Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Rick O'Shez]

So what is your belief? Buddha? Or is it a philosophical stance of thinking your atheist learning actually helps you in some way or puts you above others? You must have a leaning, you said so yourself.

I have confidence in the Buddhist approach, which from my point of view is investigating personal experience and trying to understand the way things really are. I don't really have "beliefs" these days. I do have assumptions but I regard those as provisional, and I try very hard to keep an open mind. In a way it's a bit like the approach that science has, and Buddhism has been called "the science of the mind".

Yeah, I'm an atheist too, but that has little practical relevance in my life. I enjoy the odd debate about God on forums like this, but that's as far as it goes.

But yes, I do see a lot of metaphysical clutching at straws. Like I said, it's understandable and if it helps people sleep at night, well fine, but let's not kid ourselves that any of it is necessarily true.

 

[Nakosis]

Much of the Buddhist scriptures and sayings attributed to Gautama were written about four hundred y ears after his death. By the time they were written, Buddhism had split into many sects. What do we have then? Even the best scholars are not sure of the accuracy of the Buddhist scriptures. In Christianity, however, we have an accurate historical account written by eyewitnesses to Jesus and the events surrounding His life.


This explains why Buddhism is so divided in its teachings- there is no solid basis for authority, and therefore interpretations are likewise going to vary drastically. They also have evolved over time, away from their evident roots in Hinduism, because of this lack of authority. And this also explains the wide breadth of beliefs within Buddhism. Thus in history we can see that Buddhism split into two divisions, Hinayana and Mahayana. Hinayana, which was propagated by Buddha, was an agnostic religion with no God, while Mahayana evolved with the concept of a divine savior.
The Question of Authority In Buddhism

I'm pretty much anti-authoritarian. I wonder if this affects my leanings...

 

[YmirGF]

But yes, I do see a lot of metaphysical clutching at straws. Like I said, it's understandable and if it helps people sleep at night, well fine, but let's not kid ourselves that any of it is necessarily true.

And more than a little barking at the moon...

 

[godnotgod]

Pretending to be an owl....does not make you wise.

What appears wise to you may simply be our ordinary mind.

Can you answer the questions instead of attacking the pointing finger?

Who is it that lives?
Who is it that dies?

 

[metis]

Pretending to be wise does not make you an owl.

That's a hoot!

 

[godnotgod]

Careful consideration by multiple individuals based on empirical evidence is yes.

OK. So that must mean that those who are determining what delusion is, are not themselves deluded, correct?

I am not not sure what you are talking about. I have a feeling your trying to coax me into some sort of answer that you have in mind and I think this will be a lot faster if you come out and say it.

I was trying to leave the obvious answer of 'waking up' to you. So, we know we have been dreaming when we awaken.

The higher consciousness that you speak of has no such observable evidence except for those that have allegedly experienced it in a fully subjective way. A group of people that had allgedly been abducted by aliens will be able to deliberate on those subjective experiences but its not evidence because there is no empirical evidence to speak of.

I thought the fact that higher consciousness is without factual evidence was understood. Unlike abduction events, however, the experience of higher consciousness is accessible, verifiable, and repeatable by anyone. It is like the metaphor of Plato's Cave: one must go see for oneself to verify the existence of the Sun. In addition, unlike abduction, the spiritual experience is not subjective; it is impersonal, as its source is not the personal self. It has nothing to do with 'I'.

The reason it is accessible and repeatable is because the Source of Higher Consciousness is always present.

I don't believe the mind is non-material. I think it is a system that exhibits qualities and those qualities are often misconstrued as having come from some non-material object such as a soul.

I don't think that is the usual view. It is more that mind is a product of brain, as in 'emergent theory'.

So are you saying that the mind is, in fact, the brain itself, rather than a creation of the brain, which is the scientific view of emergence?

 

[godnotgod]

That's a hoot!

Again I ask: 'hoo....hoo....'

 

[godnotgod]

Much of the Buddhist scriptures and sayings attributed to Gautama were written about four hundred y ears after his death. By the time they were written, Buddhism had split into many sects. What do we have then? Even the best scholars are not sure of the accuracy of the Buddhist scriptures. In Christianity, however, we have an accurate historical account written by eyewitnesses to Jesus and the events surrounding His life.


This explains why Buddhism is so divided in its teachings- there is no solid basis for authority, and therefore interpretations are likewise going to vary drastically. They also have evolved over time, away from their evident roots in Hinduism, because of this lack of authority. And this also explains the wide breadth of beliefs within Buddhism. Thus in history we can see that Buddhism split into two divisions, Hinayana and Mahayana. Hinayana, which was propagated by Buddha, was an agnostic religion with no God, while Mahayana evolved with the concept of a divine savior.
The Question of Authority In Buddhism

I'm pretty much anti-authoritarian. I wonder if this affects my leanings...

The source of the quote re: Buddhism is the usual ignorant propaganda from Christian sources in the attempt to belittle Buddhism and prop up Christianity as the only authentic religion. The fact of the matter is that the perceived 'differences' are superficial. Because Buddhism is a system based on practice and individual experience rather than on theology or dogma, the different forms that have emerged differ less in what they believe the Buddha's teachings to be than in how they believe Buddhism should be practiced in daily life.

In addition, to say that Mahayana implies a divine saviour is also misleading. Mahayana means 'big boat', an allusion to group, rather than individual enlightenment, as in Hinayana. It is via enlightenment that 'salvation' comes, as it illuminates ignorance, the source of suffering.

Mahayana is, in fact, 'Big Boat Buddhism'.

The authority found in Buddhism is a single universal source found within all sentient beings, what the Buddha referred to as 'original mind', and what the Hindus referred to by saying, 'the saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere'.

also:

'The fundamental difference between Buddhism and other religions is that Buddhism has no God or gods before whom people bow down in return for peace of mind. The spirit enmeshed in the Buddha's teachings refuses to offer a god in exchange for freedom from anxiety. Instead, freedom from anxiety can only be found at that point where the Self settles naturally upon itself.'

from: 'From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment', by Dogen/Uchiyama

 

[godnotgod]

And more than a little barking at the moon...

Whether with a hoot, a howl, or an affirmative 'woof', when seen with a clear eye, the moon is the same to all. Only those who rabidly attack the pointing finger will growl, brain-locked by their mental conditioning as they are, thereby preventing them from seeing Reality as it actually is.

 

[YmirGF]

Whether a hoot, a howl, or an affirmative 'woof', when seen with a clear eye, the moon is the same to all. Only those who rabidly attack the pointing finger will growl, brain-locked by their mental conditioning as they are, thereby preventing them from seeing Reality as it actually is.

So sayeth the inerrant Prophet.

 

[godnotgod]

So sayeth the inerrant Prophet.

The inerrant finger is not pointing to me, but to the moon.

LOOK! THE MOON!

WOOF!

did you miss it? awww.....too bad!.....must've been too distracted, growling at the pointing finger.

Remember Bodhisattva Rule Number One, now:

ATTENTION! ATTENTION! ATTENTION!

...because you may not have the opportunity to see Reality for another million years.

 

[godnotgod]

but.....your ARE your beliefs.....or lack thereof....

At birth, you held zero beliefs. So you don't exist until you attach yourself to a belief?

 

[Thief]

At birth, you held zero beliefs. So you don't exist until you attach yourself to a belief?

I lean to saying....yeah.

I believe you need a sufficient spirit to crossover.

But to be fair....I've heard a quote....
Let the children come to Me....for of such is made the kingdom of heaven.

It then seems....many people learn word salad, think themselves wise.....and then fail altogether.

You preach as if to undo what we have learned.
That's not bad really.
But your technique flaws the effort.

Too much salad.

 

[godnotgod]

I lean to saying....yeah.

So if that is true, who was that before it latched onto its beliefs? A piece of meat? Come, now, Thiefy boy; use the head your God gave you!

 

[Thief]

So if that is true, who was that before it latched onto its beliefs? A piece of meat? Come, now, Thiefy boy; use the head your God gave you!

My head might be bone.....but it is still considered flesh.
and flesh forms spirit.

 

[godnotgod]

It then seems....many people learn word salad, think themselves wise.....and then fail altogether.

I'm not concerned with the superficiality of success and failure. Is that important to you?

I sense that you're just parroting others here who have knee jerk labeled my posts as word salad without thinking things through.

 

[godnotgod]

My head might be bone.....but it is still considered flesh.
and flesh forms spirit.

Who was that before it acquired belief? Can you remember?

 

[godnotgod]

So sayeth the inerrant Prophet.

Eh? Whazzat you say? Inherent Profit? Yup! Gotta take care of my Inner Cash Cow...or is that muh Golden Goose? Yuk!

 

[godnotgod]

'Let's all get up and dance to a song
that was a hit before your mother was born,
though she was born a long, long time ago,
your mother should know...'

The Beatles
*****

'What did your face look like before your mother was born?'

Zen source
*****

 

[godnotgod]

John Hagelin, theoretical physicist and spiritual guru, shows us the link between the old materialist paradigm and the intelligence of the unified field. This will bring you up to speed. Listen up: