Does the Quran promote peaceful values? (I claim it does not.)

[cocokorina]

First I didn't say all I said most.

Second, how do you know it is brainwashing. Why generalize for something happened during WW2?.

i just gave you an example of the power of brainwashing. you stated it must be something 'amazing' that those people confessed about adultery while knowing they will be stoned to death.s o i also gave you an example of where people blow themselves up and kill themselves because they are brainwashed into thinking that it's something of honor..

Thirdly, if you think that Islam is a religion where you can walk freely and do whatever you want than sorry it is not.

thats exactly what i have been saying all this time! thank you for making my point. how can you claim islam promotes peace if it's against free speech?

Part of the repent is taking those punishments.

you're correct. and this is why, islam and quran donot promote peaceful values.

Can these punishments be considered today. There is controversy about that but most scholars say No. Because there isn't an Islamic caliphat and the message of Islam is not preperly conveyed.

there is no proper islamic caliphate because islam cannot be implemented in a peaceful way. it never has.

So tell me, when a country is in war situations, do they approach those who are against them with open arms?

i am not talking about waging wars against those who are threatening you with force. but to kill those who simply mock and insult islam is whats wrong.

They give the opposition information about you, they fight you from the inside, they are looking for any moment you take your eyes off them so they can inflict damage or kill.

We should approach with open arms and a smile on the face and forgiveness?

who are you talking about? i am simply talking about those who insulted mohammad and said bad things about him, not the ones who waged war against him.

Nope you didn't see both sides. You saw muslims and not Islam.

i was raised in a muslim home, studied islam with alot of detail. please donot tell me i havn't seen the real islam. i used to pray 5 t imes a day, fast during ramadan and even during 6 days in shawwal which is sunnah. I never even missed fajr prayer in many years! i used to read quran with translation, tafsir, hadith from bukhari and muslim. so please donot tell me how i dont know about islam.

Nope. I think if the prophet was killing whoever didn't believe in him we would have been now all muslims.

he ordered killing of those who mocked him and said 'bad' things about him.

"During [a military expedition], a woman was found killed, so [the Prophet Muhammad] forbade the killing of women and children." Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Hadith 258

but he took women as sex slaves after wars. how many slave girls can one take? there is no limit even to how many women a man can sleep with.
4:25 And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess.

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."

why is it that after the wars, the women became property of mohammad and his buddies? a muslim man can marry christian or jewish woman, but muslim womman cannot! muslim man can divorce his wife easily but she must go to court to obtain divorce if he's not giving her one.
what about this super sexist hadith"
Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, ‘I have never received any good from you.”
so being ungrateful to your hsuband makes you burn in Hell. talk about the superiority men are given !

 

[Sabour]

i just gave you an example of the power of brainwashing. you stated it must be something 'amazing' that those people confessed about adultery while knowing they will be stoned to death.s o i also gave you an example of where people blow themselves up and kill themselves because they are brainwashed into thinking that it's something of honor..

The first is not an example. It is an act which was done. you explain it as brainwashing. I explain as the one being a believer about the justice of God and truth about the prophet.

For the second example I think you should stop seeing what "muslims" are doing because it is stated SEVERAL times in the Quraan that killing self is a sin and God forbids us to do that.

thats exactly what i have been saying all this time! thank you for making my point. how can you claim islam promotes peace if it's against free speech?

I didn't mean about the freedom of speech, I meant about the actions.

you're correct. and this is why, islam and quran donot promote peaceful values.

Let me ask you this do you believe in heaven and Hell ?

there is no proper islamic caliphate because islam cannot be implemented in a peaceful way. it never has.

It always had.

Look, just to show you something.

Whenever I deal with any non muslim, first thing they do is attack the Quraan. When I refute all their claims, they start jumping to Hadith and talking about what you are talking about now.

The purpose of these is just to destroy Islam. I mean really, take a look at the hadith they focus on. ALways repeated always the same. Look how they put Quraan out of context.

Remember when we discussed Quraanic verses. Haven't you been convinced?

You are disregarding hundreds of hadith and focusing on minor ones.

There is heaven and hell, There is life now and hereafter. There are wars. There is a prophet to deliver a message.

There are hundreds of hadith showing the mercy of the prophet and how he dealt with those who treated him badly in a good way. Why we disregard those?

I mean think of it, would such punishments exist if Muhammad was comming up with something of his own to please the people?

i am not talking about waging wars against those who are threatening you with force. but to kill those who simply mock and insult islam is whats wrong.

Who said it wasn't in a case of war ?

i was raised in a muslim home, studied islam with alot of detail. please donot tell me i havn't seen the real islam. i used to pray 5 t imes a day, fast during ramadan and even during 6 days in shawwal which is sunnah. I never even missed fajr prayer in many years! i used to read quran with translation, tafsir, hadith from bukhari and muslim. so please donot tell me how i dont know about islam.

Okay I didn't know that sorry.

he ordered killing of those who mocked him and said 'bad' things about him.

If he was killing for the sake of killing, why didn't he order to kill all the disbelievers . Wouldn't it be a shortcut ?

but he took women as sex slaves after wars. how many slave girls can one take? there is no limit even to how many women a man can sleep with.
4:25 And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess.

They are not sex slaves.

First thing we have to know about right hand possession is that islam didn’t create it. It was already there. Islam restricted it only in the case of war.

What happens after a war ends to the wives of the defeated armies? Women were treated horribly. It is like winning army starts getting revenge from enemy by doing stuff to their women and children. That is what happens in almost every war! That what used to happen before Islam came. This surely is still happening in non-Islamic world.

However this is not permitted in islam. Women were taken into custody because where else should they go? So women become custody of state. These women go to the men that were fighting. These men are responsible for the food, cloth and they should take care of them. But those women have to work for their keep. So this “right hand possession” came to give special treatment to those women. Where else can they go?

why is it that after the wars, the women became property of mohammad and his buddies? a muslim man can marry christian or jewish woman, but muslim womman cannot! muslim man can divorce his wife easily but she must go to court to obtain divorce if he's not giving her one.
what about this super sexist hadith"

The first thing a husband would do when they have a "minor" disagreement, he would slaughter the Prophet peace be upon him.

While If a muslim man married non muslim woman, he won't do that because he believes in her prophet. If he does slaughter him, he is not a muslim anymore.

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, ‘I have never received any good from you.”
so being ungrateful to your hsuband makes you burn in Hell. talk about the superiority men are given !

I think we are answering that on the other thread.

 

[cocokorina]

The first is not an example. It is an act which was done. you explain it as brainwashing. I explain as the one being a believer about the justice of God and truth about the prophet.
For the second example I think you should stop seeing what "muslims" are doing because it is stated SEVERAL times in the Quraan that killing self is a sin and God forbids us to do that.

the point is, when you tell someone their sins will be forgiven if they let themselves get punished by Mohammad and that they will go to heavens forever, they will confess. very simply. nothing amazing in that. happens all the time. brainwashing is very powerful, as it can be seen even today. n

Let me ask you this do you believe in heaven and Hell ?

No.

Look, just to show you something.
Whenever I deal with any non muslim, first thing they do is attack the Quraan. When I refute all their claims, they start jumping to Hadith and talking about what you are talking about now.

you 'refute' claims by giving your 'context'. there are so many errors in quran and many violent, sexist things. but muslims always defend them by suggesting the meaning is different here, the context is different there. same old lame reasons, none of those make sense. for example, the wife beating ayat is always defended by making hte word 'strike' as hitting very lightly. who are you trying to fool? anyone with a brain can see that ayat means to HIT women if they are being disobedient. very simple. yet muslims will try to come up with lame excuses.

The purpose of these is just to destroy Islam. I mean really, take a look at the hadith they focus on. ALways repeated always the same. Look how they put Quraan out of context.

and look at how muslims like about what quraan and hadith suggest? there are so many hadith that shows mohammad was a very sexist man but either those hadith become 'false' or there is a way to defend them by saying 'oh he meant it for this and not that'. trust me, i have been on the other side as well where i used to defend quran and islam too, so i dont blame you. i have said all the same things you're saying now. but thankfully i came to my senses as i grew up and was able to find blatant lies, sexism, misogyny, violence and intolerance in islam.

Remember when we discussed Quraanic verses. Haven't you been convinced?

no i have not been convinced. i still find quran to be violent. i only gave you hadith examples because you kept defending quranic verses by using the context excuse.

You are disregarding hundreds of hadith and focusing on minor ones.

whats a minor hadith? hadith where mohammad tells he saw majority of people in hell as being women was a minor one?? who decides which hadith are minor?

There is heaven and hell, There is life now and hereafter. There are wars. There is a prophet to deliver a message.

you can believe in all that you want. but you cannot expect everyone else to follow something blindly

There are hundreds of hadith showing the mercy of the prophet and how he dealt with those who treated him badly in a good way. Why we disregard those?

no dont disregard those. i never said prophet never showed mercy. yes he did show kindness on many occasion. but he also showed sexist behavior, violence, vengeance, intolerance, on many occasion as well. this just proves he couldn't have been a real prophet. a real prophet wouldnt have those bad qualities.

If he was killing for the sake of killing, why didn't he order to kill all the disbelievers . Wouldn't it be a shortcut ?

he did kill many non-believers who didn't accept islam. even hitler tried to kill all jews but he couldn't. many still survived. mohammad also tried but he couldn't. its hard to wipe out an entire population, no matter how hard one tries. especially back when they didn't have advanced weapons. how many can one kill with swords and spears? he did kill quite alot but many were left behind.

They are not sex slaves.
First thing we have to know about right hand possession is that islam didn’t create it. It was already there. Islam restricted it only in the case of war.

islam shouldn't have allowed something like that. jsut because it was present before islam doesnt mean islam had to allow it to happen. a divine religion should have put an end to it. islam treats women like such objects. after wars, you can capture them and sleep with them. how terrible is that

What happens after a war ends to the wives of the defeated armies? Women were treated horribly. It is like winning army starts getting revenge from enemy by doing stuff to their women and children. That is what happens in almost every war! That what used to happen before Islam came. This surely is still happening in non-Islamic world.

islam did the same exact thing! those women were given to all the muslim men and they took them and had sex with them. this is in addition to keeping 4 wives. what a great religion for men!!

However this is not permitted in islam. Women were taken into custody because where else should they go?

why should they be with these muslim men who killedl their husbands??

So women become custody of state. These women go to the men that were fighting. These men are responsible for the food, cloth and they should take care of them. But those women have to work for their keep. So this “right hand possession” came to give special treatment to those women. Where else can they go?

why? why must women become thsoe mens responsiblity? why does islam make women so dependent on men? khadija before islam was never dependent. she supported mohammad financially! if its a mans duty to provide, why didnt mohammad provide for khadija?
and even if those women were to be take care of by the state, how does that allow men to sleep with them? cant men help out those poor women and not expect sex in return? why treat women like sex objects?

The first thing a husband would do when they have a "minor" disagreement, he would slaughter the Prophet peace be upon him.

While If a muslim man married non muslim woman, he won't do that because he believes in her prophet. If he does slaughter him, he is not a muslim anymore.

so a nonmuslim woman wouldn't 'slaughter' the prophet? what kind of illogical reasoning is this?

 

[icehorse]

One Answer,

This is the second time in this thread that a person defending the Quran has declared victory. Of course you have no reason to trust me, but I promise you that if you *actually* put together a convincing argument in defense of the Quran, I'll admit it. So far, no one in this thread has come anywhere near offering a convincing defense of the Quran.

For just one example, there is an open question concerning the 2nd Sarah. The way I read it, Allah created some people so that they cannot believe in him. That's how he made them. It's not enough for them to say they believe. He can convict them of thoughts crimes. And for those people Allah will send them to hell. How can that not be the cruelest, most violent, most morally reprehensible idea imaginable?

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[Sabour]

the point is, when you tell someone their sins will be forgiven if they let themselves get punished by Mohammad and that they will go to heavens forever, they will confess. very simply. nothing amazing in that. happens all the time. brainwashing is very powerful, as it can be seen even today. n

It is not simple. He is not saying that confess, I will pray for you and your sins will be forgiven. There is a death penalty.

I think you are underestimating what they did. They are not crazy and stupid. You are assuming they are.

Secondly, don't you think that if the prophet was making that up he wouldn't put that punishment? Because his main concern will be bringing people in. No?

you 'refute' claims by giving your 'context'. there are so many errors in quran and many violent, sexist things. but muslims always defend them by suggesting the meaning is different here, the context is different there. same old lame reasons, none of those make sense. for example, the wife beating ayat is always defended by making hte word 'strike' as hitting very lightly. who are you trying to fool? anyone with a brain can see that ayat means to HIT women if they are being disobedient. very simple. yet muslims will try to come up with lame excuses.

Sorry. I have been honest with you from the first word I directed to you till the last. When there is a topic concerning something, you take the whole text. You don't take seperate sentences and judge. You were having a discussion with a member and telling him how do you reject the hadith about prayer. Now you are rejecting the hadith concerning the beating.

Which side you are adapting? If you already made your mind about Islam and you just want to throw all what you think again and again without taking into consideration what I am saying than please tell me. I thought we were clear about the beating part.

The reason I came to this forums is to show the real Islam and remove some of the misconceptions as much as I can.

Nothing makes me more happy than a logical disucssion. But every time we move away from a subject, you bring it back in. If we don't solve a problem and the discussion isn't convincing please tell me so that we don't move away from the subject, that is if you are interested in the discussion.

and look at how muslims like about what quraan and hadith suggest? there are so many hadith that shows mohammad was a very sexist man but either those hadith become 'false' or there is a way to defend them by saying 'oh he meant it for this and not that'. trust me, i have been on the other side as well where i used to defend quran and islam too, so i dont blame you. i have said all the same things you're saying now. but thankfully i came to my senses as i grew up and was able to find blatant lies, sexism, misogyny, violence and intolerance in islam.

Sorry. If that was true, I would expect your arguement to convince me and the others too. The more discussions I am having, the more appreciation for Islam I am having.

I am blessed for what I have. I am more than a logical person than you ever think.

A year from now, I wasn't a practicing muslim. I also had major questions about Islam.

Do you know that everything happening around us is part of the prophecies made by our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him?

no i have not been convinced. i still find quran to be violent. i only gave you hadith examples because you kept defending quranic verses by using the context excuse.

The context is not an excuse !!!!!!!!

She is pretty ugly.

She is pretty.

See what removal of a word can make to a sentence ?

If you are not convinced than please let us not move away from the subject. I didn't say are you convinced about the whole Quraan. I said weren't you convinced about the beating part?

whats a minor hadith? hadith where mohammad tells he saw majority of people in hell as being women was a minor one?? who decides which hadith are minor?

By minor ones I meant the number.

no dont disregard those. i never said prophet never showed mercy. yes he did show kindness on many occasion. but he also showed sexist behavior, violence, vengeance, intolerance, on many occasion as well. this just proves he couldn't have been a real prophet. a real prophet wouldnt have those bad qualities.

His message was to be shared with the whole of humanity. There are enemies. There are wars. Throwing candies at those who throw bullets doesn't solve the problem.

he did kill many non-believers who didn't accept islam. even hitler tried to kill all jews but he couldn't. many still survived. mohammad also tried but he couldn't. its hard to wipe out an entire population, no matter how hard one tries. especially back when they didn't have advanced weapons. how many can one kill with swords and spears? he did kill quite alot but many were left behind.

The prophet's shield was mortgaged to a Jewish person when he died and lent from him money.

His guide in the desert was Jewish.

He stood up when a dead body of a jewish was passing by.

Quraan clearly says you can deal with non believers if they are not fighting you.

islam shouldn't have allowed something like that. jsut because it was present before islam doesnt mean islam had to allow it to happen. a divine religion should have put an end to it. islam treats women like such objects. after wars, you can capture them and sleep with them. how terrible is that

And when wars ended and their husband dies. Who were to take care of them and feed them?

And the first good deed one would consider at that time was setting slaves free. They were going to slave markets, buy slaves, and set them free.

If someone killed by mistake, he must set a slave free.

so a nonmuslim woman wouldn't 'slaughter' the prophet? what kind of illogical reasoning is this?

If my wife slaughtered my prophet in a moment of madness, I can understand. Besides, I don't think she can be violent with me can she?

 

[Sabour]

This is the second time in this thread that a person defending the Quran has declared victory.

I didn't do that

Of course you have no reason to trust me, but I promise you that if you *actually* put together a convincing argument in defense of the Quran, I'll admit it. So far, no one in this thread has come anywhere near offering a convincing defense of the Quran.

I trust you. Somehow I can see through the comments who just throws things and who is actually willing to listen,think and reflect. I was able to see that in your second comment.

About these concepts, I am not sure if I can answer you in full because I don't know the verses you are referring to, so I will talk in general.

For just one example, there is an open question concerning the 2nd Sarah. The way I read it, Allah created some people so that they cannot believe in him.

Nope. Allah has given us the free will. Every one of us has the free will. We believe that if anyone searched for God form all his heart, God will not leave him.


I guess you are saying that because of the verses which say God guides whoever he wants. That is absolutely true.

If I am a teacher in a class and I want to put grades for participation, I can put whatever grade for whoever I want. But I am fair to my students so I give them what they deserve.

55:60 Is the reward for good [anything] but good?

That's how he made them. It's not enough for them to say they believe.

Islam is not just about faith. It is about faith and good deeds.

I guess the verses you are referring to are about the hypocrites who said we are muslims by tongue, and performed prayer with the muslims. But in the heart they didn't believe. If God wants, he can make them believe. God can just say be, and it is. But do they deserve it based on their actions? remember they have free will

He can convict them of thoughts crimes.

I can't clearly answer that because I don't know what do you mean.

Humans are always under the test in this life. Every one is accountable for his deeds.

Remember we have free will and we can freely react to different situations in different ways.

And for those people Allah will send them to hell.

It depends on their faith and deeds.


Please I know you didn't have satisfactory answers because your questions were broad. I didn't know what verses you are referring to. If you can please quote for me the verses so I would be in a better understand your question.

Also I would appreciate if you can quote my comment so I would remember directly our conversation because I am having discussions on a number of threads.

Thank you.

 

[cocokorina]

It is not simple. He is not saying that confess, I will pray for you and your sins will be forgiven. There is a death penalty.
I think you are underestimating what they did. They are not crazy and stupid. You are assuming they are.

they were just as brainwashed as those suicide bombers of today.

Secondly, don't you think that if the prophet was making that up he wouldn't put that punishment? Because his main concern will be bringing people in. No?

he wanted those punishment to make sure islam is enforced on all people. very obvious motive.

Sorry. I have been honest with you from the first word I directed to you till the last. When there is a topic concerning something, you take the whole text. You don't take seperate sentences and judge. You were having a discussion with a member and telling him how do you reject the hadith about prayer. Now you are rejecting the hadith concerning the beating.

do you even know the real story behind verse 4:34?
"A woman complained to Muhammad that her husband slapped her on the face, (which was still marked by the slap). At first the prophet said to her: "Get even with him", but then added: "Wait until I think about it". Later on, Allah revealed 4:34 to Muhammad, after which the prophet said: "We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best."[SIZE=-1]

[/SIZE]

Which side you are adapting? If you already made your mind about Islam and you just want to throw all what you think again and again without taking into consideration what I am saying than please tell me. I thought we were clear about the beating part.

no were were not clear on the wife beating part. its obvious islam allows men to beat their wives. stop trying to find excuses for the word 'strike'. if allah didn't want men to beat their wives, that verse wouldn't have been there!

Nothing makes me more happy than a logical disucssion. But every time we move away from a subject, you bring it back in. If we don't solve a problem and the discussion isn't convincing please tell me so that we don't move away from the subject, that is if you are interested in the discussion.

you can defend that verse all you want but it doesn't change the facts. and its not just one verse, there are countless hadith aswell where mohammad shows sexist behavior.

Sorry. If that was true, I would expect your arguement to convince me and the others too. The more discussions I am having, the more appreciation for Islam I am having.

good for you. i didn't come here to convince you to leave islam but simply state some true facts about islamic intolerance and sexist ideology.

A year from now, I wasn't a practicing muslim. I also had major questions about Islam.
Do you know that everything happening around us is part of the prophecies made by our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him?

and i was a practicing muslim few years ago but left islam when i saw the real islam.

His message was to be shared with the whole of humanity. There are enemies. There are wars. Throwing candies at those who throw bullets doesn't solve the problem.

The prophet's shield was mortgaged to a Jewish person when he died and lent from him money.
His guide in the desert was Jewish.
He stood up when a dead body of a jewish was passing by.
Quraan clearly says you can deal with non believers if they are not fighting you.

Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.
mohammad also ordered killing of those who had insulted him.
It is obvious from many hadith and narrations that mohammad and the sahabas had the right to kill whoever insulted him. if a person who insulted the mohammad, and then repents, mohammad would forgive him IF he apologized and converted to islam. why is it that in sharia, anyone who mocks or insults mohammad gets death penalty? its because prophet mohammad ordered this.

And when wars ended and their husband dies. Who were to take care of them and feed them?

are women like children who must be fed by these men? and even if they took care of them, that gave them the right to sleep with them?
why does islam make women so dependent on men?

And the first good deed one would consider at that time was setting slaves free. They were going to slave markets, buy slaves, and set them free.
If someone killed by mistake, he must set a slave free.

islam should have abolished slavery all together. Abraham Lincoln did it! Mohammad could have t oo, especially if he was an actual prophet.

If my wife slaughtered my prophet in a moment of madness, I can understand. Besides, I don't think she can be violent with me can she?

what makes you think a nonmuslim man would be violent with his muslim wife?

 

[Sabour]

they were just as brainwashed as those suicide bombers of today.
he wanted those punishment to make sure islam is enforced on all people. very obvious motive.
do you even know the real story behind verse 4:34?
"A woman complained to Muhammad that her husband slapped her on the face, (which was still marked by the slap). At first the prophet said to her: "Get even with him", but then added: "Wait until I think about it". Later on, Allah revealed 4:34 to Muhammad, after which the prophet said: "We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best."[SIZE=-1]

[/SIZE] no were were not clear on the wife beating part. its obvious islam allows men to beat their wives. stop trying to find excuses for the word 'strike'. if allah didn't want men to beat their wives, that verse wouldn't have been there!

you can defend that verse all you want but it doesn't change the facts. and its not just one verse, there are countless hadith aswell where mohammad shows sexist behavior.
good for you. i didn't come here to convince you to leave islam but simply state some true facts about islamic intolerance and sexist ideology.

and i was a practicing muslim few years ago but left islam when i saw the real islam.

His message was to be shared with the whole of humanity. There are enemies. There are wars. Throwing candies at those who throw bullets doesn't solve the problem.

Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.
mohammad also ordered killing of those who had insulted him.
It is obvious from many hadith and narrations that mohammad and the sahabas had the right to kill whoever insulted him. if a person who insulted the mohammad, and then repents, mohammad would forgive him IF he apologized and converted to islam. why is it that in sharia, anyone who mocks or insults mohammad gets death penalty? its because prophet mohammad ordered this.
are women like children who must be fed by these men? and even if they took care of them, that gave them the right to sleep with them?
why does islam make women so dependent on men?

islam should have abolished slavery all together. Abraham Lincoln did it! Mohammad could have t oo, especially if he was an actual prophet.

what makes you think a nonmuslim man would be violent with his muslim wife?

I think there are too many points and threads can be made out of what we are discussing.

Can we move point by point if you are interested ?

In that case tell me where to start.

 

[icehorse]

One Answer,

Thanks for the good discussion.

Specifically I was talking about Surah 2, verses 6-20. I was looking at those verses collectively to say that:

- Allah made these non-believers
- He knows what they really believe, so he knows if they lie about believing. This is the idea of a thought crime, the idea that you can be convicted not only for your actions, but also, you can be convicted based only on what you believe.
- Allah takes away their light.
- Allah will torment them in hell.

So to summarize, in these verses we learn that Allah made some people to be unbelievers and they are doomed.

 

[Sabour]

One Answer,

Thanks for the good discussion.

Specifically I was talking about Surah 2, verses 6-20. I was looking at those verses collectively to say that:

- Allah made these non-believers
- He knows what they really believe, so he knows if they lie about believing. This is the idea of a thought crime, the idea that you can be convicted not only for your actions, but also, you can be convicted based only on what you believe.
- Allah takes away their light.
- Allah will torment them in hell.

So to summarize, in these verses we learn that Allah made some people to be unbelievers and they are doomed.

The verses from 6 to 20 talks about two kinds of people.

Verses 6 and 7 talks about those who see the truth and deny it. So no matter how much you speak to them they want understand. The verse says that Allah has sealed their heats, hearing and vision but this is because of their own hands. They are the ones who clearly saw the truth but decided to act like they didn't.

The second kind of people the rest of the verses talk about are the hypocrites.

Verse 8 Sahih International
And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

And the rest of the verses describe them in detail.

Similarlly, all what they are recieving is from their own hands.


In both cases, the punishment Allah is giving is because of their own hands.

They both know the truth. They both have right answer, but one decided not to work by it and deny it, the other group decided to pretend that they accepted it.

I repeat that if all non muslims were meant in verses 6 and 7 than islam would have been a 1 man religion.

About the light in verse 17, the hypocrites were living with muslims but not following from their heart. That is why they are as those who kindle fire to see arount them ( by choosing islam) but when the fire was illuminated, they couldn't see (because they pretending).

The expression used is Allah took their light. But this is because of their own actions.

Why this expression is used?

I would say to show that Allah is capable of anything if He wants. He can make them believe if he wants. But what you get is based on what you do.

 

[icehorse]

One Answer -

Take me for example. I read the Quran. I simply don't believe. (FWIW, I don't believe the Bible either.) It's not about being hypocritical or resistant. It's about me using the brain I was born with. I read it, I don't believe it. I could huff and puff and squint my eyes and pray and pray - I still wouldn't believe it. It is simply how I was made.

So the way I read these verses, if I lived in a Muslim country, I might have to pretend to believe - just for my own well being in the society. But it wouldn't matter - Allah would see my hypocrisy and I'd be doomed. Right? It seems that a Muslim must believe that I'm doomed?

 

[Sabour]

One Answer -

Take me for example. I read the Quran. I simply don't believe. (FWIW, I don't believe the Bible either.) It's not about being hypocritical or resistant. It's about me using the brain I was born with. I read it, I don't believe it. I could huff and puff and squint my eyes and pray and pray - I still wouldn't believe it. It is simply how I was made.

So the way I read these verses, if I lived in a Muslim country, I might have to pretend to believe - just for my own well being in the society. But it wouldn't matter - Allah would see my hypocrisy and I'd be doomed. Right? It seems that a Muslim must believe that I'm doomed?

If you read it and wasn't convinced, you fall neither to the two categories. About your comment.

But my question is why you should pretend to do it? If you are doing it out of fear and you are not convinced by it than you are not a hypocrite. You are not doing it for personal gains. You are doing it because you are forced. But that scenario isn't likely to happen. We don't kill those who are not muslims or force them. There is no compulsion in religion. This is an explicit statement.


:angel2::angel2:

 

[icehorse]

I can't cite the verse, but I thought that Muslims believe that if a person learns of Islam and rejects it, that person is doomed... no?

 

[Sabour]

It depends on many factors. We are in no place to judge that.

Was the message conveyed properly ? Did he see it is the truth? Did he get answer to all his questions ?

Nobody can tell whether a person would be doomed or not because we only see the outside we dont see the inside.

Allah has 99 attributes. We don't understand with our limited mind all the factors. However we have the guidelines.

The only thing we are sure of is that at the day of judgement no one will object to the justice of Allah.

 

[icehorse]

Do you know the expression "he was true to his nature" ?

 

[Sabour]

Do you know the expression "he was true to his nature" ?

I can't relate. What do you mean.

 

[icehorse]

Being true to your nature means you live consistently with how you were made. If you are good at painting, you paint. If you're musical, you make music. If you like to explore, perhaps you become a scientist.

I trust the scholars who spent years studying and researching and working to translate the Quran into english. I expect they are experts. It seems clear to me that within the first few Surahs of the Quran, Allah is all about fear, anger and submission. And it doesn't matter what I say or how I act, if I simply cannot believe in the Islamic God, then, according to the Quran I'm doomed.

And Muslims know it. And they are instructed to mistrust me. They are instructed to suspect that I will always lie to them. They are instructed that I am sub-human.

This is not a peaceful set of messages. This is a horrible set of messages to expose children to...

So One-answer -It seems to me that you are a tolerant, thoughtful person. My claim is that those qualities were innate in you and you learned them from your family and culture. Further, my claim is that you did NOT learn this from the Quran. Instead, you have had to work hard to figure out a way to get a peaceful, tolerant message out of the Quran.

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[Sabour]

I trust the scholars who spent years studying and researching and working to translate the Quran into english.

Which translation you are talking about? Sahih International?

I am not saying the translation is wrong. But you are misunderstanding the concept.

Islam touches on everything. There is heaven and Hell. It describes who goes to heaven and who goes to hell and set the way one should follow.

In life there are wars. Islam tells out how to deal in case someone attacks us.

Islam touches on all things in life including bad things and how to react.

Is this a problem? How can it be realistic if it doesn't touch on these?

I expect they are experts. It seems clear to me that within the first few Surahs of the Quran, Allah is all about fear, anger and submission.

I explained the meaning of the disbelievers and the meaning of the hypocrites who the verses are talking about. I explained their actions.

Why would you stop there?

There are 99 attributes for God in Islam. Do you know them?

Do you know the verses in the Quraan that show how merciful God is?

Do you know the verses talking about righteousness?

And it doesn't matter what I say or how I act, if I simply cannot believe in the Islamic God, then, according to the Quran I'm doomed.

Let us go the other way.

Describe for me how you believe God is.

And Muslims know it. And they are instructed to mistrust me. They are instructed to suspect that I will always lie to them. They are instructed that I am sub-human.

:no::no:

60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

So One-answer -It seems to me that you are a tolerant, thoughtful person. My claim is that those qualities were innate in you and you learned them from your family and culture. Further, my claim is that you did NOT learn this from the Quran. Instead, you have had to work hard to figure out a way to get a peaceful, tolerant message out of the Quran.

You have no idea how wrong you are. It is the exact opposite !

 

[icehorse]

Which translation you are talking about? Sahih International?

I have three different translations, plus a website that cocolia42 pointed me to earlier in this thread. When I cross reference these different translations they seem very similar. Small differences to be sure, but mostly similar. The version I read completely is the "King Fahd Complex", translation by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan.

The reason I picked this one is because I believe it's the translation that has been most widely printed and distributed around the world. So *I think* (not sure), that if someone in the world picks up an English Quran, they're most likely to pick up a copy of this version. I've read that it has been printed over 260 million times.

I think cocolia42 might feels it's a bit on the harsh side, and that could be, but if I'm right, it's the one that's out there in the world.

Let us go the other way. Describe for me how you believe God is.

Well I'm not a theist, in other words I've never heard anyone (or read anything) that explains a God I can believe. So far...

But the idea that a God would create me with a brain, give me horrible evidence for believing in his existence, and then punish me for not believing (based on such poor evidence), strikes me as a cruel God.

Next you quoted 60:8, I'll trust your reference and grant that this sounds like a tolerant passage. (Although in the case of Islam, "tolerance" is another sticky issue.) But there are many, many, many other verses that instruct Muslims to distrust non-believers.

So here we have an example of conflicting verses. I'm sure you'll say that I'm simply not understanding the context or some such argument. The problem is that hundreds of millions of people read this book, and very, very few of them are scholars.

They read the words in front of them!

You have no idea how wrong you are. It is the exact opposite !

By this I understand you to mean that you learned tolerance for non-believers from the Quran? Is that correct?

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[Sabour]

I have three different translations, plus a website that cocolia42 pointed me to earlier in this thread. When I cross reference these different translations they seem very similar. Small differences to be sure, but mostly similar. The version I read completely is the "King Fahd Complex", translation by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan.

In that case I don't have any problem with what you are using. Anyways, I just that you use this website, The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

You can directly check the verses we are talking about.

Normally I quote from the Sahih international version, unless I see that the other verses explain the verse better, as I am a native Arabic speaker.

I think cocolia42 might feels it's a bit on the harsh side, and that could be, but if I'm right, it's the one that's out there in the world.

I am not sure what you meant with that.

Well I'm not a theist, in other words I've never heard anyone (or read anything) that explains a God I can believe. So far...

Okay than let me introduce to you chapter 112 of the Quraan which is from 4 verses. And than the "greatest" verse of the Quraan, and see what you think.

112:1-4
1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
3 He neither begets nor is born,
4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

2:255 Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

But the idea that a God would create me with a brain, give me horrible evidence for believing in his existence, and then punish me for not believing (based on such poor evidence), strikes me as a cruel God.

Let us discuss horrible it is

Next you quoted 60:8, I'll trust your reference and grant that this sounds like a tolerant passage. (Although in the case of Islam, "tolerance" is another sticky issue.) But there are many, many, many other verses that instruct Muslims to distrust non-believers.

Even if you trust me 100 percent, check the verses from the site I gave you.

41:34-36

34 And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel [evil] by that [deed] which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity [will become] as though he was a devoted friend.

35 But none is granted it except those who are patient, and none is granted it except one having a great portion [of good].

36 And if there comes to you from Satan an evil suggestion, then seek refuge in Allah . Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

6:108 And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.

5:8 O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

So here we have an example of conflicting verses. I'm sure you'll say that I'm simply not understanding the context or some such argument. The problem is that hundreds of millions of people read this book, and very, very few of them are scholars.

They read the words in front of them!

Lol. You know the answer. Anyways, First question, Do you agree that if someone came to attack you, or your country, you should fight back ?

By this I understand you to mean that you learned tolerance for non-believers from the Quran? Is that correct?

Not only that.

I can't even describe how my whole life changed ever I came a practicing muslim.