nutshell, I believe the book conveys this theme that separates people and does NOT unite them.

_____________
"without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[cocokorina]

Again, do you know what the condition is?
You need four witnesses. And if someone claimed you did and had no witnesses, he will be lashed 80 lashes because in that case he was a liar.

Having four witnesses is almost impossible ! So what is the point? to deter people from doing it.

One case in particular of stoning is when a woman came (with her will) to the prophet and told him I committed adultery so punish me. He said perhaps you are mistaken? She said no I am pregnant. He told her go and deliver your baby. When she delivered she came back and told him I am ready. He told her your baby need you to feed him. Than she came back after 2 years and said my child doesn't need me anymore now. I am ready.

in certain cases, there were confessions, but certainly not all of them.

"Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession." (Muslim 17:4194)
it's not like everyone who was stoned or flogged wanted to get punished for their 'sins'. o

There were apostates who reverted back to Islam. How did they revert back if they were killed?
And what do you mean those who spoke against him were killed? That is not true. Can you give me an example?

"Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " sahih bukhari 4.260

Abu Dawood (4361) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that a blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.” Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”


Al-Nasaa’i narrated (4071) that Abu Barzah al-Aslami said: A man spoke harshly to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq and I said, ‘Shall I kill him?’ He rebuked me and said, ‘That is not for anyone after the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) .’” (Saheeh al-Nasaa’i, 3795)

It may be noted from this that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had the right to kill whoever insulted him and spoke harshly to him, and that included both Muslims and kaafirs.
sometimes the prophet forgave certain apostates who apologized and repented (probably out of fear of being killed by him or his buddies). people who asked for forgiveness were forgiven but those who continued to insult him were killed. so how can you say he never killed apostates?
And if all these things are false, then please tell me why is there a fatwa against Salman Rushdie? why is it that majority of the scholars, ulemas, are in favor of death penalty for declared murtid/apostates and especially those who speak against mohammad or islam? why is blasephemy and mocking islam, quran or prophet mohmmad a criminal offense in nearly all muslim countries?

 

[Sabour]

in certain cases, there were confessions, but certainly not all of them.

"Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession." (Muslim 17:4194)
it's not like everyone who was stoned or flogged wanted to get punished for their 'sins'. o

I am not saying they are all of them because I don't know. But what do you think lead those people to confess? Do you think they are crazy ?

Isn't it amazing that someone comes and asks for such punishment?

I am sure you don't agree it is the punishment.

If prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was the inventor of something called Islam than he would surely not put this law. Isn't it?

This is the repentance paid in the world that I would go for instead for suffering in the hereafter. This is the faith I have that Islam is the religion of God which logically proven through the Quraan an the prophecies of the prophet.

When I do something wrong I am willing to accept consequences of my actions if this is what Allah wants.

"Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " sahih bukhari 4.260

Those that were burnt had a history of actions, last one of them was that they said that Ali is god. We can't judge such an action based on something we don't know.

Abu Dawood (4361) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that a blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.” Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”

I checked the hadith and it is true.

Let us be logical.

First, he was a blind man. Second, he mentioned that she is taking her of him. So the woman is very important for him in his life.

If he is instructed to kill at any condition, he would either directly follow, or not follow at all because she is serving him. Yet he tried to stop her.

This means he is not directly instructed to kill her in whatever conditions.

I can't imagine a blind man killing the only one who is aiding him because of instructions. At least if that was true, he wouldn't have said that he tried to stop her. He would have said gladly I did it!

Al-Nasaa’i narrated (4071) that Abu Barzah al-Aslami said: A man spoke harshly to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq and I said, ‘Shall I kill him?’ He rebuked me and said, ‘That is not for anyone after the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) .’” (Saheeh al-Nasaa’i, 3795)

Look the matter is all those who speak badly about Islam, cherry pick some hadith and put them and make Islam look bad. If I was taking a walk with my dad and somebody insulted him, I would rush to hit him. This is how much I love my dad. He will say no leave him. This is how much he is forgiving. Does that mean I am not a good person? NO ! When I am walking with my kid and someone insults me, my kid would want to do the same thing I wanted to do. But I would tell him no leave him alone. This is how much I am forgiving!

It may be noted from this that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had the right to kill whoever insulted him and spoke harshly to him, and that included both Muslims and kaafirs.
sometimes the prophet forgave certain apostates who apologized and repented (probably out of fear of being killed by him or his buddies). people who asked for forgiveness were forgiven but those who continued to insult him were killed. so how can you say he never killed apostates?
And if all these things are false, then please tell me why is there a fatwa against Salman Rushdie? why is it that majority of the scholars, ulemas, are in favor of death penalty for declared murtid/apostates and especially those who speak against mohammad or islam? why is blasephemy and mocking islam, quran or prophet mohmmad a criminal offense in nearly all muslim countries?

The killing was not for whoever spoke badly. There were conditions.

Look at any country, in case of war, do they have a smiley face to those who fight you from the inside by either telling your secrets or exposing you?

Listen, I think you have been listening from one side over and over.

I am not telling you not to listen to them. But please listen to the other side.

By the other side I don't mean me because I know nothing. You said you were an ex muslim. I don't know how ex you are. But please just listen to the other side like Yusuf estes, Zakir Naik or any other.

Just make sure where you are going.

Hearing to one side would be misleading because anything no matter how good it were can be made look bad.

For every hadith you say showing how harsh the prophet was I can quote you 5 which show how kind he was even to ones who mistreated him.

The problem is I don't have the translation. Anyways I hope you take my advice I hope you the best

 

[Sabour]

Previously I have discussed individual verses with Muslims, and they've explained how any particular verse can be sliced and diced and put in some historical perspective and interpreted with some little-known meaning of a word, and by such means, a peaceful message can be - with great effort - extracted. I'm not interested in that sort of discussion.

Not at all. I bet you for ANY thing you give me in the Quraan I can answer it from the context within it self. Maximum 2 verses after or 2 verses before.

The ONLY GREAT EFFORT is finding 90 verses out of approximately 6300 verses talking about "fighting situations" and taking them out of context to make them say what they don't.

I am not telling you that you should go to the first of the QUraan and than to the last page to refute it. It is with the same context.

When I read the Quran it was clear to me that there were several important themes that were repeated many times. One of the most repeated themes was the instruction to see the non-believers as "others". To set up an "us vs. them" worldview. We must step back and look at these bigger themes. To see the forest, not just the trees. From that broader perspective, it's clear that the book spends A LOT OF TIME teaching this "us vs. them", "distrust and despise the others" mentality.

Wrong.

All are taken out of context. It only sounds correct when one hears it several times.

Besides, explicit statement overwrite implicit statements.

I know, I know there are a few peaceful verses "there is no compulsion in religion" and so on. But those few verses don't carry the weight of 500 criticisms of non-believers.

Few?

 

[cocokorina]

I am not saying they are all of them because I don't know. But what do you think lead those people to confess? Do you think they are crazy ?
Isn't it amazing that someone comes and asks for such punishment?
I am sure you don't agree it is the punishment.

thats not the point. you said punishment was only for those who confessed, but thats not the case. same painful punishment were given to those who were 'caught'.
and no it's not amazing how someone asks for such punishment, there is this thing called brain washing.
ever heard of japanese Kamikazes? did you know that during WW2, those Japanese pilots would purposely kill themselves by flying into american ships?
do you know, people blow themselves up in the name of religion? its all brainwashing.

Those that were burnt had a history of actions, last one of them was that they said that Ali is god. We can't judge such an action based on something we don't know

so burning someone because they committed heresy or blasphemy is not violence in your eyes?

I checked the hadith and it is true.

Let us be logical.

First, he was a blind man. Second, he mentioned that she is taking her of him. So the woman is very important for him in his life.

If he is instructed to kill at any condition, he would either directly follow, or not follow at all because she is serving him. Yet he tried to stop her.

This means he is not directly instructed to kill her in whatever conditions.

I can't imagine a blind man killing the only one who is aiding him because of instructions. At least if that was true, he wouldn't have said that he tried to stop her. He would have said gladly I did it!

he killed a woman because she insulted prophet. thats not violence?

Look the matter is all those who speak badly about Islam, cherry pick some hadith and put them and make Islam look bad. If I was taking a walk with my dad and somebody insulted him, I would rush to hit him. This is how much I love my dad. He will say no leave him. This is how much he is forgiving. Does that mean I am not a good person? NO ! When I am walking with my kid and someone insults me, my kid would want to do the same thing I wanted to do. But I would tell him no leave him alone. This is how much I am forgiving!

so basically in your opinon, no one should be allowed to insult mohammad. if they do, they can die for it??

The killing was not for whoever spoke badly. There were conditions.

anyone who mocked and insulted mohammad, and did not ask for forgiveness was ordered to be killed.

Look at any country, in case of war, do they have a smiley face to those who fight you from the inside by either telling your secrets or exposing you?

so you're saying i should stay silent because im exposing all the dirty little secrets of islam? a countrys laws are not divine, but supposedly islam is. so dont compare islamic laws to treason laws.

Listen, I think you have been listening from one side over and over.
I am not telling you not to listen to them. But please listen to the other side.
By the other side I don't mean me because I know nothing. You said you were an ex muslim. I don't know how ex you are. But please just listen to the other side like Yusuf estes, Zakir Naik or any other.

zakir naik is a joke. please dont even bring him up here. the man is full of bs and lies.

Just make sure where you are going.
Hearing to one side would be misleading because anything no matter how good it were can be made look bad.

i was raised in a religious muslim home. so i have seen both sides.

For every hadith you say showing how harsh the prophet was I can quote you 5 which show how kind he was even to ones who mistreated him.

prophet forgave those who asked for forgiveness. if someone continued to insult him and not believe in him, he was killed. and since prophet showed both qualities of kindness and of vengeance, this just shows how normal human he was and nothing like a chosen prophet of God.

 

[icehorse]

one answer -

When I said that the Quran instructs Muslims to dislike non-believers 500 times and that the book creates an "us vs. them" message, you said:

Wrong.

All are taken out of context. It only sounds correct when one hears it several times.

Besides, explicit statement overwrite implicit statements.

Am I interpreting your response correctly? I'm not quite sure how to understand this response - sorry. Can say it a different way?

Then you said that you could tell be the correct interpretation. So let's start out really easily with the first two Surah. Surah 1 says that Allah is (forever) angry with non-beleivers. Surah 2 says that Allah makes non-believers wander blindly, that Allah made them to not believe (I wonder, so he can torment them?)...

 

[Sabour]

thats not the point. you said punishment was only for those who confessed, but thats not the case. same painful punishment were given to those who were 'caught'.
and no it's not amazing how someone asks for such punishment, there is this thing called brain washing.
ever heard of japanese Kamikazes? did you know that during WW2, those Japanese pilots would purposely kill themselves by flying into american ships?
do you know, people blow themselves up in the name of religion? its all brainwashing.

First I didn't say all I said most.

Second, how do you know it is brainwashing. Why generalize for something happened during WW2?.

Thirdly, if you think that Islam is a religion where you can walk freely and do whatever you want than sorry it is not.

Islam is the word of God and how you should live. When I commit something wrong, I would prefer to be punished here rather than being punished in the hereafter.

If you think that Islam is a religion where you can walk freely, do what you want, and than just "expect" God to forgive you, than sorry Islam says that you have to repent.

Part of the repent is taking those punishments.

Can these punishments be considered today. There is controversy about that but most scholars say No. Because there isn't an Islamic caliphat and the message of Islam is not preperly conveyed.

so burning someone because they committed heresy or blasphemy is not violence in your eyes?



he killed a woman because she insulted prophet. thats not violence?

so basically in your opinon, no one should be allowed to insult mohammad. if they do, they can die for it??

So tell me, when a country is in war situations, do they approach those who are against them with open arms?

They give the opposition information about you, they fight you from the inside, they are looking for any moment you take your eyes off them so they can inflict damage or kill.

We should approach with open arms and a smile on the face and forgiveness?

anyone who mocked and insulted mohammad, and did not ask for forgiveness was ordered to be killed.

Sorry I don't know that anyone turned back in time and came up with that info

so you're saying i should stay silent because im exposing all the dirty little secrets of islam? a countrys laws are not divine, but supposedly islam is. so dont compare islamic laws to treason laws.

Nope. I was referring to war secrets and strategies. Not secrets of Islam.

And there are no dirty secrets of Islam.

zakir naik is a joke. please dont even bring him up here. the man is full of bs and lies.
i was raised in a religious muslim home. so i have seen both sides.

Nope you didn't see both sides. You saw muslims and not Islam.

prophet forgave those who asked for forgiveness. if someone continued to insult him and not believe in him, he was killed. and since prophet showed both qualities of kindness and of vengeance, this just shows how normal human he was and nothing like a chosen prophet of God.

Nope. I think if the prophet was killing whoever didn't believe in him we would have been now all muslims.



Hadith sahih al-Tirmidhi 047 : 328 : Hadith 003
Anas bin Maalik Radiyallahu 'Anhu says: "I remained in the service (of Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam for ten years. He never once told me 'Oof'. When I did something, he never asked me, why did you do so? When I did not do a certain task, he never asked me why I did not do it. Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam had the best character among all people. (and also possessed the most excellent features, so much so,) that I never felt a silk cloth, nor pure silk, nor any other thing softer than the palm of Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam. Nor did I smell any musk or any other fragrance, more sweet smelling than the sweat of Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam".

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed." People asked, "…It is right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others." Sahih Al-Bukhari, 3:624

The Prophet also stated that God said: "O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another." - Hadith Qudsi, 17

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Be kind, for whenever kindness becomes part of something, it beautifies it. Whenever it is taken from something, it leaves it tarnished." He also said: "Make things simple and do not complicate them. Calm people and do not drive them away." - Imam Bukhari's Book of Muslim Morals and Manners

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "God did not send me to be harsh, or cause harm, but He sent me to teach and make things easy." - Sahih Muslim, Hadith 707

"During [a military expedition], a woman was found killed, so [the Prophet Muhammad] forbade the killing of women and children." Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Hadith 258

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."

 

[Sabour]

one answer -

When I said that the Quran instructs Muslims to dislike non-believers 500 times and that the book creates an "us vs. them" message, you said:



Am I interpreting your response correctly? I'm not quite sure how to understand this response - sorry. Can say it a different way?

Sure

Quraan doesn't divide "us vs them". It tells us about the Jews, their actions, how God had mercy with them and God tells us how they went wrong so that we don''t do the same. That is the reason you find many verses about the Jews.

About Christianity, the same thing. God tells us what they did so we won't do like them.

Why the Jews and Christians?

Because Jews had many prophets sent to them. And Christianity had the prophet Jesus peace be upon him. In other words, the massage of Islam was with the prophets Moses peace be upon him and Jesus peace be upon him. In other words, followers of these prophets were muslims at that time.

You said it is dividing "us vs them". Is it really?

To answer that we have to look at the verses talking about dealing with them.

Then you said that you could tell be the correct interpretation. So let's start out really easily with the first two Surah. Surah 1 says that Allah is (forever) angry with non-beleivers. Surah 2 says that Allah makes non-believers wander blindly, that Allah made them to not believe (I wonder, so he can torment them?)...

Nope brother. Let's reflect on the verses a little.

If that is the case, would it be possible for any Jew to enter Islam?

And about what you said in Sura 2. If that was true, than Islam would have started with one man and ended there. And that would be the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.


Allah is not "forever angry with them". Repentance and accepting of Islam is open to all people. Allah is "angry" with their actions that they did. This means don't do like them. Any Jewish can be a muslim. It doesn't say no anywhere.


For the second sure, the word unbeliever means those who know the truth about God but don't want to follow.