Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[savagewind]

No...really....no moon and heavy cloud cover......pitch black.
Up close and personal.

There was nothing to focus on.
I've seen this effect only once.

Now we know you don't live in a cave. I'm glad.

 

[savagewind]

Yes. Inside a cave deep enough there is no light. What did you think i meant? If you have lived in a cave you would have seen the pitch black phenomenon more than once, like you say you saw it only once. Did you say you saw it only once?

 

[Thief]

Indeed. How long did you stay out in it?

I took a moment to consider....
If my grandparents should wonder where I went....they would not be able to see me at the end of the sidewalk, only a hundred feet away.

If any creature able to see body heat should come by...the advantage would not be mine.
I could be bitten and never see it coming.

And I did consider the void.
That moment in the life of God.....before .....Let there be light.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Now we know you don't live in a cave.

I wouldn't mind a cave if it came with wide-screen TV and hot running water.

 

[Thief]

Yes. Inside a cave deep enough there is no light. What did you think i meant? If you have lived in a cave you would have seen the pitch black phenomenon more than once, like you say you saw it only once. Did you say you saw it only once?

Did you know? there are clans people that prepare their up and coming spiritual guides by taking them to live in a cave.....shortly after birth.
I think it's nine years later....they bring the child into the light.
It's thought to a be a second birth of sorts.
This unusual up bringing seems important to them somehow.
(sorry I can't remember the name of that people)

 

[metis]

It can be observed, or at least witnessed. In science, we can't really see a single proton or electron; we "see" them by watching their interaction with other things. Direct visual observation is nice, but it isn't the only source of knowledge. Gravity is the same way. We can't see gravity, but we can see the result of gravity. We can't "see" dark matter, but scientists believe it exists because they can tell that the seen universe isn't enough to account for the gravity. To proclaim the existence of a spirit world, that cannot be seen, is no different than proclaiming the existence of Dark Matter, which cannot be seen.

The real question then, is how does the spirit world interact with the physical world. For the sake of clarity, I should mention that both are technically physical, but I will call visible matter "physical" as opposed to spiritual.
1) One way that the spiritual interacts with the physical, is through vision. There is ample testimony that people have seen, albeit occasionally, spiritual things. The actual mechanics of this type of observation is debatable, and difficult to examine scientifically.
2) Prophecy, or in other words revelation. In modern language prophecy usually references the foretelling of future events, but I am using it in the older sense of revelation from God. Whenever a man seems to get knowledge from a spiritual source, that is prophecy. There is a wealth of testimony to this occurrence as well, both in ancient times, and in modern times. We may not "see" the prophecy, but we certainly see the results. The best example, because of the sheer amount of prophecy, and also because of the wealth of modern eye-witness accounts, is the Prophet Joseph Smith. His name has become a hiss and byword, but there is no greater example of this pheonomina.
3) Signs shall follow those that believe. This is actually a subset of 2). Although the Bible tells us that it is wrong to seek a sign, as it is a show of extremely low faith, signs are still given. A sign is an unexpected and immediate demonstration of prophecy.
4) Gift of tongues. This much maligned gift is commonly faked, by people who babble and call it language, despite no obvious transference of information. Never-the-less, the real thing also happens, where people who have never learned French, suddenly speak French. There are both ancient and modern examples.
5) The Gift of Oratory. I'm not sure what else to call it. There are numerous examples of people who are not public speakers - that is to say they have not been taught to speak in public, and have poor language skills, but suddenly can speak artfully and with great persuasion, without any preparation. "It shall be given you in that very hour what ye shall say..."
6) The Gift of Healing. There are numerous accounts of phony healers, but there are also numerous accounts of people whose medical diagnosis has been completely reversed after a faith healing.
7) Commanding the elements. This is very rare, but again there are both ancient and modern examples, mostly involving severe weather.
8) NDE's, or Near Death Experiences. It is estimated that hundred of thousands of people in the US alone have experienced some type of near death experience.
9) Memories from before birth. There are many cases of children who seem to have memories from before they were born. The memories usually, but not always, are erased by around 4 or 5 years of age. The memories are of a pre-earth life, in a spirit world. These don't seem to be as common as NDE's, but that is difficult to measure as I am not aware of any scientific studies or surveys that investigate this pheonomina.

There are probably other examples that I have left out. Feel free to add to the list. Each of these categories could be expanded substantially, as books have been written about most if not all of them.

Sorry, but you're confusing beliefs and certain extraneous factors with objective facts. This is not to say that there are no spirits nor spirituality, but probably most theologians will readily admit that faith is not reliant on objectively-derived evidence as science is.

BTW, I am not an atheist, but I have problems with so many who cite certainty in an area where there's really so much uncertainty.

Also, we can see protons and electrons, including being able to follow their paths.

 

[rrosskopf]

However it is not verifiable and therefore not evidence.

Technically, at least in the legal sense, testimony is evidence, particularly first hand testimony. It may be subjective, and not completely trustworthy, but it is admissable, and sometimes the eye witness testimony is the only thing that stands between conviction and acquital.

There are no known prophecies that have been anything but vague or self fulfilling.

Your ignorance is hardly evidence. First of all, I stated that I was using prophecy in the older sense, NOT only in the sense of fortune telling or prediction the future. It includes all knowledge given to man, both of past, present, and future events, and of the earth and sea and skies, of scientific principles and humanistic values.
Secondly, in the case of Joseph Smith, many prophecies of future events were unusually specific. There are ancient examples as well, of prophecies that were ridiculously unlikely, and happened or were fulfilled all the same. A good example from the Bible, is the prophecy that the Jerusalem Temple would be rebuilt by a pagan king. How unlikely is that? The prophecy even gave the name of the king, some two hundred years (if memory serves) before it happened. In modern times, Joseph Smith prophesied the Civil War, where it would start (South Carolina), that it would lead to treaties between nations, and even a world war. He was right on all counts. He also predicted many of the specific effects of the war including the devastation of Jackson County, and the pestilence and disease that would end up taking over 200,000 lives. Only a year before the war, a newspaper mocked Joseph Smith for making such a ridiculous prophecy, one that had no chance of ever happening. Yet it was all fulfilled, to the letter.
Jackson County, the county that drove out the Mormons, was itself targeted by a Union General Order that demanded that all residents be evacuated, after which all the homes were burned to the ground, leaving nothing but a sea of chimneys, exactly as Joseph Smith predicted... What goes around comes around.
There are many other examples of very specific prophesies that have come to pass.
There are also other revelations which science has vindicated without question. Tobacco really isn't meant for man, as was revealed to Joseph Smith over a hundred and fifty years ago. Joseph Smith also described the rotation of stars, one of which is ours, around a central core, long before Hubble discovered rotating galaxies, or that the Milky Way is one of them.
The Book of Mormon was translated through revelation, and has caused endless debate as to whether or not it is authentic. Would such a debate even be necessary if it was easy to explain away? Here we have a wealth of eye witnesses who 1) saw the gold plates 2) saw the angel and 3) watched the translation, day after day, month after month. The Book of Mormon is available for anyone to examine. It is as if God has taken a shot over the world's bow. Written by scribes, one word at a time, from start to finish without ever returning to any part, dictated by the mouth of the poorly educated Joseph Smith, who didn't have so much as a piece of paper from which to quote, it stands as one of the greatest miracles of the modern age. Poking fun at imagined inaccuracies hardly negates the elephant in the room. The elephant is in the room, and it isn't going anywhere.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

oseph Smith also described the rotation of stars, one of which is ours, around a central core, long before Hubble discovered rotating galaxies, or that the Milky Way is one of them.

Returning to the OP, did Joseph Smith talk about the universe being "intelligent"?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I have problems with so many who cite certainty in an area where there's really so much uncertainty.

For me it's a journey of discovery rather than a taking on a creedal belief system, but I guess people are different.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That moment in the life of God.....before .....Let there be light.

Do you equate that with the big bang? The problem is we currently have no language to describe "before" the big bang.

 

[godnotgod]

I've never stated that it wasn't matter. But the concept that we had of "matter" many years ago was simply wrong. Just as we thought the earth was flat we now know its round. It doesn't mean that the Earth is just an illusion. It just had the illusion of being "flat".

Here's what you said:

Imagine you have a box where you cannot see inside. But you can stick your hand in there. And you feel around and you feel like you think that its one thing but when you open up the box you find its completely different. Its still that same thing.

But it's NOT the same thing. It's not only not what we thought it to be, but is not even material any longer. It's the same phenomena that we thought was matter, but the phenomena is, as you said, 'something completely different', and 'completely' means just that. You're just carrying over the label when it is actually inappropriate. It's neither wave nor particle. We really don't know what to think of it any longer. BTW, the same thing is occurring on the macro scale as regards black holes. The math/physics no longer work. Science is just going to have to find a way to bust out of the old materialist paradigm.

Your take is like saying that what we thought was flat is now round, but it is still flat.

 

[Robert.Evans]

BTW, I am not an atheist, but I have problems with so many who cite certainty in an area where there's really so much uncertainty.

.

You certain about that

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I believe it doesn't but I believe the universe needs intelligence to produce the attraction of objects as opposed to chaos where things would not attract.

I don't see why. It's like arguing that the weather is "intelligent". We're surely looking at natural systems which follow natural laws.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

See the Thread "Experiencing God."

I haven't got the energy to wade through all that, could you give me a quick synopsis of how you personally experience God?
And what's your take on the OP, do you believe the universe is intelligent? And if so, how does that relate to God?

 

[Midnight Rain]

Here's what you said:

Imagine you have a box where you cannot see inside. But you can stick your hand in there. And you feel around and you feel like you think that its one thing but when you open up the box you find its completely different. Its still that same thing.

But it's NOT the same thing. It's not only not what we thought it to be, but is not even material any longer. It's the same phenomena that we thought was matter, but the phenomena is, as you said, 'something completely different', and 'completely' means just that. You're just carrying over the label when it is actually inappropriate. It's neither wave nor particle. We really don't know what to think of it any longer. BTW, the same thing is occurring on the macro scale as regards black holes. The math/physics no longer work. Science is just going to have to find a way to bust out of the old materialist paradigm.

Your take is like saying that what we thought was flat is now round, but it is still flat.

No. Its that we know something exists. That is established. Now the qualities about it were assumed. We find out the qualities that we assumed were not incorrect. The thing still exists but the qualities are understood to be different than previously thought.

We thought the earth was flat.. Now we know its round. But its still the Earth. Matter was thought to be solid. Now we know it is the product of fluctuations. But its still matter.

 

[Midnight Rain]

I took a moment to consider....
If my grandparents should wonder where I went....they would not be able to see me at the end of the sidewalk, only a hundred feet away.

If any creature able to see body heat should come by...the advantage would not be mine.
I could be bitten and never see it coming.

And I did consider the void.
That moment in the life of God.....before .....Let there be light.

I'mma let you have your moment on this as it doesn't seem to pertain to the discussion.... but if you had stayed longer (usually about 5-15 minutes for most people) you would have been able to see. Not perfectly but you could have made out your hand.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Technically, at least in the legal sense, testimony is evidence, particularly first hand testimony. It may be subjective, and not completely trustworthy, but it is admissable, and sometimes the eye witness testimony is the only thing that stands between conviction and acquital.

Evidence for science and facts are not the same as evidence for court. For example if we have a thousand eyewitness testimonies of me murdering someone but thought scientific evidence we know time and place of death and I have a video recording of myself in a public place thousands of miles away from said murder then that small amount of evidence outwheighs all of the eyewitness testimony.

Your ignorance is hardly evidence. First of all, I stated that I was using prophecy in the older sense, NOT only in the sense of fortune telling or prediction the future. It includes all knowledge given to man, both of past, present, and future events, and of the earth and sea and skies, of scientific principles and humanistic values.
Secondly, in the case of Joseph Smith, many prophecies of future events were unusually specific. There are ancient examples as well, of prophecies that were ridiculously unlikely, and happened or were fulfilled all the same. A good example from the Bible, is the prophecy that the Jerusalem Temple would be rebuilt by a pagan king. How unlikely is that? The prophecy even gave the name of the king, some two hundred years (if memory serves) before it happened. In modern times, Joseph Smith prophesied the Civil War, where it would start (South Carolina), that it would lead to treaties between nations, and even a world war. He was right on all counts. He also predicted many of the specific effects of the war including the devastation of Jackson County, and the pestilence and disease that would end up taking over 200,000 lives. Only a year before the war, a newspaper mocked Joseph Smith for making such a ridiculous prophecy, one that had no chance of ever happening. Yet it was all fulfilled, to the letter.
Jackson County, the county that drove out the Mormons, was itself targeted by a Union General Order that demanded that all residents be evacuated, after which all the homes were burned to the ground, leaving nothing but a sea of chimneys, exactly as Joseph Smith predicted... What goes around comes around.
There are many other examples of very specific prophesies that have come to pass.
There are also other revelations which science has vindicated without question. Tobacco really isn't meant for man, as was revealed to Joseph Smith over a hundred and fifty years ago. Joseph Smith also described the rotation of stars, one of which is ours, around a central core, long before Hubble discovered rotating galaxies, or that the Milky Way is one of them.
The Book of Mormon was translated through revelation, and has caused endless debate as to whether or not it is authentic. Would such a debate even be necessary if it was easy to explain away? Here we have a wealth of eye witnesses who 1) saw the gold plates 2) saw the angel and 3) watched the translation, day after day, month after month. The Book of Mormon is available for anyone to examine. It is as if God has taken a shot over the world's bow. Written by scribes, one word at a time, from start to finish without ever returning to any part, dictated by the mouth of the poorly educated Joseph Smith, who didn't have so much as a piece of paper from which to quote, it stands as one of the greatest miracles of the modern age. Poking fun at imagined inaccuracies hardly negates the elephant in the room. The elephant is in the room, and it isn't going anywhere.

Bring me links to any of these claims so I can read them. Lets see how specific they are.

 

[rrosskopf]

But what are some of these "signs" and are they impossible otherwise?

It is a big subject. Skeptics use circular reasoning, when they say that something happened, therefore it wasn't impossible. It does nothing to determine whether there was supernatural intervention in either the event, or the fore-knowledge of the event. These "signs" are not impossible; they are unlikely, sometimes extremely unlikely. Joseph Smith led a band of 200 men, called Zion's camp, back to Missouri to confront the anti-mormon mob. When Zions camp ran out of drinking water, it was a serious situation, as there were no rivers nearby. Joseph Smith took a shovel and went out into the prairie and dug a one foot hole. Enough fresh water came out to fill every container in the camp. To the members of the little army, it was equivalent to Moses hitting the rocks with his staff, and providing water to the children of Israel. Personally, I've dug many holes, and never got so much as a drop out of them.

Firstly there have been several studies on the speaking of tongues and no such actual language can be found. It sounds like and in reality is, a bunch of jibberish. Secondly there are no recorded or verified event of someone suddenly speaking another language with no training.

These studies are studies of the fake stuff. I did warn you that there were people who just babbled. Yes, there are recorded and verified events where someone without training has spoken another language. There are many such stories in Mormon history. I myself have experienced it, although I did have some training. When I served a mission in Peru, I had taken 1st year Spanish in High School. I was a long way from fluent. I barely passed the class. When I spoke my best Spanish in Peru, people stared at me in total incomprehension, as if I was still speaking English. It was very frustrating to say the least. My companion would end up doing almost all of the talking. Then one day, while teaching this one family, I could suddenly speak this fluent Spanish, and I saw comprehension in their eyes, and I also knew what I was saying. I was amazed. The next day I went back to speaking in my clumsy North American way. It was several more months before I could speak clearly enough to be understood, and then only at the level of a five-year-old. I know it is subjective, but I was there and I know that something happened, and I will never forget it.

I don't see how this is actually a gift.

I know it is subjective in the extreme. I also know it happens, because it happened to me. I have stood in front of a large group, without any preparation, and been told word for word what to say, by some unseen force. The spirit was so strong that some people were moved to tears. I'd like to take credit for it, but the words didn't come from me.

There are zero confirmed faith healing cases.

Do we live on the same planet? Go to any Mormon church, and ask if anyone was ever healed of a major illness. I'll bet you get at least two or three. I myself was given two years to live by doctors some 15 years ago. The disease, which was untreatable and had 100% mortality, was completely gone just a few months after diagnosis, along with all the symptoms - and after a priesthood blessing. I have taken the tests twice in subsequent years to verify the result. I am not alone. Mormon history includes people who were cured of blindness, small pox, and some have even brought back to life. I recently read the story of one man (I don't remember his name; forgive me. I am terrible with names) who was told by six different doctors that he would soon die. He couldn't even walk. Two Mormon missionaries gave him a blessing and cured him. He lived a long and happy life after that. Shortly after his baptism, the Holy Ghost came to him and told him to move to Kirtland. It was the middle of winter, and esteemed foolish by many to make the trip in winter, but he was compelled to move with urgency. As it turns out the church was in danger of losing their property, on which they were already building the Kirtland Temple. The loan for the property was due, and they had no money with which to pay it. On the very last day before the land would have reverted to the previous owner, the man who was healed showed up, having just moved into town, and paid the loan in full. Signs follow them that believe.

 

[godnotgod]

No. Its that we know something exists. That is established. Now the qualities about it were assumed. We find out the qualities that we assumed were not incorrect. The thing still exists but the qualities are understood to be different than previously thought.

We thought the earth was flat.. Now we know its round. But its still the Earth. Matter was thought to be solid. Now we know it is the product of fluctuations. But its still matter.

No it is not. It is quantum fluctuations such that you THINK they are matter. There is no matter. When we look, we now see Quantum fluctutations, and ONLY Quantum fluctuations. The 'material' particles you think are real are virtual, and virtual means just that. A mirage of a pool of water is not water. It is nothing.

 

[rrosskopf]

I had an Aunt who had stage 4 cancer. She went exclusively to faith healing for a man who had supposedly 'healed" several people. She died in less than a month. So I don't even take kindly to these kinds of claims.

The fakers and con-men ruin it for everyone. The real thing does exist, but you won't find it in some medicine show. The real thing isn't usually publicized, because there is no one trying to profit off of it, and because it only invites ridicule.