apophenia
Well-Known Member
Doh !
You've been misled by a classic misunderstanding Rob. Lots of people have been misled on this one, so I'm not having a cheap shot at you. But that is Chinese Whispers.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Does the universe need intelligence to order it?
- Thread starter Robert.Evans
- Start date
Doh !
You've been misled by a classic misunderstanding Rob. Lots of people have been misled on this one, so I'm not having a cheap shot at you. But that is Chinese Whispers.
I don't suppose you could provide some of their names or works?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
They do quite well understanding. Good grades all through school......I'm so proud.
I've never had to bust my brains....they work unusually well.....thank you for asking.
I see you still think you don't exist.
godnotgod
Thou art That
LOL, consciousness is non-material reality not subject to the antics of the material universe. On the contrary, the material universe is completely subject to consciousness, and yet, consciousness does not interfere or dominate the material universe, but is what is behind it in every way, just as the ocean is behind the wave in every way. IOW, all forms in the universe are illusory; only the consciousness that manifests them is real.
Yes, consciousness was present at the time of the BB. It is incorrect to say it was present 'before', as consciousness exists outside of time and space. The BB is an ongoing event in consciousness. Consciousness has no origin. It is Unborn. It is indestructible.
Last edited:
godnotgod
Thou art That
No, but you're missing my point. I am not an advocate of Chomsky, and am not doting on his every word. I merely quoted one statement of his, and I don't detect anything within it that is particularly 'Chomsky-ish'. The question is whether it is true or not. Can you just address that instead of attacking the pointing finger?
Last edited:
godnotgod
Thou art That
godnotgod
Thou art That
The Sun is not an artifact:
artifact
1. any object made by human beings, especially with a view to subsequent use.
2. a handmade object, as a tool, or the remains of one, as a shard of pottery, characteristic of an earlier time or cultural stage, especially such an object found at an archaeological excavation.
3. any mass-produced, usually inexpensive object reflecting contemporary society or popular culture:
artifacts of the pop rock generation.
4. a substance or structure not naturally present in the matter being observed but formed by artificial means, as during preparation of a microscope slide.
5. a spurious observation or result arising from preparatory or investigative procedures.
6. any feature that is not naturally present but is a product of an extrinsic agent, method, or the like:
Artifact | Define Artifact at Dictionary.com
godnotgod
Thou art That
So why the need to force them to listen to you then? In light of their good behavior, a gentler approach seems to be called for. No bloody heads from wall banging sessions.
The town fool always walked about, smacking himself over the head. One day, he appeared without doing so. Someone asked: 'Why are you not smacking yourself as usual?', to which he replied: 'Because it feels so good'.
godnotgod
Thou art That
heh...heh...so 'evolution' is a conscious entity, eh? You talk about 'evolution' as if it is some kind of conscious, active agent. Evolution is a process. It is consciousness that is the directing force behind the process of evolution.
Again, it is consciousness that relegated certain autonomic activities to the brain so it wouldn't need to have them up front all the time, interfering with immediate reality. This is intelligence at work, but as psychoslice pointed out, this kind of intelligence is not the intellect
Last edited:
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Ah....so you don't understand a father's firm 'hand'?
don't bother responding.....you're not there anyway.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Why bother, GnG? I'm not going to waste more time than is necessary that would lend a smidgeon of support to your abject disdain of the plight of your fellow human animals. Like with everything else you twist and warp things to make them fit into the neurosis of your understanding. Then again, that is somewhat expected. You don't actually have much to offer your fellow human animals.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Ah...so you don't understand the difference between firmness and force.
You see? A response without a responder. Cool, huh?
godnotgod
Thou art That
You're right, I don't, save for one silent priceless pointing finger.
'Look, YmirGF! der MOON!, fer Gawdzsakes!'
Q: What is the most valuable thing in the world?
A: Don't know. What?
Q: The head of a dead cat.
A: Oh? Why is that?
Q: Because no one can put a price on it.
You're not going to stoop so low and 'waste your time' because you know that what I am saying is self-evident. You're just wanting to be difficult and won't admit when you are clearly in the wrong.
BTW, that's 'smidgen', and not 'smidgeon', as in 'YmirGF doesn't grasp even one smidgen of what GNG is pointing to, and continues to wallow in the quagmire of cynicism and ad hominem attacks.'
So tell me: what makes you think you're a Bodhisattva? Why am I thinking of the neighborhood kids wearing Superman and Batman capes. 'Up, up and away!
Such fun.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
I just came up with a jolly good answer to the OP: "The universe needs intelligence to perceive it".
Hurrah!
Hurrah!
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
In typical fashion, the word smidgeon can be spelled either way. Deal with it.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Well, duh, eh?I just came up with a jolly good answer to the OP: "The universe needs intelligence to perceive it".
Hurrah!
godnotgod
Thou art That
Right. You've neither.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Anyway, the point here is that the conditioned man does not know he is conditioned. He thinks himself fully awake and free, when, in fact, he is asleep and lost in the state of Identification, or Waking Sleep, the Third State of Conscousness:
For many people, this concept of waking sleep makes no sense at all. They firmly maintain that,
once they "wake up," they are responsible beings, masters of themselves, fully conscious, and that anyone who tells them that they are not is a fool or a liar. It is almost impossible to convince such people that they are deceiving themselves because, when a man is told that he is not really conscious, a mechanism is activated within him which awakens him for a moment. He replies, indignantly, "But I am fully conscious," and because of this "trick of Nature" as Ouspensky used to call it, he does become conscious for a moment. He moves from the third room to the threshold of the fourth room, answers the challenge, and at once goes to sleep again, firmly convinced that he is a fully awakened being.
The fact is that man in the third state of consciousness is in a situation from which it is hard to
escape. He does not recognize the state as waking sleep, does not understand the meaning of
identification. If anyone tells him that he is not fully conscious, he replies that he is conscious and, by the "trick of Nature," becomes conscious for a moment. He is like a man surrounded by
distorting mirrors which offer him an image of himself that in no way corresponds to reality. If he is fat, they tell him he is slender. If he is old, they tell him he is young. He is very happy to believe the mirrors for they save him from that hardest of all tasks, the struggle to know himself as he-really is.
Furthermore, this sleeping man is surrounded by other sleeping people and the whole culture in
which he lives serves to perpetuate that state of sleep. Its ethics, morality, value systems are all based on the idea that it is lawful and desirable for man to spend his life in the third room rather than in a struggle to enter the fourth. Teachings that exhort men to awaken, to adopt a system of values based on levels of being rather than material possessions are distrusted. Theoretically, in the United States at least, what are loosely called "spiritual values" are accepted as valid, but practically they do not carry much weight.
The Master Game, by Robert deRopp
For many people, this concept of waking sleep makes no sense at all. They firmly maintain that,
once they "wake up," they are responsible beings, masters of themselves, fully conscious, and that anyone who tells them that they are not is a fool or a liar. It is almost impossible to convince such people that they are deceiving themselves because, when a man is told that he is not really conscious, a mechanism is activated within him which awakens him for a moment. He replies, indignantly, "But I am fully conscious," and because of this "trick of Nature" as Ouspensky used to call it, he does become conscious for a moment. He moves from the third room to the threshold of the fourth room, answers the challenge, and at once goes to sleep again, firmly convinced that he is a fully awakened being.
The fact is that man in the third state of consciousness is in a situation from which it is hard to
escape. He does not recognize the state as waking sleep, does not understand the meaning of
identification. If anyone tells him that he is not fully conscious, he replies that he is conscious and, by the "trick of Nature," becomes conscious for a moment. He is like a man surrounded by
distorting mirrors which offer him an image of himself that in no way corresponds to reality. If he is fat, they tell him he is slender. If he is old, they tell him he is young. He is very happy to believe the mirrors for they save him from that hardest of all tasks, the struggle to know himself as he-really is.
Furthermore, this sleeping man is surrounded by other sleeping people and the whole culture in
which he lives serves to perpetuate that state of sleep. Its ethics, morality, value systems are all based on the idea that it is lawful and desirable for man to spend his life in the third room rather than in a struggle to enter the fourth. Teachings that exhort men to awaken, to adopt a system of values based on levels of being rather than material possessions are distrusted. Theoretically, in the United States at least, what are loosely called "spiritual values" are accepted as valid, but practically they do not carry much weight.
The Master Game, by Robert deRopp
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Much like the writings of Mr. deRopp.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
Yes sorry bad choice of words. I concede on using the wrong language. The sun is a remnant.