Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[apophenia]

You might check these out

Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide”

Non-sequitur.

I have long been aware that cognition rationalises decisions already made.

That has no bearing whatsoever on my observation that being consciously aware of anything is currently beyond the purview of science.

Describing processes in no way illuminates conscious awareness.

 

[shawn001]

Evidence please



yeah. so ?

i don't deliberately beat my heart either.

irrelevant.

I am talking about conscious awareness, not unconscious processes.

I will give you a ton of evidence, but not tonight another time, remind me.

You can start with this though and they know way more now, which is what I will show you.

How does a three-pound mass of wet gray tissue (the brain) succeed in representing the external world so beautifully? In this interview with noted neuroscientist Rodolfo Llinás of the New York University School of Medicine, find out how the rhythm of electrical oscillations in the brain gives rise to consciousness, and how failures in this rhythm can lead to a variety of brain disorders.

NOVA | The Electric Brain

If you want to look someone up in the meantime, look up

Vilayanur Ramachandran has been called a Sherlock Holmes of neuroscience. Director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, San Diego, and adjunct professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, California, Ramachandran has brilliantly sleuthed his way through some of the strangest maladies of the human mind.

NOVA | From Ramachandran's Notebook

 

[apophenia]

evolution figured it out

Now THAT is closet religion.

The idea that evolution 'figures things out' is basically not only entirely contrary to evolutionary theory, but effectively Intelligent Design.

 

[shawn001]

Non-sequitur.

I have long been aware that cognition rationalises decisions already made.

That has no bearing whatsoever on my observation that being consciously aware of anything is currently beyond the purview of science.

Describing processes in no way illuminates conscious awareness.

Watch the video and it will make a lot more sense why I posted it and why its VERY important.

 

[apophenia]

yeah. so ?

If you want to understand how the brain works.

"i don't deliberately beat my heart either."

You don't consciously have to think about that because evolution figured it out, with the autonomic nervous system

unconscious processes give rise to your conscious decisions. They are as important. They are making some of them for you without you being consciously aware.

You can't say science knows nothing about all this and then say yeah so.

I can, and I did.

How can examples of unconscious processes possibly be an argument for understanding conscious awareness ?

And, I am still waiting for that evidence ...

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

All you can dig up is descriptions of the physical behaviour of the brain.

That in no way explains how that behaviour is 'experienced'.

All of that behaviour could be happening, exactly as it is, without anyone knowing it.

That is all that we have data about so far.

Well we can sever the connections between right and left hemispheres and show that subjects will respond to commands that they "see" via one hemisphere they will not only follow the instructions, and not only be unaware that they saw the command they responded to, they will make-up a reason for why they did what the stimulus instructed them to. That is, the brain has processed the instruction such that the individual obeys, but they are not conscious of the information the brain processed that resulted in their action.

While this still doesn't remotely explain how behavior is experienced, it does show us ways in which behavior is not experienced because we severed the connections that would enable the individual to explain why they behaved as they did.

 

[shawn001]

Now THAT is closet religion.

The idea that evolution 'figures things out' is basically not only entirely contrary to evolutionary theory, but effectively Intelligent Design.

Its a figure of speech and nothing else. Evolution evolved the mechanism for a biological reason. Called the autonomic nervous system.

There is also something called the enteric nervous system in the gut which also help shape emotions, but not quite like the brain. Although coined the Second brain in the gut.

 

[apophenia]

While this still doesn't remotely explain how behavior is experienced, it does show us ways in which behavior is not experienced because we severed the connections that would enable the individual to explain why they behaved as they did.

Sure.
But as you (bravely, in this environment) stated "this still doesn't remotely explain how behavior is experienced,"

This is all I am pointing out.

And, as I say, for many that is simply unacceptable.

I know, from many, many of your insightful posts, that you get this completely.

Explain it to Shawn - you're the cognitive scientist here !

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

You might check these out

Libet himself qualifies what such experiments mean in terms of conscious decision making, and concludes that we do indeed seem to consciously determine our actions but that this aspect is more of an "executive" component that, after the subconscious impulse begins, is able to consciously either decide to go through with the subconscious decision process or not.

However, as Libet's experiments are quite flawed and his interpretations unwarranted, I wouldn't read to much into them. Or, at least I wouldn't do so without considering the numerous criticisms of everything from his experimental design to analysis by various experts in the behavior and brain sciences.

 

[shawn001]

and this is just because its interesting and Neurologist VS Ramachandran is a pretty good detective .


Split brain with one half atheist and one half theist

Neurologist VS Ramachandran explains the case of split-brain patients with one hemisphere without a belief in a god, and the other with a belief in a god.

 

[apophenia]

Its a figure of speech and nothing else. Evolution evolved the mechanism for a biological reason. Called the autonomic nervous system.

There is also something called the enteric nervous system in the gut which also help shape emotions, but not quite like the brain. Although coined the Second brain in the gut.

All of which has nothing to do with EXPERIENCING.

All of that behaviour could occur without 'experiencing' - without anyone being consciously aware of anything.

You surprise me in your refusal to acknowledge this

 

[shawn001]

Libet himself qualifies what such experiments mean in terms of conscious decision making, and concludes that we do indeed seem to consciously determine our actions but that this aspect is more of an "executive" component that, after the subconscious impulse begins, is able to consciously either decide to go through with the subconscious decision process or not.

However, as Libet's experiments are quite flawed and his interpretations unwarranted, I wouldn't read to much into them. Or, at least I wouldn't do so without considering the numerous criticisms of everything from his experimental design to analysis by various experts in the behavior and brain sciences.

I know your not into documentaries really, but worth watching that particular Through the wormhole and state of the art work on the subconscious. It is really worth it. I have worked with people at UNC on aspects of this, so if you get a chance its worth it. I don't think it will be a waste of time and its way ahead of Libet.

 

[shawn001]

All of which has nothing to do with EXPERIENCING.

All of that behaviour could occur without 'experiencing' - without anyone being consciously aware of anything.

You surprise me in your refusal to acjknowledge this

Chill, I did acknowledge you and said I would provide evidence another time remind me. Its late for me an I am signing off, so for now have a great conscious experience. Follow through on some of what I already posted like the electric brain.

 

[apophenia]

Chill, I did acknowledge you and said I would provide evidence .

I wait with bated breath ... anyone who has such insight is up for a Nobel Prize. At least.

 

[apophenia]

While this still doesn't remotely explain how behavior is experienced, it does show us ways in which behavior is not experienced because we severed the connections that would enable the individual to explain why they behaved as they did.

On a tangent - the ergoloid I ordered is kicking in now.

I was very disappointed when Sandoz/Novartis discontinued it - but the generic is good. Starting slowly ... will report further when I have titrated upwards to 5mg per day

Three cheers for Dr Albert Hofmann ! Hip hip ...

 

[Thief]

No, it 'works' because if they don't listen to you, there will be serious consequences. You are conditioning your children to live in fear. Once you teach them that force and fear are ways to control others, they will exercise it on them as well. It doesn't work on me because I'll just laugh at you, or maybe I'll play your game and force you to listen to me.

No...silly....
I tell them what to look out for.....as fear is not a reliable deterrent.

You can't laugh....you don't exist.

 

[apophenia]

You can't laugh....you don't exist.

LMAO !

Please, Thief, watch this to the last line .... if you don't laugh you can have all my frubals !

And Godnotgod, I reckon you will kack yourself laughing too

I have loved this song since I was a kid, and only just discovered that it is actually the brainchild of Paul McCartney - a secret side project. Listening to it in that light, it's Sgt Pepper's Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band

 

[Robert.Evans]

You need to have a nervous system to be concious of anything. The universe would be here regardless of humans. The universe was here when there were no humans, that we know for a fact. Humans like to imagine though the universe was created specifically for us, probably because it gives people comfort.
.

Not according to QMs

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Not according to QMs

How so?

 

[Robert.Evans]

How so?

Some say that nothing existed until there was an observer.