Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Robert.Evans]

Hold on. Since one result has to happen, why would you say that 6 just won't happen ( in one trillion )?
They all have equal odds, and one of them has to come up.

If we didn't get a 6 ( if our universe wasn't as it is ), you would be asking why we got a 7, or an 8, or a 9... or any other number that came up.
One of them has to come up, why not 6?

What I said was if the dice has a trillion sides on it (not six) but we want the number six to come up, it is more likely that it won't.... there are too many possibilities of it landing on another. The six represents the universe forming to where it stands now.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Why is it necessary? Because of the second law of thermodynamics.

Okay

You cannot create order without a pre-existing order somewhere else that can be sacrificed and turned into a useless mess. You cannot have a creative thought without eating and burning useful ordered energy in the form of animals or plants. Everytime you have a nice idea, you accelerated the eventual doom of the universe towards heat death. The same when you ponder about the qualities of God or when you fall in love. Try that without eating.

good point

You cannot generate any sort of useful work without generating useless heat somewhere else that cannot be further used to create additional work.

okay, agreed

This is also why you need cooling fans when your computer needs to compute a lot of information. For information is physical and strongly correlated with entropy and thermodynamics. They are basically the same thing. No intelligence possible without low entropy you can tap on.

Do you tink that God also has a reservoir of order He can tap on in order to be intelligent? Because if He hasn't, then His creative processes cannot in any way be made similar to the ones we follow in this Universe. Ergo, all arguments from design, which presuppone human intelligence toward a goal, fall apart.

Ciao

- viole

I don't agree with the ending. This universe, in another form, has happened many times over. We can say, relative to us, that it is the higher-consciousness of God. So you words fit correctly. What does happen is just that. What comes about comes about through what has been before and is ever replenishing itself.
The first ''mess'' is the divine death of the saviour. This has happened many times over as there are more than one reality. Once we move into this realm of change, entropy is seen. Thankyou for the thoughts, they fit well, though I doubt you meant it as such.
The reason it happens here is because it has happened before.

 

[Koldo]

What I said was if the dice has a trillion sides on it (not six) but we want the number six to come up, it is more likely that it won't.... there are too many possibilities of it landing on another. The six represents the universe forming to where it stands now.

I comprehend that. And I replied exactly on that context.
It has to land on something and It is equally probable for every number to come up. So if rather than 6 we got another number like 9, you would be asking: Why did we get a 9?

We got a 6 because a number had to come up.

 

[Robert.Evans]

The Shakespearean monkey story is only to illustrate something about probability, ie, given enuf trials, otherwise unlikely things will happen. It's better known as Murphy's Law.

But calculating probability depends upon assumptions. In this case, there is a single universe. But we don't know that. Were we to presume an infinite number of them, then even the most unlikely occurrence would happen somewhere some time.

But that is part of my argument in the OP. I am asking why it is we think that it will. If monkeys can't do it, why should a multiverse?

Time increases the number of trials for something to occur, thereby increasing the probability.

It still does not mean that it will happen.

We can't be sure of anything we cannot observe in any way. If one cannot quantify any premises, then one cannot make a probability based argument.

But isn't it meaningless to talk about monkey's writing particular sonnets? No one's philosophy or theory rests upon such a thing.

The point was probability, and it shows that it will not happen and therefore life is also improbable and so it needs order injecting into it.

Now, on to the bigger problem:
If one presumes an intelligence is necessary to explain the improbability of universe we observe, then how improbable is the existence of an even more complex intelligence?

I don't see it as more complex, I see it as the same, just not in the same form.... like an child becoming an adult. If anything, as regards the consciousness of God, it is the other way round.

 

[Robert.Evans]

My stastical intuitions are not great, but it's hard to see what is wrong with this.

On a trillion-sided die, if it were fair, we would expect a particular side to show once in every trillion tumbles. It can't be guaranteed but neither can it be guaranteed that a six will come up once in every six tumbles of a six-sided die. It would be astonishing if it never came up six (in continued attempts). I think there is a fundamental error in the OP.

I don't think so. When there are only six numbers, there are only five other possibilities. But with a trillion sides, and still wanting the six to come up, everytime you roll it there are far more possibilities for it to come up on something else, almost a trillion!
And if it did do it fairly, we have recourse to ask why.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I comprehend that. And I replied exactly on that context.
It has to land on something and It is equally probable for every number to come up. So if rather than 6 we got another number like 9, you would be asking: Why did we get a 9?

We got a 6 because a number had to come up.

You did not answer that... but no matter. You still don't seem to get what I am saying. I am saying that it HAS TO BE a number six, because the six represents this universe. Do you understand now?? No other number will do.

 

[Robert.Evans]

A trillion minus 1 equals:

nine hundred ninety-nine billion nine hundred ninety-nine million nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine.

Why would it ever land on six if six was the number that you wanted?

 

[Koldo]

You did not answer that... but no matter. You still don't seem to get what I am saying. I am saying that it HAS TO BE a number six, because the six represents this universe. Do you understand now?? No other number will do.

Apparently you are not understanding what I am saying.
If some other universe existed, a living being on that universe would be asking why that specific universe exists rather than ours ( or some other ).
And if that universe had no living beings then the question couldn't even be asked.

 

[Koldo]

A trillion minus 1 equals:

nine hundred ninety-nine billion nine hundred ninety-nine million nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine.

Why would it ever land on six if six was the number that you wanted?

You might be too caught up on the 'wanted' part. There is no such thing as wanting a particular universe. This would presume a creator that wanted a particular universe and that throwed a dice that landed exactly on the number that represented the universe he wanted. However, this is not the scenario we are talking about, is it?

We are talking about a completely impartial dice who gives rise to an universe based on its result, and has no preference one way or the other.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Apparently you are not understanding what I am saying.
If some other universe existed, a living being on that universe would be asking why that specific universe exists rather than ours ( or some other ).
And if that universe had no living beings then the question couldn't even be asked.

okay..... but from the first argument, that being this universe, that cannot work.

Now if we say there may be more, which is not proven - though I have no problem with the multiverse - then you would have to say that there are many ways that a universe could exist.
That means each one would not be a universe that we could live in as the fine tuning only creates what 'we' see. If it is the same kind of universe, then the odds just got worse, as this would mean that there are many universes all coming up with a six.

 

[Robert.Evans]

You might be too caught up on the 'wanted' part. There is no such thing as wanting a particular universe. This would presume a creator that wanted a particular universe and that throwed a dice that landed exactly on the number that represented the universe he wanted. However, this is not the scenario we are talking about, is it?

Isn't it? The point is that this universe only works one way, not many.

We are talking about a completely impartial dice who gives rise to an universe based on its result, and has no preference one way or the other.

How can it be impartial if it is conscious and has order within it, the ''order'' being the idea that the universe is conscious. Luck will not bring about a universe that works the way it does.

 

[Koldo]

okay..... but from the first argument, that being this universe, that cannot work.

How can it not work? Explain.

Now if we say there may be more, which is not proven - though I have no problem with the multiverse - then you would have to say that there are many ways that a universe could exist.
That means each one would not be a universe that we could live in as the fine tuning only creates what 'we' see. If it is the same kind of universe, then the odds just got worse, as this would mean that there are many universes all coming up with a six.

Multiverse is not a part of my answer.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Consider this:
Dr. David D. Deutsch, Institute of Mathematics, Oxford University:

If we nudge one of these constants just a few percent in one direction, stars burn out within a million years of their formation, and there is no time for evolution. If we nudge it a few percent in the other direction, then no elements heavier than helium form. No carbon, no life. Not even any chemistry. No complexity at all.
Dr. Paul Davies, noted author and professor of theoretical physics at Adelaide University:

"The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural 'constants' were off even slightly. You see," Davies adds, "even if you dismiss man as a chance happening, the fact remains that the universe seems unreasonably suited to the existence of life -- almost contrived -- you might say a 'put-up job'."

 

[Robert.Evans]

How can it not work? Explain.

If there is only one universe, then the odds are immense.

Multiverse is not a part of my answer.

You said ''if some other universe existed''. Explain please

 

[Koldo]

Isn't it? The point is that this universe only works one way, not many.

What do you mean by 'work'?

How can it be impartial if it is conscious and has order within it, the ''order'' being the idea that the universe is conscious.

Wait. From where does the assumption that the universe is conscious come from?

Luck will not bring about a universe that works the way it does.

How so? We have been talking about probabilities so far. And, even if there is an extremely low chance that a given universe might come into existence this doesn't mean this chance is equal to zero.

 

[Robert.Evans]

What do you mean by 'work'?

the universe works, it develops to the point where we are now

Wait. From where does the assumption that the universe is conscious come from?

the OP. There is order needed and that implies intelligence.

How so? We have been talking about probabilities so far. And, even if there is an extremely low chance that a given universe might come into existence this doesn't mean this chance is equal to zero.

1 in a trillion, for example, is close to impossible. I forget what the number is that science uses to say anything after that is impossible, but there are many things about the universe which have incredible odds, hence the fine tuning argument in the first place. This is why I am saying that there must be something that brings order to it, that something is the higher-consciousness of God, for without it, chaos remains chaos, as that is what it is

 

[Koldo]

If there is only one universe, then the odds are immense.

The odds are immense to all possible universes.
Imagine any universe you want and the odds that such universe would exist, rather than ours, is equal to the odds we have on our universe.

You said ''if some other universe existed''. Explain please

The probability doesn't require the actual existence of other universes.
They are being considered as hypothetical possibilities.

 

[Robert.Evans]

The odds are immense to all possible universes.
Imagine any universe you want and the odds that such universe would exist, rather than ours, is equal to the odds we have on our universe.



The probability doesn't require the actual existence of other universes.
They are being considered as hypothetical possibilities.

But they have to have life, and if there is only one way a universe will work, our way, because of the argument of fine tuning, then how can any other universe exist/work? It can't, unless it is completely different to our universe, which I have already mentioned.

 

[Robert.Evans]

If the odds are all ridiculous, then why would any come into existence?

 

[Robert.Evans]

If monkeys typing cannot bring anything meaningful into being, even with a considerable amount of time to help the odds, then why think that a universe can without something conscious that can order it. That has to be part of the universe, intrinsic to it, part of it. Then it is one, unseen, and it works. The odds then are acceptable as it finds its own Self.