Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Robert.Evans]

Hey Robert!....di you get a response that you prefer?......ever?

That i prefer compared with what?

I like a lot of the respones on this thread. I think a lot of people have said a lot of good things, and been very informative, least to me they have. And I thank you all....*applause*

 

[Rick O'Shez]

And I thank you all....*applause*

Does that mean we can all go home now?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Does that mean we can all go home now?

lol.... sorry, I suppose if I'd known you were all going to be up so late, I should have brought you tea and sandwhiches.
You've all done a great job!

 

[Robert.Evans]

Does that mean we can all go home now?

I think it is always more funny from you because of your avatar.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

We'll be singing songs all the way home on the bus...

 

[Robert.Evans]

We'll be singing songs all the way home on the bus...

haha... save a seat for me. I like to sit at the front.

By the way, what is your take on the OP question? How does everything manage to arrive where it is now?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

How does everything manage to arrive where it is now?

Everything's got to be somewhere.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Everything's got to be somewhere.

That's kind of a good answer. The trouble is though, where it is, is pretty well ordered, is it not? I see no way it is going to come about through luck, and I have not heard your take on it yet, though you may have given it in between your tea and biscuits

 

[Rick O'Shez]

We really have no idea, do we? Just speculations.

 

[godnotgod]

The trouble is though, where it is, is pretty well ordered, is it not? I see no way it is going to come about through luck....

There is no question that the universe is manifesting order and balance, even in chaos and disintegration. The question is how it came about. When you look into the face of the natural world and the cosmos, nothing is out of place. Everything is 'just so'. But this kind of 'just so' can never come about via deliberate will, because the moment the will is imposed, the moment there is deliberate doing, everything gets mucked up, and begins to appear artificial and contrived. Nature cannot be improved upon. It is perfect just as it is. The Japanese have a very high regard for this 'just so' state of nature. You might say they celebrate it in their art, philosophy, and spirituality. There is a practice in Japanese art (the name of it escapes me) wherein the practitioners attempt to place dots on canvas with ink and brush in a manner that the result appears spontaneous and guileless. The goal is that nothing appears deliberately executed, much like what the night sky looks like, where not a single star looks out of place, and 'just so'. IOW, it does not appear that some active agent deliberately and willfully placed each star precisely where they are, and yet, everything appears to be exactly 'right'.

In the Taoist world, we have an idea called 'ziran':

Ziran is a concept in Daoism that literally means “self so; so of its own; so of itself” and thus “naturally; natural; spontaneously; freely”

The word ‘ziran’ first occurs in the Daodejing (17, 23, 25, 51) and refers to the structure of Dao, which cannot be referred back to anything else.

D. T. Suzuki, in a brief article penned in 1959, makes the suggestion of ziran as an aesthetic of action: “Living is an act of creativity demonstrating itself. Creativity is objectively seen as necessity, but from the inner point of view of Emptiness it is ‘just-so-ness,’ (ziran). It literally means ‘by itself-so-ness,’ implying more inner meaning than ‘spontaneity’ or ‘naturalness'”

Ziran - Personal Tao

As for 'luck', think neither 'luck', nor 'not-luck'; neither 'chance', nor 'not-chance'.

 

[Thief]

There is no question that the universe is manifesting order and balance, even in chaos and disintegration. The question is how it came about. When you look into the face of the natural world and the cosmos, nothing is out of place. Everything is 'just so'. But this kind of 'just so' can never come about via deliberate will, because the moment the will is imposed, the moment there is deliberate doing, everything gets mucked up, and begins to appear artificial and contrived. Nature cannot be improved upon. It is perfect just as it is. The Japanese have a very high regard for this 'just so' state of nature. You might say they celebrate it in their art, philosophy, and spirituality. There is a practice in Japanese art (the name of it escapes me) wherein the practitioners attempt to place dots on canvas with ink and brush in a manner that the result appears spontaneous and guileless. The goal is that nothing appears deliberately executed, much like what the night sky looks like, where not a single star looks out of place, and 'just so'. IOW, it does not appear that some active agent deliberately and willfully placed each star precisely where they are, and yet, everything appears to be exactly 'right'.

In the Taoist world, we have an idea called 'ziran':

Ziran is a concept in Daoism that literally means “self so; so of its own; so of itself” and thus “naturally; natural; spontaneously; freely”

The word ‘ziran’ first occurs in the Daodejing (17, 23, 25, 51) and refers to the structure of Dao, which cannot be referred back to anything else.

D. T. Suzuki, in a brief article penned in 1959, makes the suggestion of ziran as an aesthetic of action: “Living is an act of creativity demonstrating itself. Creativity is objectively seen as necessity, but from the inner point of view of Emptiness it is ‘just-so-ness,’ (ziran). It literally means ‘by itself-so-ness,’ implying more inner meaning than ‘spontaneity’ or ‘naturalness'”

Ziran - Personal Tao

As for 'luck', think neither 'luck', nor 'not-luck'; neither 'chance', nor 'not-chance'.

Yeah well.....people that know how to make swords.....and use them.....have a lot to think about.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yeah well.....people that know how to make swords.....and use them.....have a lot to think about.

Yes, the mindfulness of chopping off the heads of peasants. Very spiritual.....

 

[Thief]

Thief is ninja!....sort of....

And martial artists do claim some sense of spirit.
I do, anyway.

I can't help but point out once more.....angels have been displayed with sword in hand.
Long standing concept.
Can't take it away.

 

[godnotgod]

Yeah well.....people that know how to make swords.....and use them.....have a lot to think about.

In the time it takes to think the thought, you could be dead. You need to nurture That which is faster than thought, and what That is, is Seeing, not thinking:

The Story Of Japanese Apprentice Matajura

Matajura wanted to become a great swordsman, but his father said he could never learn, because he wasn’t quick enough. So Matajura went to the famous dueler Banzo and asked to become his pupil. “How long will it take me to become a master?” he asked. “Suppose I become your servant, to be with you every minute, how long?”

“Ten years,” said Banzo.

“My father is getting old,” pleaded Matajura. “Before ten years have passed I will have to return home to take care of him. Suppose I work twice as hard. How long will it take me?”

“Thirty years,” said Banzo.

“How is that?” asked Matajura. “When I offer to work twice as hard, you say it will take three times as long. Let me make myself clear. I will work unceasingly. No hardship will be too much. How long will it take?”

“Seventy years,” said Banzo “A pupil in such a hurry learns slowly.”

Matajura understood. Without asking for any promises in terms of time, he became Banzo’s servant. Three years passed. Matajura cleaned, cooked, washed, and gardened. He was ordered never to speak of fencing or to touch a sword. He was very sad at this, but he had given his promise to the master and resolved to keep his word.

One day while Matajura was gardening, Banzo came up quietly behind him and gave him a terrible whack with a wooden sword. The next day in the kitchen, the same blow fell again. Thereafter, day in and day out, from every corner and at any moment, Matajura was attacked by Banzo’s wooden sword. He learned to live on the balls of his feet, ready to dodge at any moment. He became a body with no desires, no thought, only external readiness and quickness. Banzo smiled and started lessons. Soon, Matajura was the greatest swordsman in Japan.

 

[godnotgod]

I can't help but point out once more.....angels have been displayed with sword in hand.
Long standing concept.
Can't take it away.

In the East, a sword held by a Bodhisattva represents the cutting through of delusion and desire, which keep us from realizing Paradise. You may have noticed that Eastern temples display two ferocious lions or Fu dogs guarding the entrance to keep those not yet ready away. The Biblical image of the Cherubim with flaming sword represents the Logos, which essentially is the same thing. Where do you think many Biblical ideas come from, anyway?

"We begin to cultivate awareness of our Inner Sanctuary and the fact that God dwells within by becoming still. In Genesis, the Old Testament tells us that God "placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way of the tree of life." For those of you who are familiar with the Teachings of the Eastern Occult Doctrine or the Tarot, you will know that swords mystically refer to the mind, and a flaming sword refers to an I-mind burning with activity. Only through quieting the mind can we move past the flaming sword and return to Paradise. We do so through deep meditation. By regularly quieting the mind and seeking refuge in our Heart, we attune our senses to the stillness within, and that stillness begins to permeate our life."

Gathering Wisdom

So, you see, the sword is not a physical sword that means death, but is all about consciousness, going from delusion to Enlightenment, which, of course, is Paradise. IOW, it is only a symbol of 'cutting through' all delusion and suffering to the very heart of Reality.

Mummy, why do people die?
Well, my child, of course there was a time when people lived forever, they did this by eating fruit from the tree of life, but then the gods got angry and created a cherub with a flaming sword to stop them from eating its fruit.

heh...heh...heh...or was it the corrupt priests of the temples who re-wrote Genesis as a means of terrorizing their congregations in order to extract tribute from them. By paying the priests, who acted as go-between, one could guarantee a place in Heaven for oneself. But the story of Adam & Eve had to be altered so that the eating of the "Forbidden Fruit" became taboo, punishable by death, instead of the pathway to union with God it had previously been.

 

[godnotgod]

But not only is the 'Forbidden Fruit' a pathway to divine union, divine union itself is the realization of one's own divine nature: 'tas tvam asi'.

A man dies and goes to Heaven, whereupon he proceeds to knock on the Pearly Gates. From behind the Gates comes a voice: 'Who goes there?', to which the man replies: 'Me! It's Me!'. The voice replies: 'There are no 'Me's here. Begone!', at which the man leaves, disappointed. Contemplating the problem for a week, he then returns to the Gates, knocking loudly. 'Who knocks?', asks the voice from within. 'ME!, Lord! Can't you see, it's ME! You know! ME! ME! ME!', to which the voice responds: 'Nope. No such animal here. Go away!'. This time, the man retreats for an entire year. Upon his return, he quietly taps on the Gates. 'Who is it this time?', the voice asks, and the man whispers:

'Why, it's none other than YOU, my Lord',

at which the Gates swing wide open.

 

[Thief]

In the time it takes to think the thought, you could be dead. You need to nurture That which is faster than thought, and what That is, is Seeing, not thinking:

The Story Of Japanese Apprentice Matajura

Matajura wanted to become a great swordsman, but his father said he could never learn, because he wasn’t quick enough. So Matajura went to the famous dueler Banzo and asked to become his pupil. “How long will it take me to become a master?” he asked. “Suppose I become your servant, to be with you every minute, how long?”

“Ten years,” said Banzo.

“My father is getting old,” pleaded Matajura. “Before ten years have passed I will have to return home to take care of him. Suppose I work twice as hard. How long will it take me?”

“Thirty years,” said Banzo.

“How is that?” asked Matajura. “When I offer to work twice as hard, you say it will take three times as long. Let me make myself clear. I will work unceasingly. No hardship will be too much. How long will it take?”

“Seventy years,” said Banzo “A pupil in such a hurry learns slowly.”

Matajura understood. Without asking for any promises in terms of time, he became Banzo’s servant. Three years passed. Matajura cleaned, cooked, washed, and gardened. He was ordered never to speak of fencing or to touch a sword. He was very sad at this, but he had given his promise to the master and resolved to keep his word.

One day while Matajura was gardening, Banzo came up quietly behind him and gave him a terrible whack with a wooden sword. The next day in the kitchen, the same blow fell again. Thereafter, day in and day out, from every corner and at any moment, Matajura was attacked by Banzo’s wooden sword. He learned to live on the balls of his feet, ready to dodge at any moment. He became a body with no desires, no thought, only external readiness and quickness. Banzo smiled and started lessons. Soon, Matajura was the greatest swordsman in Japan.

All of this and you didn't get it.

He learned to 'live on the balls of his feet'......followed by no thought.

He became a swordsman?
Not really.
He LEARNED to be a swordsman.

You have to change your mind for that.
You have to change your existence for that.
You have to exist .....for that.

 

[godnotgod]

All of this and you didn't get it.

He learned to 'live on the balls of his feet'......followed by no thought.

He became a swordsman?
Not really.
He LEARNED to be a swordsman.

You have to change your mind for that.
You have to change your existence for that.
You have to exist .....for that.

I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely. The condition of no-thought must also include the elimination of any thought whatsoever of the existence of any self. Matajura became responsiveness itself, which is the prerequisite to being a swordsman. IOW, instant response, without an agent of response, had to be nurtured first before he could even think of becoming a swordsman.

You see, this is contrary to how we ordinarily learn a craft or discipline. Traditionally, in Japan, for example, a woodworker apprentice did no woodworking for about 10 years. All he did was sweep the floor, prepare glues, sharpen chisels, etc. Then, when his teacher felt the apprentice had absorbed the essence of woodworking, he was allowed to actually do the work. In the West, we have the opposite approach: the idea is one learns by doing, but the problem is that the understanding is lacking. I have seen it many times in my own craft of wood finishing where practitioners think they know more than they do.

No-thought did not follow living on the balls of his feet; they are one and the same.

 

[Thief]

I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely. The condition of no-thought must also include the elimination of any thought whatsoever of the existence of any self. Matajura became responsiveness itself, which is the prerequisite to being a swordsman. IOW, instant response, without an agent of response, had to be nurtured first before he could even think of becoming a swordsman.

You see, this is contrary to how we ordinarily learn a craft or discipline. Traditionally, in Japan, for example, a woodworker apprentice did no woodworking for about 10 years. All he did was sweep the floor, prepare glues, sharpen chisels, etc. Then, when his teacher felt the apprentice had absorbed the essence of woodworking, he was allowed to actually do the work. In the West, we have the opposite approach: the idea is one learns by doing, but the problem is that the understanding is lacking. I have seen it many times in my own craft of wood finishing where practitioners think they know more than they do.

No-thought did not follow living on the balls of his feet; they are one and the same.

If your hand does anything at all....it's because you thought you should...or felt like it.

Your next post is proof pending.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Your next post is proof pending.

Indeed. And thinking before posting is probably a good idea.