Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Rick O'Shez]

Does consciousness exist in time and space?

You tell us. Even better, tell us about your personal experience of cosmic consciousness. You keep saying it's an experiential thing, so tell us about the experience. If there is one.

 

[Midnight Rain]

It does not follow that if particles 'exhibit matter qualites', therefore they are matter. However, virtual particles can appear as 'matter', which, according to the article posted, is the case. A few excepts:

What is the definition of matter? How do we determine if something is or is not matter?

"Theory says it [ie; mass] is created by the force that binds quarks together, called the strong nuclear force. In quantum terms, the strong force is carried by a field of virtual particles called gluons, randomly popping into existence and disappearing again. The energy of these vacuum fluctuations has to be included in the total mass of the proton and neutron.

Until recently, lattice QCD calculations concentrated on the virtual gluons, and ignored another important component of the vacuum: pairs of virtual quarks and antiquarks.

Virtual quarks make the calculations much more complicated, involving a matrix of more than 10,000 trillion numbers, says team member Stephan Dürr of the John von Neumann Institute for Computing in Jülich, Germany.

That will allow physicists to test QCD, and look for effects beyond known physics. For now, Dürr's calculation shows that QCD describes quark-based particles accurately, and tells us that most of our mass comes from virtual quarks and gluons fizzing away in the quantum vacuum.

The Higgs field is also thought to make a small contribution, giving mass to individual quarks as well as to electrons and some other particles. The Higgs field creates mass out of the quantum vacuum too, in the form of virtual Higgs bosons. So if the LHC confirms that the Higgs exists,

it will mean all reality is virtual.

Its pretty neat but mostly meaningless. Functionally and empirically matter exists. What matter "is" and how it functions on the subatomic level is another issue all together.

 

[Robert.Evans]

So do you exist? Because if you don't exist and I don't exist then how are we arguing? My sentience is not an illusion (or maybe it is dun dun duuun) but not in the way you are talking about.

I am a defined portion because I am an entity that is able to be defined. I can pick up a single rock on the side of the road and see that it is not some continuous solution called the "road". Our sun is separate from our planet but we all make up the solar system. Our solar system is separate from other solar systems but we all make up the galaxy. So on and so forth. I can define myself because I display different properties than other things around me. I have sentience enough to see and understand what is around me and understand that I am both part of the universe but not necessarily part of everything else.

I used to think that way as well, and argued the same. In the sense that we are human and physical, and in that sense alone, I agree. But he, in my opinion, is talking about something deeper, far deeper, and is, at the end of it all, the true reality. As @Spiny Norman says, if you drop a brick on your foot, it still hurts. So you might say, welcome to reality. But this thread is speaking of the fundamental part of reality that turns out to be everything. And as much as ''I'' argued for the 'I' he is right in saying it does not exist. All that exists is ONE Consciousness. If anything is called ''I'', it is ''that''... haha

 

[Robert.Evans]

So long as there is the appearance of mass it means there is mass. Mass is having defined shape with other qualities that I can get into if your interested. Mass does exist. Its just not what we thought it was 100 years ago.

But this is the same idea, is it not? You are looking at it from a worldly point of view. He is looking far deeper. He might say, however, that he is looking at at the same view..haha . But we are easily fooled by our senses, which is a good idea if you are standing on a road and a truck is coming towards you. But the reality of the truck and the one that percieves it is they are one and the same. There is One Consciousness, and that is everything we see and are.

 

[Robert.Evans]

But wave and ocean are not two distinct things; they are inseparable. Since wave cannot exist without ocean, the ocean must be doing 'wave'. On top of that, there is no such thing as a 'wave'. 'Wave' is just energy-form. It does not exist as a static thing. For it to be a wave, it must always be 'waving'. IOW, 'wave' is not a thing, but an action, and therefore, an illusion, just as 'I' is an illusion.

There is no whirlpool that whirls.

There is no river that flows.

There is no 'it' that rains.

No thinker of thoughts.

No experiencer of the experience.

There is only this present consciousness, without an agent of consciousness called 'I'.

I'm sure you are banging your head against a wall a lot of the times, haha, but I get that now. That is good. For there to be a wave, it has to remain. It is just the energy of the ocean, yes?

 

[Robert.Evans]

No, "wave" is the label we give to the perception of water in motion. "I" is the label we give to the perception of thoughts in motion.
Go and sit by the sea for half an hour and really look at some waves. Drop all this theorising and really experience the present. Then you will see.

I could agree with that, accept for the fact that it's wrong. haha.
I mean, its not really, yet it is. Perhaps I perceive it incorrectly, but he is thinking of something far deeper. It is a deeper level of realisation. That is how I see it. You are clinging onto the physical, because the physical is easy to comprehend.... it is in front of your face.

 

[godnotgod]

What is the definition of matter? How do we determine if something is or is not matter?

Its pretty neat but mostly meaningless. Functionally and empirically matter exists. What matter "is" and how it functions on the subatomic level is another issue all together.

The existence and functionality of what we call matter is revealed on the subatomic level not to be matter. What we are experiencing, via perceptual reality, is an illusion of material and form. That is to say, from the POV of the ordinary conditioned mind, matter and form ARE real, but from the POV of Higher Consciousness and science on the micro scale, they are not.

It is the same with a dream. Images and activities in the dream only seem to be vivid and real, during the dream. We may even respond physically to dream images. Only upon awakening do we realize the illusory nature of the dream. But we awaken to what we only think is reality, when this waking world is an illusion, but of a higher caliber than dream-sleep. When there occurs an awakening to a higher level of reality than that of our conditioned mind, we see the illusory nature of the phenomenal world, as is being slowly demonstrated by Quantum Physics. In spite of the evidence, many still cling to the old paradigm of materialism.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

All that exists is ONE Consciousness.

So I have to ask, how do you know this? Have you personally experienced this ONE Consciousness, and if so what was it like?
And when you talk about the "fundamental part of reality that turns out to be everything", what exactly are you referring to?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I could agree with that, accept for the fact that it's wrong. haha.

At least it's real. Go and try it before dismissing it. Try being fully in the present for a while, that's much more revealing than all the intellectual masturbation going on here.

 

[Robert.Evans]

It 'exists' only as an action, not as a thing. The moment the wave action stops, there is no longer a wave. You cannot isolate a wave and bring it to me for testing in the lab. If you isolate it from the ocean, it ceases to exist. Therefore, it is dependent upon the ocean for its existence as a wave-form.



You cannot move your foot without it being connected to your entire body. Actually, it is consciousness that is moving your foot, just as universal consciousness is moving you, even though you think you are an individual ego acting upon the world. You're not. It's just an illusion of the mind.

I could say that is excellent I have!

 

[Robert.Evans]

This I can agree. But you are taking qualities of this wave, which is just energy passing through the ocean, and ascribing it to the whole ocean. I am sentient. But that does not mean the universe as a whole is sentient. It "could" be. But It doesn't necessarily have to be.


I disagree that I do not have personal freedom. I am part of the universe. I am made of the universe. But I do not believe it is a cosmic consciousness that directs my movements.

It does not direct ''your'' movements because ''you'' don't exist...haha. I am sounding like @godnotgod now.. haha

 

[Rick O'Shez]

When there occurs an awakening to a higher level of reality than that of our conditioned mind, we see the illusory nature of the phenomenal world

Again, instead of talking in these bland generalities you need to illustrate with personal experience. It still feels like you are copying and pasting from a book, it's not real. Possibly you are muddling up an experience of non-duality with a belief in "cosmic consciousness", possibly you've had an experience and are reading far too much into it, I don't know.

It's important to observe that there is no way that we can experience the sub-atomic world, so all the speculation about QM seems irrelevant here.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I could say that is excellent I have!

It's just conditionality. What do you find "excellent" about it?

Pratītyasamutpāda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It does not direct ''your'' movements because ''you'' don't exist...haha

So who just typed in your post? "Robert"? "Not-Robert"? How do you experience "you"?

PS Us Buddhists have real fun with this one.

Anatta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Midnight Rain]

I used to think that way as well, and argued the same. In the sense that we are human and physical, and in that sense alone, I agree. But he, in my opinion, is talking about something deeper, far deeper, and is, at the end of it all, the true reality. As @Spiny Norman says, if you drop a brick on your foot, it still hurts. So you might say, welcome to reality. But this thread is speaking of the fundamental part of reality that turns out to be everything. And as much as ''I'' argued for the 'I' he is right in saying it does not exist. All that exists is ONE Consciousness. If anything is called ''I'', it is ''that''... haha

But how do you know this 'one" consciousness exists and we aren't perpetrate consciousnesses? I have heard this said over and over but not actually having anyone explain it.

But this is the same idea, is it not? You are looking at it from a worldly point of view. He is looking far deeper. He might say, however, that he is looking at at the same view..haha . But we are easily fooled by our senses, which is a good idea if you are standing on a road and a truck is coming towards you. But the reality of the truck and the one that percieves it is they are one and the same. There is One Consciousness, and that is everything we see and are.

Even if it is a spiritual view I don't see why he thinks that there is just one consciousness.

The existence and functionality of what we call matter is revealed on the subatomic level not to be matter. What we are experiencing, via perceptual reality, is an illusion of material and form. That is to say, from the POV of the ordinary conditioned mind, matter and form ARE real, but from the POV of Higher Consciousness and science on the micro scale, they are not.

It is the same with a dream. Images and activities in the dream only seem to be vivid and real, during the dream. We may even respond physically to dream images. Only upon awakening do we realize the illusory nature of the dream. But we awaken to what we only think is reality, when this waking world is an illusion, but of a higher caliber than dream-sleep. When there occurs an awakening to a higher level of reality than that of our conditioned mind, we see the illusory nature of the phenomenal world, as is being slowly demonstrated by Quantum Physics. In spite of the evidence, many still cling to the old paradigm of materialism.

It is still matter. They still function the same way. Its like finding out that something is a hologram...but that hologram can still interact as if it was not a hologram. The qualities of matter doesn't change and aren't subject to change.

 

[savagewind]

I think this thread became the thread with too many words which is interesting. Being a believer in The Word I know Consciousness is A WORD. "In the beginning was the word". And now see how many we have!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

And now see how many we have!

In Buddhism we call it "papanca", mental proliferation. There's a lot of it about!

Conceptual proliferation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Thief]

No, there is only Thief, pretending he exists, terrified about spending eternity screaming his bloody head off in some forgotten grave. Pure comedy, I must admit.

A confession...at last.
All that is left is your renouncement of the word salad you've been posting.

 

[Thief]

Here's who we should be listening to...

Actually, the Architect in the sequel made a most interesting monologue.

 

[godnotgod]

But how do you know this 'one" consciousness exists and we aren't perpetrate consciousnesses? I have heard this said over and over but not actually having anyone explain it.

What is 'perpetrate consciousness'?

Even if it is a spiritual view I don't see why he thinks that there is just one consciousness.

If 10 people walk into a room each carrying a lantern, how many lights are there?

It is still matter. They still function the same way. Its like finding out that something is a hologram...but that hologram can still interact as if it was not a hologram. The qualities of matter doesn't change and aren't subject to change.

There are not two things, one called called 'matter' and the other, 'virtual matter'. There is only one phenomena. What you are doing is comparing what is actually a virtual reality to a definition you call 'matter'. The virtual reality is behaving in such a manner as to make you think it is real. Scientific investigation is showing it not to be real, pending a final confirmation from the Higgs boson.

To use your own words: The qualities of virtual particles don't change and aren't subject to change.

We began with a definition of the world, based on perceptual reality, as being made up of something solid we called 'matter', even assuming its building blocks, called 'atoms', were solid matter. We then discovered that the atom is over 99.9999x% empty space, and more recently, that the remaining 'matter' to be only virtual in nature. Virtual particles are not emulating something that is already real called 'matter'. There is only the phenomena of virtual particles appearing to be something other than what they actually are.

Mystics, on the other hand, began their investigation into the nature of Reality via Ultimate Reality, which is beyond the limitations of perceptual reality, and found that what is perceived as being real is but an illusion. IOW, they saw through the facade via a non-conceptual pathway. Modern science is merely confirming what they already know to be the case.