Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Rick O'Shez]

When we look, we now see Quantum fluctutations, and ONLY Quantum fluctuations.

I still don't see what practical relevance this has to do with mystical experience, or with your theory of cosmic consciousness. Unless you're claiming that you can see quarks?

In our everyday world if we drop a brick on our foot it will still hurt.

 

[savagewind]

That as a wonderful story about Joseph Smith. I am feeling a bit befuddled that I did not know of all those miracles.

But I am a sceptic. Those miracles happened then when I wasn't there to witness them myself. My little devil is saying
" maybe what we KNOW isn't real and we really live under a government who is rewriting history so the people will remain divided each in his own camp." And I say "oh that is unlikely but I suppose anything is possible" . So then I have to go to my default position which is that same government (because they control everything) saying "on understanding do not lean" which is something I choose to consider wise and true.

Edit (because I can) there is just one thing I am hoping and it is that they are not watching me like poor Truman.

 

[metis]

For me it's a journey of discovery rather than a taking on a creedal belief system, but I guess people are different.

Ditto. I remember talking with a Catholic nun many years ago whereas I told her that my experience is that I have more respect for those who say they're looking for God than those who claim they've found God. The reason is that those whom are looking tend to keep an open mind, whereas those who claim they've found God tend to close their mind and all too often become myopic and condescending.

She agreed, btw.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The reason is that those whom are looking tend to keep an open mind, whereas those who claim they've found God tend to close their mind and all too often become myopic and condescending.

I had a similar discussion with my Quaker friends a while back, we were discussing it in terms of truth v. comfort ( the comfort of adopting beliefs ).

 

[Sha'irullah]

I believe that is illogical. There is a pholosphy of a prime mover but He is hardly a vibrator although I suspect He likes rithym since there is so much of it in naature.

Ahh the Prime Mover. For the most part it is a fallacy in the world of philosophy. You shouldn't throw out philosophical concepts and not elaborate upon them.
The Unmoved Mover is still fallacious because it does not avoid the issue of infinite regression (the causal chain that predates itself eternally). On top of this the Unmoved Mover works on the fallacy of presumption and especially in your case since you do not even understand it.
Saying the world requires an unmoved mover is no different than asserting a god. Both are at their base metaphysical concepts with no evidence but on top of this each would defy nature. Metaphysics by no means implies something is unnatural or impossible as theoretical physicists make it their job to dive into such a thing.

So please know what you are talking about before mentioning it. It does not help you any and for the most part makes you seem uneducated or even worse.

 

[Sapiens]

No really.....no moon, heavy cloud cover....as in pitch black.
I've only seen it once.

Here on the big island I can see that many nights out of the month. We have very little light pollution and when it is cloudy and the moon is not it is as dark as an unlit cave. That is a very natural circumstance and I fail to see why it even bears mentioning.

 

[Sapiens]

Indeed. How long did you stay out in it?

When I am camping I often stay out in "it" all night.

 

[Sapiens]

Technically, at least in the legal sense, testimony is evidence, particularly first hand testimony. It may be subjective, and not completely trustworthy, but it is admissable, and sometimes the eye witness testimony is the only thing that stands between conviction and acquital.

We are not discussing courts of law but rather courts of science. Testimony is considered in forming hypothesis, but confirmation requires more than anecdotal evidence. BTW: "eyewitness" testimony have been shown to be very unreliable.

Your ignorance is hardly evidence. First of all, I stated that I was using prophecy in the older sense, NOT only in the sense of fortune telling or prediction the future. It includes all knowledge given to man, both of past, present, and future events, and of the earth and sea and skies, of scientific principles and humanistic values.

If that is your criteria then you really fail big time.

Secondly, in the case of Joseph Smith, many prophecies of future events were unusually specific. There are ancient examples as well, of prophecies that were ridiculously unlikely, and happened or were fulfilled all the same.

Oh, you mean like Jews in the ancient new world (no evidence), chariots, horses, a slew of ungulate species? What crap, get with reality..

A good example from the Bible, is the prophecy that the Jerusalem Temple would be rebuilt by a pagan king. How unlikely is that? The prophecy even gave the name of the king, some two hundred years (if memory serves) before it happened. In modern times, Joseph Smith prophesied the Civil War, where it would start (South Carolina), that it would lead to treaties between nations, and even a world war. He was right on all counts. He also predicted many of the specific effects of the war including the devastation of Jackson County, and the pestilence and disease that would end up taking over 200,000 lives. Only a year before the war, a newspaper mocked Joseph Smith for making such a ridiculous prophecy, one that had no chance of ever happening. Yet it was all fulfilled, to the letter.

When you can show me where your bibles say "civil war" (or any other names use such as "War between the States" or "War of Norther Aggression" then maybe you have a case, but as it stands this (and for that matter all of the claimed "prophesies" represent nothing more than force fitting past occurrences to often poorly fitting alleged quotes, while backing away from previous claims by putting forth the following six arguments:

1. some prophecies that critics claim have failed have actually been fulfilled;
2. some of Smith's statements have been mischaracterized as "prophecies";
3. some prophetic statements ascribed to Smith have not been verified as legitimate by either Latter Day Saint or non–Latter Day Saint historians;
4. some prophesies should be interpreted metaphorically, not literally;
5. some legitimate prophesies were conditional and did not happen because the conditions precedent to those prophesies were not satisfied; and
6. some legitimate prophecies remain unfulfilled but are expected to be fulfilled in the future.

It's like the prophesies of the second coming (Smith is guilty here too, but far from unique). Inn 1830 he claimed that the "hour is nigh and day soon at hand" when Jesus will return. It's been almost two hundred years ... no Jesus. Now shall we argue about what "nigh" and "at hand" mean? You dog just doesn't hunt. If you can't get it right from the get-go you are no prophet. There are no prophets, there never have been any prophets, except in peoples' imagination.

Jackson County, the county that drove out the Mormons, was itself targeted by a Union General Order that demanded that all residents be evacuated, after which all the homes were burned to the ground, leaving nothing but a sea of chimneys, exactly as Joseph Smith predicted... What goes around comes around.
There are many other examples of very specific prophesies that have come to pass.
There are also other revelations which science has vindicated without question. Tobacco really isn't meant for man, as was revealed to Joseph Smith over a hundred and fifty years ago.

Again, force fitting fancy to facts. Tobacco, used in moderation, in it's natural form is central to Native American ceremony and belief and is not harmful. Tobacco that has it nicotine level adjusted to assure addiction and that has many additives ( List of additives in cigarettes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) can hardly be cited to demonstrate real propheteering.

Joseph Smith also described the rotation of stars, one of which is ours, around a central core, long before Hubble discovered rotating galaxies, or that the Milky Way is one of them.

I don't see this claim on the list.

The Book of Mormon was translated through revelation, and has caused endless debate as to whether or not it is authentic.

Not really much debate here, just a whole lot of obfuscation and
and excuse making. The lost 116 pages and the objective proof concerning the papyri translations answer this question to any objective observer.

Would such a debate even be necessary if it was easy to explain away? Here we have a wealth of eye witnesses who 1) saw the gold plates 2) saw the angel and 3) watched the translation, day after day, month after month.

No, no one ever saw the plates.

No, no one ever saw the angel.

All anyone watched was Smith with his face in a hat.

The Book of Mormon is available for anyone to examine. It is as if God has taken a shot over the world's bow. Written by scribes, one word at a time, from start to finish without ever returning to any part, dictated by the mouth of the poorly educated Joseph Smith, who didn't have so much as a piece of paper from which to quote, it stands as one of the greatest miracles of the modern age. Poking fun at imagined inaccuracies hardly negates the elephant in the room. The elephant is in the room, and it isn't going anywhere.

The elephant is an inflatable doll full of hot air.

 

[rrosskopf]

Name a modern example.

The examples of Commanding the Elements that I had in mind, in retrospect, were anecdotal, which is to say they don't really fit this category. I think I spoke too soon on this one. I will have to give it some more thought. This is perhaps the rarest type of experience, as it requires tremendous faith. My own experience is laughable. It embarrasses me to share it. I accidentally wore my non-water resistant mechanical watch while swimming. I had seen what water does to similar watches, and this was an expensive enough watch at the time. So I used my priesthood to prevent my watch from rusting. It seemed to me that my invocation of authority worked, as it never rusted, but of course there is no proof that it would have rusted anyway. The watch continued to work as if nothing had happened.
Anciently, there are some examples... Elijah sealing the heavens, Moses withdrawing the waters. If we are looking for proof of the supernatural, then none of these are going to be persuasive, except to the people who witnessed these events. I wasn't trying to prove the supernatural, when I made this list; I was just making a list of the ways that history is believed to have been influenced by the supernatural.
The anecdotal evidence actually belongs under the category of "Dusting of Feet", which we have been asked not to do.

 

[rrosskopf]

If that is your criteria then you really fail big time.

At what? What did you think I was attempting to do? I wasn't trying to prove anything. I was listing areas which could be studied, areas traditionally attributed to the supernatural. There is evidence, just not the kind that one puts into a test tube. A different approach is required. I am assuming, for the moment, that I am not talking to a devoted skeptic. In my experience, a good skeptic can't be persuaded that anything is true.

Oh, you mean like Jews in the ancient new world (no evidence), chariots, horses, a slew of ungulate species? What crap, get with reality..

Er... no. I wasn't referring to any of those. But now that you bring them up... the Hebrew word for chariot is borrowed from the Egyptian, and translates to "riding seat". A litter is a riding seat. Litters were used throughout Mesoamerica by generals and kings - the two classes mentioned in the Book of Mormon as using chariots. There is evidence of Jews (or at least Israelites) in the New World. There are many Hebrew words in the Uto-Aztecan language family, which had widespread usage in North America. Ancient Hebrew script has been found on at least 3 artifacts, all found in the United States. One can question the validity of the evidence, but there is evidence. I had to look up the definition of ungulates. If you were referring to cattle, bison are cattle. If you were referring to horses, they are native to North America. They died out at some point, oddly continuing only in Eurasia, but there is no evidence to prove when exactly they died out, or that none ever were reestablished for a period. Elephants are only mentioned once in the Book of Mormon - in the Book of Ether, which goes back three or four thousand years. At least three different kinds of elephants once roamed the Americas. I'm not making this up. Olmec art history shows several examples of what appear to be elephants. Perhaps you should visit a natural history museum, instead of telling me to get with reality.

When you can show me where your bibles say "civil war" (or any other names use such as "War between the States" or "War of Norther Aggression" then maybe you have a case

I definitely have a case. That is why I mentioned it.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
(Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3)

12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.
(Doctrine and Covenants 130:12-13)

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Returning to the OP for a moment, as far as I can see the universe resembles a natural system like the weather, and there is no reason to suppose that it requires "intelligence" to order it.
It would be like saying that the weather needs to be intelligent, or that the rain is conscious.

On this thread we've gone off at various tangents, including the usual theist theories of how the universe came into being, like for example "It couldn't have arisen by chance so God must have done it". But these arguments all look very anthrocentric to me, the same way of thinking that led to people believing that the earth was at the centre of the universe.

I haven't seen anything remotely convincing yet to support the idea that the universe needs intelligence to order it.

 

[rrosskopf]

Inn 1830 he claimed that the "hour is nigh and day soon at hand" when Jesus will return. It's been almost two hundred years ... no Jesus.

Obviously, it is given in geologic time ;-)
One might also ask how it can be the hour, if the day isn't yet at hand...
The language is specifically non-specific, if that makes sense. It is meant to convey urgency, without really informing us of how much time is left. It was known from the start that the gospel would first need to be taken to the nations of the world. Although their missionary effort was valiant, this wasn't achieved in Joseph Smith's day. Today, the gospel is being taught in 98% of the nations of the world. We still have 2% to go.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Although their missionary effort was valiant, this wasn't achieved in Joseph Smith's day.

Sorry to drag you back to the topic, but do you believe the universe needs intelligence to order it?

 

[rrosskopf]

I haven't seen anything remotely convincing yet to support the idea that the universe needs intelligence to order it.

I tend to agree. It is surprising that the universe does have order, but there could be an innocent explanation. I can't wrap my mind around the idea that the universe is expanding... to where? Many theists assume that God created everything that modern man can perceive, but that isn't necessarily the case. A baker can bake a cake without building a kitchen.

 

[rrosskopf]

Sorry to drag you back to the topic, but do you believe the universe needs intelligence to order it?

There is a tendency to exaggerate the attributes of God by those who believe in God. I believe in God, and I believe he lives in the universe, but he didn't create it, nor did he create himself. Without logic, words convey no useful information. If the puzzle pieces don't fit together, it is because we don't have the right pieces. Intelligence itself assumes a type of order; where would it exist if not in the universe?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I can't wrap my mind around the idea that the universe is expanding... to where?

Yes, it's one of the mind-bogglers that cosmologists grapple with. And was there something "before" the big bang, and is our universe just one of many, and so on.
I just think the universe is awesome and strange, and currently completely beyond our limited human imagination.

 

[rrosskopf]

Again, force fitting fancy to facts. Tobacco, used in moderation, in it's natural form is central to Native American ceremony and belief and is not harmful.

Way ahead of you...
"Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—"
"And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill."
(Doctrine and Covenants 89:4,8)

 

[rrosskopf]

No, no one ever saw the plates.
No, no one ever saw the angel.

Yeah, that's not history. Even the eye witnesses who were angry at Joseph Smith went to their graves testifying that they saw the plates, and the angel.

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

 

[rrosskopf]

Bring me links to any of these claims so I can read them. Lets see how specific they are.

Here is the wikipedia article. They mentioned almost nothing of my favorite prophecy, the one given to Dr. Richards a year before his death. He was told that the day would come when bullets would rain down on him like hail, and that men would fall on his right, and on his left, but that he wouldn't receive so much as a hole in his clothing. Joseph didn't mention that one of those men would be himself, and that the other would be his brother.
List of prophecies of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Midnight Rain]

It is a big subject. Skeptics use circular reasoning, when they say that something happened, therefore it wasn't impossible. It does nothing to determine whether there was supernatural intervention in either the event, or the fore-knowledge of the event. These "signs" are not impossible; they are unlikely, sometimes extremely unlikely. Joseph Smith led a band of 200 men, called Zion's camp, back to Missouri to confront the anti-mormon mob. When Zions camp ran out of drinking water, it was a serious situation, as there were no rivers nearby. Joseph Smith took a shovel and went out into the prairie and dug a one foot hole. Enough fresh water came out to fill every container in the camp. To the members of the little army, it was equivalent to Moses hitting the rocks with his staff, and providing water to the children of Israel. Personally, I've dug many holes, and never got so much as a drop out of them.

These studies are studies of the fake stuff. I did warn you that there were people who just babbled. Yes, there are recorded and verified events where someone without training has spoken another language. There are many such stories in Mormon history. I myself have experienced it, although I did have some training. When I served a mission in Peru, I had taken 1st year Spanish in High School. I was a long way from fluent. I barely passed the class. When I spoke my best Spanish in Peru, people stared at me in total incomprehension, as if I was still speaking English. It was very frustrating to say the least. My companion would end up doing almost all of the talking. Then one day, while teaching this one family, I could suddenly speak this fluent Spanish, and I saw comprehension in their eyes, and I also knew what I was saying. I was amazed. The next day I went back to speaking in my clumsy North American way. It was several more months before I could speak clearly enough to be understood, and then only at the level of a five-year-old. I know it is subjective, but I was there and I know that something happened, and I will never forget it.

I know it is subjective in the extreme. I also know it happens, because it happened to me. I have stood in front of a large group, without any preparation, and been told word for word what to say, by some unseen force. The spirit was so strong that some people were moved to tears. I'd like to take credit for it, but the words didn't come from me.

Do we live on the same planet? Go to any Mormon church, and ask if anyone was ever healed of a major illness. I'll bet you get at least two or three. I myself was given two years to live by doctors some 15 years ago. The disease, which was untreatable and had 100% mortality, was completely gone just a few months after diagnosis, along with all the symptoms - and after a priesthood blessing. I have taken the tests twice in subsequent years to verify the result. I am not alone. Mormon history includes people who were cured of blindness, small pox, and some have even brought back to life. I recently read the story of one man (I don't remember his name; forgive me. I am terrible with names) who was told by six different doctors that he would soon die. He couldn't even walk. Two Mormon missionaries gave him a blessing and cured him. He lived a long and happy life after that. Shortly after his baptism, the Holy Ghost came to him and told him to move to Kirtland. It was the middle of winter, and esteemed foolish by many to make the trip in winter, but he was compelled to move with urgency. As it turns out the church was in danger of losing their property, on which they were already building the Kirtland Temple. The loan for the property was due, and they had no money with which to pay it. On the very last day before the land would have reverted to the previous owner, the man who was healed showed up, having just moved into town, and paid the loan in full. Signs follow them that believe.

I can already tell this is leading no where.

But here is a simple enough request. Find me a case of verified faith healing in the mornon church.