Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[godnotgod]

I think what got my goat this round was that intelligence isn't the intelligence we are familiar with. If that is the case, then it's time to find a new word to describe the sensation as one has pretty well blown one's theory out of the water.

It is permissible to utilize one's intellect to pay attention, which can lead to intelligence.

 

[godnotgod]

I rather thought....it was a matter of intellect.

...which is precisely the problem, as the intellect, the mind, is a self-created principle. It in turn creates the illusory 'I' from its collection of past experiences. It's what we call 'Identification'.

Descarte's cogito 'I think, therefore, I exist', is fatally flawed in that it already assumes the existence of 'I'.

oh that's right....you don't exist and you don't have thoughts.

Who is it that exists and has thoughts?

 

[godnotgod]

How to experience spiritual intelligence using contemporary secular principles.

 

[Thief]

...which is precisely the problem, as the intellect, the mind, is a self-created principle. It in turn creates the illusory 'I' from its collection of past experiences. It's what we call 'Identification'.

Descarte's cogito 'I think, therefore, I exist', is fatally flawed in that it already assumes the existence of 'I'.



Who is it that exists and has thoughts?

The rest of the participants have no problem.....including me.

You lack as a person....you claim you don't exist.

 

[Thief]

It is permissible to utilize one's intellect to pay attention, which can lead to intelligence.

and this is contrary to ALL you have posted previously.

 

[YmirGF]

Now, if you really did understand what 'I Am' signifies, you would automatically understand what I mean by intelligence. But you don't, so you don't.

 

[godnotgod]

The rest of the participants have no problem.....including me.

You 'have no problem' because you've accepted the illusion of 'I' as real. The prisoners in Plato's Cave also 'have no problem'. Both live in a vacuum.

 

[godnotgod]

Cosmic Consciousness. But the video doesn't show you know what 'I Am' is about.

 

[godnotgod]

You lack as a person....you claim you don't exist.

Which means there is nothing to prove on my part. But you have still failed to demonstrate the claim that you exist. As I said, 'I' is nothing more than a collection of past experiences. Where is 'I'? If you cannot show it, why should you be believed?

Answer the question: Who is it that exists and has thoughts?

 

[YmirGF]

The rest of the participants have no problem.....including me.

You lack as a person....you claim you don't exist.

He is rather talkative for someone who isn't there. What does it say about someone who is continually interacting with others who do not exist?

 

[godnotgod]

He is rather talkative for someone who isn't there. What does it say about someone who is continually interacting with others who do not exist?

'Who' is rather talkative and interacting?

 

[YmirGF]

'Who' is rather talkative and interacting?

You, you know, the 'who' that isn't supposed to exist... and yet it keeps rattling on. Or.... are you simply claiming to be the universe moving through a socket-puppet physical body?

PS: I'm thinking of starting a new topic, given that this one was pretty dead a few hundred posts ago, and I was wondering if I could quote one of your more pithy comments, gng.

 

[YmirGF]

Cosmic Consciousness. But the video doesn't show you know what 'I Am' is about.

If i know about what you call "cosmic" consciousness, how could I not know the significance of the statement "I AM!" Seriously.

 

[godnotgod]

You, you know, the 'who' that isn't supposed to exist... and yet it keeps rattling on. Or.... are you simply claiming to be the universe moving through a socket-puppet physical body?

PS: I'm thinking of starting a new topic, given that this one was pretty dead a few hundred posts ago, and I was wondering if I could quote one of your more pithy comments, gng.

Sure.

Just as there is no 'it' that rains; no whirlpool that whirls; no river that flows; there is no 'I' that exists or not-exists; no thinker of thoughts; no experiencer of the experience. If there is such an 'I' that rattles on, can you show it to me? Where is your 'I' located?

 

[godnotgod]

If i know about what you call "cosmic" consciousness, how could I not know the significance of the statement "I AM!" Seriously.

Ah! So you acknowledge Cosmic Consciousness, then.

If you did understand the meaning of 'I Am', you would know that there is no personal self, no 'I' that exists.

'I Am' is not a proclamation of existence, as in Descartes' cogito ergo sum, but of being.

 

[YmirGF]

Ah! So you acknowledge Cosmic Consciousness, then.

If you did understand the meaning of 'I Am', you would know that there is no personal self, no 'I' that exists.

'I Am' is not a proclamation of existence, as in Descartes' cogito ergo sum, but of being.

Re-read what I said. I said, "what you call "cosmic" consciousness". A subtle, but important, difference.
Dare I ask? Have you actually had the rather intriguing "I AM" experience? I have.

It is perhaps the zenith affirmation of being - of personality. There would not be much point in the exercise if it were not. For me, it was about the conscious emergence into multidimensional being. In the expanse of no self, reality dawns and a strangely familiar sun arises knowing full well what it is.

I think, as you are confusing the term "intelligence" you are also assuming I'm meaning the ordinary confines of personality that our society accepts. Is that fair to say? I will admit that I am stretching the term "personality" rather far beyond its ordinary sense. Then again, I try to be honest.

 

[godnotgod]

Re-read what I said. I said, "what you call "cosmic" consciousness". A subtle, but important, difference.
Dare I ask? Have you actually had the rather intriguing "I AM" experience? I have.

It is perhaps the zenith affirmation of being - of personality. There would not be much point in the exercise if it were not. For me, it was about the conscious emergence into multidimensional being. In the expanse of no self, reality dawns and a strangely familiar sun arises knowing full well what it is.

I think, as you are confusing the term "intelligence" you are also assuming I'm meaning the ordinary confines of personality that our society accepts. Is that fair to say? I will admit that I am stretching the term "personality" rather far beyond its ordinary sense. Then again, I try to be honest.

heh..heh..I was waiting for that shoe to drop. I DID read it correctly the first time. Now I want YOU to re-read it, because 'what I call cosmic consciousness' is what you are equating with 'I Am'. Essentially, you are acknowledging 'what I am calling cosmic consciousness', as being cosmic consciousness. IOW, by proclaiming 'I Am', you are automatically acknowledging what I call 'cosmic consciousness'. If that is not what you intend, then you don't understand 'I Am'.

Now you acknowledge 'no self-, which is 'not-I', both of which imply cosmic/universal consciousness. Consciousness is either personal or universal. If it is no longer personal, it must, therefore, be universal.

 

[YmirGF]

heh..heh..I was waiting for that shoe to drop. I DID read it correctly the first time. Now I want YOU to re-read it, because 'what I call cosmic consciousness' is what you are equating with 'I Am'. Essentially, you are acknowledging 'what I am calling cosmic consciousness', as being cosmic consciousness. IOW, by proclaiming 'I Am', you are automatically acknowledging what I call 'cosmic consciousness'. If that is not what you intend, then you don't understand 'I Am'.

Now you acknowledge 'no self-, which is 'not-I', both of which imply cosmic/universal consciousness. Consciousness is either personal or universal. If it is no longer personal, it must, therefore, be universal.

LOL. You really did miss an opportunity in politics as a spin doctor.

Now quit sniffing glue for a moment and try to appreciate what I am saying. I know that is difficult for you, but try. Again, I am not saying, "10 years ago I'd be agreeing with you" for no reason. Though, honestly, it was a bit longer ago than that. For decades, I was happy at home in the sense of "no self/not self" doctrine. It should not come as a surprise to you that I would mention it now as the pivot in a cathartic inner experience. You are the one stuck on your imaginings about "cosmic" consciousness. I will grant, as I've said before, that the experience does SEEM cosmic when compared to ordinary everyday consciousness. The only equation is in understanding that there are different states of consciousness, my point was, for the slow, if I understood what you were talking about in your endless rants about "cosmic" consciousness, how could I NOT know about the nature of the "I AM!" state, as both are relatively obscure states. Have you, for example, had the "Aum" experience? It's a show-stopper, I assure you.... very colourful, it is.... and loud...

In all fairness, in my POV, it is you who have not broken through the "no self/not self" illusion. Give it time.

 

[godnotgod]

LOL. You really did miss an opportunity in politics as a spin doctor.

Now quit sniffing glue for a moment and try to appreciate what I am saying. I know that is difficult for you, but try. Again, I am not saying, "10 years ago I'd be agreeing with you" for no reason. Though, honestly, it was a bit longer ago than that. For decades, I was happy at home in the sense of "no self/not self" doctrine. It should not come as a surprise to you that I would mention it now as the pivot in a cathartic inner experience. You are the one stuck on your imaginings about "cosmic" consciousness. I will grant, as I've said before, that the experience does SEEM cosmic when compared to ordinary everyday consciousness. The only equation is in understanding that there are different states of consciousness, my point was, for the slow, if I understood what you were talking about in your endless rants about "cosmic" consciousness, how could I NOT know about the nature of the "I AM!" state, as both are relatively obscure states. Have you, for example, had the "Aum" expereince? It's a show-stopper, I assure you.... very colourful, it is.... and loud...

In all fairness, in my POV, it is you who have not broken through the "no self/not self" illusion. Give it time.

It is not 'my' experience. It is the 'I Am', The Absolute, experiencing itself as the myriad universe, and manifesting itself as 'you' and 'I', when, in truth, there is no such 'I'; there is only THAT.

Everyone and Everything is always being experienced by 'I Am', but most are unaware of this background presence because of Identification, which tends to dominate the foreground of life, and creating the illusion of an ego acting upon the world. The personal self is subject to birth and death, but the 'I Am' is Unborn and therefore, Deathless. It has no memory and no history, as reflected in Yeshua's statement:

'Before Abraham was, I Am'

'I Am' is experiencing itself as the Universe, is the experience of Cosmic Consciousness, or, as Vivekenanda put it:

'The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

 

[YmirGF]

It is not 'my' experience. It is the 'I Am', The Absolute, experiencing itself as the myriad universe, and manifesting itself as 'you' and 'I', when, in truth, there is no such 'I'; there is only THAT.

Everyone and Everything is always being experienced by 'I Am', but most are unaware of this background presence because of Identification, which tends to dominate the foreground of life, and creating the illusion of an ego acting upon the world. The personal self is subject to birth and death, but the 'I Am' is Unborn and therefore, Deathless. It has no memory and no history, as reflected in Yeshua's statement:

'Before Abraham was, I Am'

'I Am' is experiencing itself as the Universe, is the experience of Cosmic Consciousness, or, as Vivekenanda put it:

'The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

Have it your way. I simply disagree. I can see why some would get attached to these definitions however. To an extent, it is understandable. Hope you get past this phase soon. Good Luck.