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One might also say the same about the guy who lifts himself up in his humbleness.... haha
The conclusion of that can be taken many ways. Knowledge can be a dangerous thing, it can open but also it can close the mind. Spiritually that is what it has done with scientists who think they know something
Spiritually blind people will never understand. That does not mean that other do not.
Time was seen as the hero not infinity. Even the argument was withdrawn about monkeys when they saw it was so stupid. So we are left with how did everything come into being without intelligence intrinsic to it to order it in the firstplace
But you confuse youself. In THIS universe it is DEFINITELY needed. That is the fine tuning argument. Chaos is not going to somehow assemble processes that form to make random properties become non-random.... it just is not going to happen in this universe. That is the point. So intelligence needs to be intrinsic, imbued within the universe itself. The universe needs to be conscious.
They occur ''naturally''? How? And what does that mean anyway? We see what everyday?
Yes... so far I'm all ears..
Okay...
Those statements have nothing to do with spirituality - they're even presented as scientific (albeit "myths"). You've done nothing to demonstrate that they're not straw men arguments and insulting my intelligence just because (you think) I'm not spiritual doesn't help you case.
It's certainly not perfect and only really makes very general points. That's part of the reason why it's not a "scientific myth popularly accepted as fact". It's certainly not the be-all and end-all of the concept of the nature of the universe being possible by "random chance".
You've still not demonstrated that it's not possible for the universe to come in to being without a conscious intelligence guiding it.
Oh, but it does. Whatever the odds are in 1 universe, they become a trillion times more likely if there are a trillion universes. With an infinite numbrer, the odds become a certainty. But this is moot because we're still only talking about an extraordinarily improbable task for monkeys....right? Life (via abiogenesis) could be far more likely than that.
This would only prove that a system comprising a small number of thrown bricks in a single trial won't exhibit the emergent property of tract housing. To expect that would be as silly as expecting to observe Boyle's Law with an single gas molecule, or macro-economics on Gilligan's Island. Observation of emergent properties in a complex system requires a statistically significant number of elements, sufficient time, & some interaction between the elements.
If there are innumerable universes, each with different physical laws & contents, it might be that only 1 in 1 gazillion would be of the Goldilocks (ie, conditions are just right) configuration. Now, if we divide "innumerable" by "1 gazillion", we have a quotient which is still infinity. So these Goldilocks universes would be where life (like ours) would arise, & the inhabitants would be wondering about how lucky they are. This is called the "anthropic principal", ie, every life form is individually unlikely in its own universe, but nonetheless exists to ponder this question.
I don't see that probability as amenable to calculation. What assumptions would one make? If the supreme intelligence were to exist, what are the odds against making this universe exactly as it is?
Where does this energy come from? I don't know. I speculate that our universe is just a teensy weensy (sorry for the technical jargon) part of a much larger & more complex physical reality. I see no need to invoke godly intelligence, saviors, angels, lakes of fire, virgin births, or Pearly Gates.
Spiritual discernment has nothing to do with intelligence, so yours is intact sir
Accept that the chances of that happening are so small that it is statistically improbable
as anyone demonstrated that it could through random processes? I think not. The common sense answer to complexity is that intelligence is involved.... unless there is evidence to the contrary. Your views are perhaps somewhat stuck in an older age of thought.
It may not be as we understand the word, but it is still the best answer....and, considering that we are created in the Image of God, is reflected therefore in us..... we think, and then create. The difference is that we are physical so the two acts are separate; our thoughts become something physical, which in essence has happened many times before, but not as we would think of physical.
You need it as an explanation for this universe, period. Then you explain where and what that is. The get out clause of atheists seems to be that it just adds a further problem, so let's ignore it. Won't do. What happens here as happened before, within the same complexity. Eventually we would get through higher-time until we see the Source of everything. That essence is simple, not complex.
Yes it does!
We can imagine some other things which could blind the mind:
Only if you accept the assumption that the laws of probability will be the same in all universes.
Infinity does make the odds more likely unless, as stated above, you accept the laws of probability in all universes. Conveiniently it seems you do. And this is accepting that all the universe are different. This you also do.... but interestingly you don't accept that there is a God... haha
The point is that in this universe, exceptional events like that don't occur. As for any complex occuring, that is the whole point of the OP. It can't happen without intelligence. For it to happen, randomness and chaos must form something that is nonrandom. How does it do that? Your answer seems to be it will with time. But even that is an assumption, with no thought as to why it would even do such a thing in the first place. Why would inamimate matter assemble itself into anything?
''If''...
But one has to question why there is such a law of probablity in the first place. Why not just come up tails all the time? You assume that it would do that, accept it, and move on. Whereas what we really see is intelligence intrinsically within the coin, and the whole event, in order to make the head come up instead of the tail in the first place. Where do these laws come from? Where do these processes come from?
meaning what?
I agree that we are part of something much larger. I have no problem with the multiverse. There is scripture with some faiths which speak of many universes/worlds. They knew that before sceince came up with the theory, just as spiritual people did just the same with evolution ever before Darwin was born.
I agree... but I speak of this subject.
Detected by who? Presumably skeptics. It is surely detected by the believer, for that is why they believe in the first place! haha
I don't know if they are considered as spiritual. Either way, this subject is only understood so far by the none spiritual person. that is the way it is
But why should there be desire in the first place? The moon can be seen as a reflection of the saviour. That said, the saviour had twelve who followed him. There has also been twelve people on the moon. He is the very reason the moon exists in the first place and why twelve people, all men, all the same country, walked on it. Desire is within us because it is part of the divine nature of God and is intrinsically and innately within us. What we do is express them in physical terms, such as wanting to fly to the moon.
There is not "one way". The physical laws which result in the universe we see have a very narrow range, but withing narrow dwells infinite possibility.
This topic has nothing to do with spiritual anything. It’s about science and mathematics.
The chances of any of the almost infinite number of possibilities are statistically improbable. One of them happened though because improbable doesn't mean impossible. It also doesn't matter which one did. A different combination of random factors could have led to an entirely different universe but it'd still be the universe, we just wouldn't exist to speculate on how it came to be (though something else might).
That it could, sure. As far as I'm aware there are various perfectly valid hypotheses regarding the origins of the universe that involve no intelligent influence that have neither been proven nor definitively disproven. We don't know either way but nobody has proven an intelligence is required.
I'd suggest the opposite. My views are "we don't know", which I consider relatively modern. Your views seem to be based on ancient assumptions that there must be magical beings out there as explanations for all the things we don't understand.
This has nothing to do with atheism, it's science. I'm saying there could be some form of universal intelligence while you're saying there must be some form of universal intelligence. I'm not ignoring anything, you're ignoring the fact that introducing the concept of some universal intelligence doesn't actually answer the question of how everything came to be nor is it in any way a required element of any such answer. You're not raising an answer, you're raising additional questions.
