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Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

godnotgod

Thou art That
One thing - Time
and we have had lots of it

The Universe came about from a timeless condition, all at once, and then evolved from that point. If you think about it as a single event which is still going on, consciousness is just something that the universe is expressing through sentient beings. IOW, the consciousness involved does not belong to separate sentient beings, but to the universe itself, because those sentient beings, along with everything else, are what the universe is actually made up of. We are not 'things' that are contained IN the universe; we ARE the universe itself.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The Universe came about from a timeless condition, all at once, and then evolved from that point. If you think about it as a single event which is still going on, consciousness is just something that the universe is expressing through sentient beings. IOW, the consciousness involved does not belong to separate sentient beings, but to the universe itself, because those sentient beings, along with everything else, are what the universe is actually made up of. We are not 'things' that are contained IN the universe; we ARE the universe itself.

but you seem soooooooo disconnected.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
In case you haven't noticed I believe they color the photographs to indicate the type of light waves are in a galaxy and it is very pretty that way but not the original photograph. a naive person who doesn't bother to read the text might look at the pictures and actually think galaxies are colored that way. This is pretty typical of how science creates an image that isn't really there.

So there are particles and waves running around the universe and someone devises a picture on a theory of how they move but I believethe picture is not real.

I believe an xray can reveal whether I have a broken bone but my body doesn't really look like the xray.

"This is pretty typical of how science creates an image that isn't really there"

No the problem is you don't understand the pictures to begin with.

They don't add the colors for artistic reasons when doing the science or because they are fakes.

Sorry, but you have this all wrong. we have instruments that take pictures in xrays, Infrared and different wavelengths for a reason. One Infrared can penetrate gasses so we can see something we can't normally with visible light. We can also detect the electromagnetic spectrum. So light like the Cosmic back ground was visible light when it began, it has been stretched into the microwave band as the universe has expanded.

"These shape-shifting galaxies have taken on the form of a giant mask. The icy blue eyes are actually the cores of two merging galaxies, called NGC 2207 and IC 2163, and the mask is their spiral arms. The false-colored image consists of infrared data from NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope (red) and visible data from NASA's Hubble Space Telescope (blue/green).

NGC 2207 and IC 2163 met and began a sort of gravitational tango about 40 million years ago. The two galaxies are tugging at each other, stimulating new stars to form. Eventually, this cosmic ball will come to an end, when the galaxies meld into one. The dancing duo is located 140 million light-years away in the Canis Major constellation.

The infrared data from Spitzer highlight the galaxies' dusty regions, while the visible data from Hubble indicates starlight. In the Hubble-only image (not pictured here), the dusty regions appear as dark lanes."

The Hubble data correspond to light with wavelengths of .44 and .55 microns (blue and green, respectively). The Spitzer data represent light of 8 microns.

JPL | Space Images | Eyes in the Sky

"my body doesn't really look like the xray."

Your body really does look that way in Xray pictures. But you can't see in Xray, so they invented a way to use xray so they can take the picture and see (without using visible light) if you have a broken arm.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
I believe it is rational to represent the images based on the data and certainly the representations of the Big Bang are based on mathematical theory supposedly proven by the God particle, but the reality is that it is just theory and not actual fact.


That is not what this picture is with the bang using the wmap and know the new Planck satellite images. So they spend millions to fly into space just so they can show you fake pictures. LOL .

NO you don't understand them.

This is the remnant light left over from the Bang in microwave from wmap. Its also like a heat map, so we can tell temperatures. Then we can look with the Hubble in visible light and find cold or hot spots.

Wmap

CCast1_08_07.jpg



Then we built a better satellite to get finer detail. The Planck

201312_planck.jpg




The light is 13.7 billion years old with a margin of error of 1%.


Scientific American
When this cosmic background light was released billions of
years ago, it was as hot and bright as the surface of a star.
The expansion of the universe, however, has stretched space by a
factor of a thousand since then. The wavelength of the light has
stretched with it into the microwave part of the electromagnetic
spectrum

Its been stretched into the electromagnetic spectrum, which today we pick up as microwave.



http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...hat-is-the-cos mic-microw


Back in 2003 when Wmap took the first


"NASA RELEASES STUNNING IMAGES OF OUR INFANT UNIVERSE

NASA today released the best "baby picture" of the Universe ever taken; the image contains such stunning detail that it may be one of the most important scientific results of recent years.

Scientists using NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), during a sweeping 12-month observation of the entire sky, captured the new cosmic portrait, capturing the afterglow of the big bang, called the cosmic microwave background.

"We've captured the infant universe in sharp focus, and from this portrait we can now describe the universe with unprecedented accuracy," said Dr. Charles L. Bennett of the Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC), Greenbelt Md., and the WMAP Principal Investigator. "The data are solid, a real gold mine," he said.

One of the biggest surprises revealed in the data is the first generation of stars to shine in the universe first ignited only 200 million years after the big bang, much earlier than many scientists had expected.

In addition, the new portrait precisely pegs the age of the universe at 13.7 billion years old, with a remarkably small one percent margin of error.

The WMAP team found that the big bang and Inflation theories continue to ring true. The contents of the universe include 4 percent atoms (ordinary matter), 23 percent of an unknown type of dark matter, and 73 percent of a mysterious dark energy. The new measurements even shed light on the nature of the dark energy, which acts as a sort of an anti-gravity.

"These numbers represent a milestone in how we view our universe," said Dr. Anne Kinney, NASA director for astronomy and physics. "This is a true turning point for cosmology."

The light we see today, as the cosmic microwave background, has traveled over 13 billion years to reach us. Within this light are infinitesimal patterns that mark the seeds of what later grew into clusters of galaxies and the vast structure we see all around us.

Patterns in the big bang afterglow were frozen in place only 380,000 years after the big bang, a number nailed down by this latest observation. These patterns are tiny temperature differences within this extraordinarily evenly dispersed microwave light bathing the universe, which now averages a frigid 2.73 degrees above absolute zero temperature. WMAP resolves slight temperature fluctuations, which vary by only millionths of a degree.

Theories about the evolution of the universe make specific predictions about the extent of these temperature patterns. Like a detective, the WMAP team compared the unique "fingerprint" of patterns imprinted on this ancient light with fingerprints predicted by various cosmic theories and found a match.

WMAP will continue to observe the cosmic microwave background for an additional three years, and its data will reveal new insights into the theory of Inflation and the nature of the dark energy.

"This is a beginning of a new stage in our study of the early universe," said WMAP team member Prof. David N. Spergel of Princeton University, N.J. "We can use this portrait not only to predict the properties of the nearby universe, but can also use it to understand the first moments of the big bang," he said.

WMAP is named in honor of David Wilkinson of Princeton University, a world-renown cosmologist and WMAP team member who died in September 2002.

Launched on June 30, 2001, WMAP maintains a distant orbit about the second Lagrange Point, or "L2," a million miles from Earth.

WMAP is the result of a partnership between the GSFC and Princeton University. Additional Science Team members are located at Brown University, Providence R.I., the University
of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, the University of Chicago, and the University of California, Los Angeles. WMAP is part of the Explorer program, managed by GSFC.

For more information, including high-quality images, videos and press products, refer to:

NASA - Top Story - NEW IMAGE OF INFANT UNIVERSE REVEALS ERA OF FIRST STARS, AGE OF COSMOS, AND MORE - Feb. 11, 2003
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
As my grandmother use to say, "from nothing comes nothing" but not in the way Godnotgod believes.



“Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name thy kingdom nada thy will be nada in nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us not into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee.”


― Ernest Hemingway, A Clean Well Lighted Place
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
I am for meditation and similar techniques, but not in the way GodnotGod is saying that consciousness is in the navel. But because of its health benefits to the brain and the brain can help or change the body.

"

Is this the world's happiest man? Brain scans reveal French monk has 'abnormally large capacity' for joy - thanks to meditation

He added to AFP: 'It's a wonderful area of research because it shows that meditation is not just blissing out under a mango tree but it completely changes your brain and therefore changes what you are.'

He believes meditation can alter the brain and improve people's happiness in the same way that lifting weights puts on muscle.

Is this the world's happiest man? Brain scans reveal French monk found to have 'abnormally large capacity' for joy, and it could be down to meditation | Daily Mail Online

Also just adding in there once again "neuroplasticity", because the brain can grow new cells and connections, whereas a while ago they didn't know it.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
As my grandmother use to say, "from nothing comes nothing" but not in the way Godnotgod believes.
Not saying that at all. Am saying that Everything, which is just an illusion of actually being Something, comes out of Nothing. But Nothingness equates to Pure Consciousness. Bottom line: Everything is an event in Consciousness. The Big Bang was an event in Consciousness. It is the only explanation that satisfies the problem of the origin of matter, because there is none, and the problem of the BB occurring in Time and Space, which it didn't, because Consciousness is not in Time and Space.

In addition, Quantum Physics is telling us that what we see as 'things' are not things, but possibilities.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
I am for meditation and similar techniques, but not in the way GodnotGod is saying that consciousness is in the navel. But because of its health benefits to the brain and the brain can help or change the body.

"

Is this the world's happiest man? Brain scans reveal French monk has 'abnormally large capacity' for joy - thanks to meditation

He added to AFP: 'It's a wonderful area of research because it shows that meditation is not just blissing out under a mango tree but it completely changes your brain and therefore changes what you are.'

He believes meditation can alter the brain and improve people's happiness in the same way that lifting weights puts on muscle.

Is this the world's happiest man? Brain scans reveal French monk found to have 'abnormally large capacity' for joy, and it could be down to meditation | Daily Mail Online

Also just adding in there once again "neuroplasticity", because the brain can grow new cells and connections, whereas a while ago they didn't know it.

Well, there you go, more proof that consciousness grows the brain, and not the other way around. We also have scientific documentation showing long term meditators having thicker cerebral cortexes than non-meditators.

Zazen (meditation) has clearly demonstrated that with the mind’s eye centered in the hara the proliferation of random ideas is diminished and the attainment of one-pointedness accelerated, since a plethora of blood from the head is drawn down to the abdomen, “cooling” the brain and soothing the autonomic nervous system. This in turn leads to a greater degree of mental and emotional stability. One who functions from his hara, therefore, is not easily disturbed. He is, moreover, able to act quickly and decisively in an emergency owing to the fact that his mind, anchored in his hara, does not waver.


With the mind in the hara, narrow and egocentric thinking is superseded by a broadness of outlook and a magnanimity of spirit. This is because thinking from the vital hara center, being free of mediation by the limited discursive intellect, is spontaneous and all embracing. Perception from the hara tends toward integration and unity rather than division and fragmentation. In short, it is thinking which sees things steadily and whole.


The Hara: Seat of Enlightenment
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
He added to AFP: 'It's a wonderful area of research because it shows that meditation is not just blissing out under a mango tree but it completely changes your brain and therefore changes what you are.'

I've been meditating for 35 years and I think there is a basis for saying that. But I have no idea what the benefits of meditation have to do with ideas of an intelligent universe or cosmic consciousness or whatever. I just don't see a connection and frankly the whole discussion on meditation, while interesting, looks completely off-topic to me.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
If we were not more awake in the awakened state then how is it that we know we know immediately we just awoke from the sleep-dream state? If you get what I'm saying, then what's the problem? It's quite simple, really.
I am saying that we do not get "more awake" from where we are now. Not from the dream. There is a conscious and unconsciousness.


It's not an assumption; it's an experience.
It is an assumption. An experience means nothing. Every bit of information about an experience is assumed. It is not till it is verified by observation that it can be anything other than assumption.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
The 'evidence' consists primarily of probed responses from the brain which elicit emotions and memories, all of which emergent theory jumps to the conclusion that these responses are 'mind', but in reality, there is no proof that this is so. At this point it is just a hypothesis. We don't know, for example, whether consciousness is the responsible agent for programming the brain in the first place to store these memories for later retrieval and learning, so that we don't have to go through the painful process of burning our finger on a hot stove repeatedly in order to exercise caution in the future, as well as not having to attend, up front, to the autonomic bodily functions such as heartbeat, bloodflow, respiration, digestion, etc.

What you call 'subjective' experiences have been verified, over and over again, by practitioners independent of each other all around the world throughout history. I have has such experiences that, at first I doubted, but later learned that others came to the same conclusions. When I said the experiences were 'not of the mind', I meant they did not come about as a result of the thinking, rational mind. They come about as a result of an experience in consciousness, without mind. The spiritual view of 'mind' is that it is a self-created principle. IOW, it is illusory. We are very familiar with the machinations of mind, and as a result, make efforts to transcend its faulty workings. It is the mind where delusion dwells. Where mind is nonfunctional, where is delusion to be found?

Sounds to me like you equate 'mind' with 'brain' one for one. So why even use the word 'mind'? You should just use the word 'brain'.

During mediation, the point is to subdue the overactive brain so that consciousness can come into play. This can be done in several ways: by counting the breath; by focusing on the hara; or initiating an observer to simply watch thoughts as they arise and subside, without becoming attached to them in any way, as 'my' thoughts.

It has been verified that our brain is the root of our mind. Why? Brain surgery. Brain injury. Any alterations of the brain cause an immediate change in our "mind". If you don't believe the brain is part of your "mind" then why not just have it removed. What function does a brain serve if it is not the 'mind'?

And the "mind" is the function of the brain. The brain is an organ.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
It is an assumption. An experience means nothing. Every bit of information about an experience is assumed. It is not till it is verified by observation that it can be anything other than assumption.

Indeed. And I know from experience that it's easy to make assumptions about meditative experiences and altered states of consciousness. Unfortunately such assumptions are often the result of wishful thinking or over-active imaginations, and they have no objective basis.
But again, I'm not sure what this has to with an intelligent universe.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
I am saying that we do not get "more awake" from where we are now. Not from the dream. There is a conscious and unconsciousness.

No, not so black and white as that. Consciousness is active during dreaming. The evidence that we ARE more awake from the transition from dream-sleep into wakefulness, is the fact that we immediately recognize dreaming for what it is, while during dreaming, we do not know we are dreaming.

You had pointed out previously that, even during the waking state, there exists a certain amount of 'delusion', in varying degrees. Some of us are less deluded than others. What this points to is a higher state in which no delusion is the condition. IOW, what I am saying to you, is that there are levels of 'wakefulness'.


On the basis of considerable evidence, roughly five levels of consciousness are possible for man:

1. Deep sleep without dreams
2. Sleep with dreams
3. Waking Sleep (Identification)
4. Self-Transcendence (Self Remembering; The Observer)
5. Objective Consciousness (Cosmic Consciousness)

from: The Master Game, Robert deRopp

It is an assumption. An experience means nothing. Every bit of information about an experience is assumed. It is not till it is verified by observation that it can be anything other than assumption.

Experience cannot be an assumption. An assumption is always based upon thought. Experience is never based on thought. Thought about the experience comes after the experience. The verification of the experience is the experience itself.

Having said that, the metaphor of the rope seen as a snake is also an experience, but it is one that is distorted via previous conditioning via thought, which is why the rope is seen as a snake in the first place.

You accidentally burn your finger on a hot stove, and immediately recoil. At that precise moment, there is only 'Ouch!'. Immediately afterward, you think: 'Oh, I burned my finger!'. There is no assumption built into the experience itself. There is only the experience, period. Furthermore, the experience itself is impersonal. The personal 'I' is added after the experience. IOW, there is no experiencer of the experience. In terms of the spiritual experience, it too is impersonal. None of its content comes from the subject in Identification; all of it comes from a universal source beyond anything the subject knows or has ever experienced previously.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
It has been verified that our brain is the root of our mind. Why? Brain surgery. Brain injury. Any alterations of the brain cause an immediate change in our "mind". If you don't believe the brain is part of your "mind" then why not just have it removed. What function does a brain serve if it is not the 'mind'?

And the "mind" is the function of the brain. The brain is an organ.

What you are calling 'mind' is simply the storage of information and past experiences. When the brain is injured, of course these storage areas are going to be affected. The immediate change is not in 'mind', but in brain. What can change mind is consciousness, as when the over active thinking mind can be subdued via the deliberate focusing of consciousness, not on the brain, but on the breath or on the hara. This not only quiets the discursive mind, but causes the brain to output large amounts of alpha waves. Additionally, brain can be physically changed by consciousness. Long term meditators grow thicker cortexes than non-mediators. Now proven.

Mind is not a function of the brain, but of consciousness Your mind works differently when you are awake than when you are asleep due to the level of conscious awareness.


Q: When you are not thinking, where is 'mind'?

In addition, non-locality of the brain has been demonstrated:

The Self-aware Universe: How Consciousness Creates the Material World - Amit Goswami - Google Books
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I've been meditating for 35 years and I think there is a basis for saying that. But I have no idea what the benefits of meditation have to do with ideas of an intelligent universe or cosmic consciousness or whatever. I just don't see a connection and frankly the whole discussion on meditation, while interesting, looks completely off-topic to me.
Newbie. :)
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
And the "mind" is the function of the brain. The brain is an organ.

Stating that mind is a function of brain is not the same thing as stating that brain is mind itself. Mind is material in the latter and non material in the former. If you mean the former, where is this 'mind'?
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
I consider the "the universe formed out of nothing or a point source" concept nonsense.

Everything in this universe rotates including the universe itself. Although the current rate of universal rotation is minuscule in the order of 10^-13 radius per sec, if we go back in time, where the universe would appear to shrink rather than expand then the Law of conservation of angular momentum implies the earlier universe must have been rotating faster. If we follow this through we reach a point where if we reduce the radius any more then the outer reaches would approach relativistic speeds and we would have to break the next axiom of classical physics and exceed the speed of light to shrink any more. I therefore hypothesis the smallest the universe could have been is a disk or sphere geometry with a minimum diameter of around 30000 km spinning with a very high angular velocity. Ok if we don't want to break the Angular Momentum or Speed of light Laws, then where did all this angular momentum come from if it originated from nothing or a point. The only explanation that fits is that this universe was derived from a previous collapsing spinning earlier universe so the angular momentum is conserved. An oscillating universe expand, contract expand contract ad infinitum.

Ok so why is the current measured rate of expansion apparently increasing instead of decreasing if this were true?

There were vast quantities of photons generated in the early stages of the early universe especially after the initial matter/antimatter annihilation.
If we now consider these photons as an outward moving shell of photons travelling spherically will have a radius today of around 13.7 billion light years.
Matter however has a much higher inertia and in the same period has expanded to a far lesser extent as it is not traveling at relativistic speeds. Therefore in my mind we have a sphere of matter within a sphere of photons. Further as electrons have an intermediate tiny mass I would suggest our main matter universe is also surrounded by an intermediate shell of electrons. In effect this would make the "matter universe (us)" positive relative to this negative electron shell.
If we use Einsteins Mass Energy equivalence formula E=mc^2 then the mass equivalent of that shell of photons will be substantial. So rather than some intangible veil of light and electrons on the outer fringes of our universe we actually would have shells of substantial mass equivalence. So my model of the universe is like an onion, shells within shells. As the early photons were from nuclear rather than electronic transitions they will mostly be in the high energy gamma range, so there mass equivalence will be proportionally large.

Next we know gravity affects light eg galactic lens effect, Einsteins occlusion predictions. Almost as if photons did have mass.

Now consider my onion universe expanding , slowing as it reaches its maximum radius, stops, then starts the next contraction process. The first to be effected almost instantly will be the lightest particles while the main matter which has huge inertia and momentum lags and continues outward while the lighter outer shells begin to contract inward. Now add to this the potential of a huge hypothetical negative electron shell rapidly contracting inward toward our "positive" rocky central "matter universe', three sets of forces accelerating our current outward expansion.
1. Outward movement continues because of inertia and Momentum
2. Electric Attraction force between negative electron sphere and positive "matter universe"
3. Gravitational attraction force between "matter universe" and mass equivalent photon shell

All this to me, adds up to indicating, that currently our universe is actually in the early stages of the collapse phase. If we were still in the expansion phase then we would observe a decelerating expansion, but as we observe an accelerating expansion then the collapsing shells must currently be close and approaching. They will pass through us increasing the inward gravitational and eventually pull us back to an object around 30000 km across and do it all again.

Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.
Cheers
 
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