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Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Only if you accept the assumption that the laws of probability will be the same in all universes.
That seems a pretty safe assumption. I also assume that logic will work.
Infinity does make the odds more likely unless, as stated above, you accept the laws of probability in all universes. Conveiniently it seems you do. And this is accepting that all the universe are different. This you also do.... but interestingly you don't accept that there is a God... haha
But neither do I entirely reject a supreme being. This is one possible explanation. But it lacks evidence, explanatory power, & predictive value. So I pare it away as worth pursuing.
The point is that in this universe, exceptional events like that don't occur.
The exceptional event of monkeys writing sonnets in a single universe isn't necessary for a strictly physical universe. So the OP proves nothing relevant to the intelligent creator issue.
As for any complex occuring, that is the whole point of the OP. It can't happen without intelligence. For it to happen, randomness and chaos must form something that is nonrandom. How does it do that?
The mechanism varies with each system. If you study statistical mechanics (thermodynamics & quantum mechanics), you'll see how basic physical laws will cause gas molecules to behave in an orderly fashion. It's an inevitable emergent property of this system. Other systems will have other laws governing them, eg, economics.
Your answer seems to be it will with time. But even that is an assumption, with no thought as to why it would even do such a thing in the first place. Why would inamimate matter assemble itself into anything?
It's like asking.... Why does statistical mechanics make the prediction of Boyle's Law? Tis because the gas molecules have the properties they have, & the physical laws are what they are, & the result is what it must be.
''If''...
But one has to question why there is such a law of probablity in the first place. Why not just come up tails all the time? You assume that it would do that, accept it, and move on. Whereas what we really see is intelligence intrinsically within the coin, and the whole event, in order to make the head come up instead of the tail in the first place. Where do these laws come from? Where do these processes come from?
I only observe what happens, & see that there are physical relationships. To ask why things are as they are, is to ask about something unobservable....so far. People are considering predictions of the multi-verse perspective, & designing experiments to verify them. But to ask the question of "why", & to find no satisfying material answer, does not mean we should leap to the conclusion that "God did it.".
meaning what?
Meaning that a probability argument proves nothing if there are no good quantitative assumptions from which to calculate probability.
I agree that we are part of something much larger. I have no problem with the multiverse. There is scripture with some faiths which speak of many universes/worlds. They knew that before sceince came up with the theory, just as spiritual people did just the same with evolution ever before Darwin was born.
Many modern & accepted ideas are old, & have non-science origins. Ideas are like a broken clock....at times, one will be considered right. Where Darwin made history is that for the first time, he offered a useful explanation (theory) for evolution.
You are still left with -as I see it- the problem of the unlikelihood of this universe forming as it did, or even at all. I find it strange that people can just accept it as it is. I think perhaps the problem is too big for one, and also the other answer is not one they wish to accept.
For things neither provable nor disprovable, everyone will have a personal perspective. Mine is the non-spiritual non-supernatural one.
If this universe is very unlikely because of the fine tuning argument, then other universes that could sustain US are even unlikely... agreed? If so, then this one is indeed very unlikely, as there is no other universe even close to it. Everything in it would be unique. If there are universe very similar to us, but perhaps without life, yet would sustain us, then the odds are worse, as now there are two or more universes that have the right system to sustain life like us. Either this universe sticks out alone or it does not. Either way it is a problem. Ridiculous odds or even more ridiculous odds.
Again, one cannot say the odds are ridiculous if it's not even possible to calculate (or even estimate) them. Probability is such a difficult discipline because people so often get their premises wrong. And as they say, "garbage in...garbage out".
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
But why should there be desire in the first place? The moon can be seen as a reflection of the saviour. That said, the saviour had twelve who followed him. There has also been twelve people on the moon. He is the very reason the moon exists in the first place and why twelve people, all men, all the same country, walked on it. Desire is within us because it is part of the divine nature of God and is intrinsically and innately within us. What we do is express them in physical terms, such as wanting to fly to the moon.
But don't make the mistake of thinking people believe just because they feel good.
Let's not get sidetracked on why desire exists. We'll simply presume that it does. It will vary among individuals in extent & effect upon thinking. I'm not saying that it's rigidly deterministic with respect to believers...only that it can influence (blind) one's (anyone's) mind.
So when some say that we heathens are spiritually blind to the truth, be aware that the spiritually gifted could be blinded by their perspective too. Tis a universal condition of humans that our perception of reality is flawed in one way or another.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
It would be quite laughable to think it was ''accidental'' that is the point of the fine tuning argument. Intelligence is demanded for such an event. We would certainly demand it in anything we see here in our world. Why is it that we can accept that it is not needed for bigger things?


It's interesting that atheists accept a very low threshold for 'evidence of intelligence' when it comes to belief in aliens, a simple meaningless mathematical sequence drifting across the galaxy would demand intelligence, and be enthusiastically hailed as evidence that 'humans are not special'. 'fluke' would be considered technically possible, but highly unlikely.

Yet a very long list of intricate mathematical equations in the universal constants, which we can decipher as specific instructions for building space/time, giant fusion reactors - to produce more complex elements to support life... can safely be assumed to have blundered into existence for no particular reason...

a tiny bit of a double standard?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
...can safely be assumed to have blundered into existence for no particular reason?!

Why not make that assumption? Why do we have to invent a reason for everything? It's like ancient peoples trying to find reasons for really bad weather - but we know now it's just what the weather does.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Then how does the universe order?
I can't answer that. I just don't know.

But if I were to pretend I did know, and I was to have a go it'd be something like,

The universe is a single messy system. Space, time and spacetime are not properties of the system but part of the perception of it. The perceiving is done in our minds by things that look like brains (that's the order I would use) by integrating information acquired by things that look like sense organs. Said information is categorised, and distinguished, and chopped up into bits that give rise to Order. Something like that.

I'm an atheist, and this kind of thinking is borderline philosophical idealism (crudely expressed) which confuses me no end since it suggests some kind of all pervasive mind or God. It could also be mumbo-jumbo. I'm not sure yet.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It's interesting that atheists accept a very low threshold for 'evidence of intelligence' when it comes to belief in aliens, a simple meaningless mathematical sequence drifting across the galaxy would demand intelligence, and be enthusiastically hailed as evidence that 'humans are not special'. 'fluke' would be considered technically possible, but highly unlikely.

Yet a very long list of intricate mathematical equations in the universal constants, which we can decipher as specific instructions for building space/time, giant fusion reactors - to produce more complex elements to support life... can safely be assumed to have blundered into existence for no particular reason...

a tiny bit of a double standard?
Which atheists are actually doing this? I haven't seen any aliens yet.
But even if some were, we're not all perfect, you know. So finding fault with one doesn't make the probabilistic argument for a supreme intelligent creator any more convincing.

Btw, a "mighty pirate" shouldn't look so pixelated.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Why not make that assumption? Why do we have to invent a reason for everything? It's like ancient peoples trying to find reasons for really bad weather - but we know now it's just what the weather does.

ancient peoples? many people still blame bad weather on our behavior, it's literally the oldest superstition known to mankind- and there has always been those eager to accept sacrifices to appease the weather Gods

but I think we agree on this one, it's just weather. Personally I do believe the entire dynamic system was designed as such- Variability, contrasts, unpredictability, all great challenges for humanity to face and conquer.- without which we wouldn't be here pondering all this.

or.. again yet another coincidence to rack up.. at some point the dice look loaded to me.


I'm pixelated because I am a very old computer game character, and I'm a little sensitive about it if you don't mind!
 
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Koldo

Outstanding Member
Then how does the universe order?

Pick up a lot of small objects. Throw them up in the air and let them fall on the ground. If you look hard enough you will be able to recognize at least one pattern between the objects.

Order explained.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
That seems a pretty safe assumption. I also assume that logic will work.
But why assume that these ideas work, and yet not simply believe a supreme intelligence is behind it all? You can neither see probabilities as you can't see supreme intelligence
But neither do I entirely reject a supreme being.
To me then, in the all inclusive definition of atheism etc, I would call you agnostic. You are too open to be atheist. Lift yourself up Willy, you're do'in fine!
This is one possible explanation. But it lacks evidence, explanatory power, & predictive value. So I pare it away as worth pursuing.
But a believer is evidence, living evidence. You are askign for a physical appearance of something which is not physical, so not a sound argument. It is always the failing of a purly materialistic mindset, like Dawkins.
The exceptional event of monkeys writing sonnets in a single universe isn't necessary for a strictly physical universe. So the OP proves nothing relevant to the intelligent creator issue.
It think it does. If monkeys cannot type a sonnet or book or whatever given enough time, why should we think that more complicated and bigger events should come about with time... the very thing which leads to the monkeys in the first place.
The mechanism varies with each system. If you study statistical mechanics (thermodynamics & quantum mechanics), you'll see how basic physical laws will cause gas molecules to behave in an orderly fashion. It's an inevitable emergent property of this system. Other systems will have other laws governing them, eg, economics.

It's like asking.... Why does statistical mechanics make the prediction of Boyle's Law? Tis because the gas molecules have the properties they have, & the physical laws are what they are, & the result is what it must be.
But that explains nothing. You are merely accepting what you see and leaving it at that. It's like someone leaves a dinner on your doorstep and you don't consider where it comes from, but just eat it. Surely mankind is more inquisitive than that?
I only observe what happens, & see that there are physical relationships. To ask why things are as they are, is to ask about something unobservable....so far. People are considering predictions of the multi-verse perspective, & designing experiments to verify them. But to ask the question of "why", & to find no satisfying material answer, does not mean we should leap to the conclusion that "God did it.".
But if not supreme-intelligence, then what? Luck? You see the problem. All these processes that are mentioned, some by you, all have to come about some way from something which is completely random. This is not realistic. Chaos is chaos is chaos. Why should it organise?
Meaning that a probability argument proves nothing if there are no good quantitative assumptions from which to calculate probability.
These are clever men than I that have worked these odds out.
Many modern & accepted ideas are old, & have non-science origins. Ideas are like a broken clock....at times, one will be considered right. Where Darwin made history is that for the first time, he offered a useful explanation (theory) for evolution.
But he only gave a physical mechanism for it. There is no reason as to ''why'' these processes would even exist or work in the first place. Explaining to me how a wall is built does nothing except that, it does not mean no one built it.
For things neither provable nor disprovable, everyone will have a personal perspective. Mine is the non-spiritual non-supernatural one.
so luck.... and that to me is the problem. Intelligence is the more obvious answer. You don't agree?
Again, one cannot say the odds are ridiculous if it's not even possible to calculate (or even estimate) them. Probability is such a difficult discipline because people so often get their premises wrong. And as they say, "garbage in...garbage out".

Then what of these two quotes from the same original source:

~~
Hoyle sums up his findings as follows:
A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintendent has monkeyed with the physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the consequences they produce within stars.

Adds Dr. David D. Deutch: If anyone claims not to be surprised by the special features that the universe has, he is hiding his head in the sand. These special features ARE surprising and unlikely.
~~
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
It's interesting that atheists accept a very low threshold for 'evidence of intelligence' when it comes to belief in aliens, a simple meaningless mathematical sequence drifting across the galaxy would demand intelligence, and be enthusiastically hailed as evidence that 'humans are not special'. 'fluke' would be considered technically possible, but highly unlikely.

Yet a very long list of intricate mathematical equations in the universal constants, which we can decipher as specific instructions for building space/time, giant fusion reactors - to produce more complex elements to support life... can safely be assumed to have blundered into existence for no particular reason...

a tiny bit of a double standard?

Haha... ''blundered'' I like. It is amazing I think, that the bigger the odds get, the bigger the problem, the more likely it is just to 'happen' in some way.... I find it mind boggling.... haha, but that's just me.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Why not make that assumption? Why do we have to invent a reason for everything? It's like ancient peoples trying to find reasons for really bad weather - but we know now it's just what the weather does.
So we found a reason then.. haha
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I can't answer that. I just don't know.

But if I were to pretend I did know, and I was to have a go it'd be something like,

The universe is a single messy system. Space, time and spacetime are not properties of the system but part of the perception of it. The perceiving is done in our minds by things that look like brains (that's the order I would use) by integrating information acquired by things that look like sense organs. Said information is categorised, and distinguished, and chopped up into bits that give rise to Order. Something like that.
Okay, don't really have a problem with that.
I'm an atheist, and this kind of thinking is borderline philosophical idealism (crudely expressed) which confuses me no end since it suggests some kind of all pervasive mind or God. It could also be mumbo-jumbo. I'm not sure yet.
Haha... okay. It is interesting how it might suggest such a thing though, eh? My answer is that everything is evolving-conscious from a supreme-intelligence, you, me, the universe. It is an expression of the divine (after some considerable time and misinterpretation that is.)

The point of having supreme-intelligent inherent in everything, is that it makes sense how the universe could assemble itself, and how evolution could seem to have all the answers. It makes sense. It makes sense why there are believers. It makes sense why we can understand so much of the universe. It makes sense why there is conviently coal and oil and gas etc waiting to be exploited by us. The answer works. And answers that work well are generally right.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
ancient peoples? many people still blame bad weather on our behavior, it's literally the oldest superstition known to mankind- and there has always been those eager to accept sacrifices to appease the weather Gods

but I think we agree on this one, it's just weather. Personally I do believe the entire dynamic system was designed as such- Variability, contrasts, unpredictability, all great challenges for humanity to face and conquer.- without which we wouldn't be here pondering all this.

or.. again yet another coincidence to rack up.. at some point the dice look loaded to me.


I'm pixelated because I am a very old computer game character, and I'm a little sensitive about it if you don't mind!
Every heard of the phrase ''Under the weather'' for someone who is ill or a little off colour? Apparently there is good evidence to show that it can affect us now. It appears to me that we are part of the whole, not just 'in' the whole. There are studies in Russia where certain weather patterns and the fullness of the moon actually affect wars, suicides etc.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Pick up a lot of small objects. Throw them up in the air and let them fall on the ground. If you look hard enough you will be able to recognize at least one pattern between the objects.

Order explained.
The reason they order is not explained. Chaos can form patterns, but why? Even dealing cards can form patterns. But why? If it is inherent and intrinsic to the universe, it is explained
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Pick up a lot of small objects. Throw them up in the air and let them fall on the ground. If you look hard enough you will be able to recognize at least one pattern between the objects.

Order explained.
Haha... ''blundered'' I like. It is amazing I think, that the bigger the odds get, the bigger the problem, the more likely it is just to 'happen' in some way.... I find it mind boggling.... haha, but that's just me.

yes, a common rationale is, that 'lots of things in nature are automated, so why would the origins of the universe be any different?' and I understand that- it's the way I used to look at it too

but as you say- the problem gets bigger, not smaller. an automated watch factory is even further from being self explanatory than the watch.

In the end- the laws of nature being ultimately accounted for by.. those very same laws... is a paradox unique to atheism, which can be solved if we do not utterly forbid the possibility of creative intelligence
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
But why assume that these ideas work, and yet not simply believe a supreme intelligence is behind it all? You can neither see probabilities as you can't see supreme intelligence
Just looking at our universe, there's much evidence for probability, mathematics, & logic being real & useful....& they work for people of all faiths or lack thereof. This god stuff though...instead of evidence it has only feelings of believers. And all of them have different feelings, eg, variation on the number of gods, variation on afterlife, variation on their god's power.
To me then, in the all inclusive definition of atheism etc, I would call you agnostic. You are too open to be atheist. Lift yourself up Willy, you're do'in fine!
I am both an agnostic & an atheist. The former is the rigorous view, while the latter is speculative. You might call my atheism a mere "feeling". Good call....I agree, & that's why I don't trust it.
But a believer is evidence, living evidence. You are askign for a physical appearance of something which is not physical, so not a sound argument. It is always the failing of a purly materialistic mindset, like Dawkins.
I don't see the existence of believers as evidence of what they beieve.
It think it does. If monkeys cannot type a sonnet or book or whatever given enough time, why should we think that more complicated and bigger events should come about with time... the very thing which leads to the monkeys in the first place.
Since we don't know the probability of either, there's no comparison to make.
But that explains nothing. You are merely accepting what you see and leaving it at that. It's like someone leaves a dinner on your doorstep and you don't consider where it comes from, but just eat it. Surely mankind is more inquisitive than that?
To be inquisitive is fine. But if one has a great desire (or need) for an answer, one might leap to & embrace a dysfunctional one. Pons & Fleischmann (the cold fusion guys) know about the perils of trying to make a bad theory fit the data.
But if not supreme-intelligence, then what? Luck? You see the problem. All these processes that are mentioned, some by you, all have to come about some way from something which is completely random. This is not realistic. Chaos is chaos is chaos. Why should it organise?
Wouldn't the luck ("too good to be true") argument apply to a god too? What are the odds against our having this benevolent designer creating this commodious & wonderful universe for us? Again, the probabilistic argument just has no merit so long as we've no comprehensive set of quantitative premises from which to reason.
These are clever men than I that have worked these odds out.
No doubt smart guys with giant chess club sized brains have attacked the problem. But no one has ever presented a quantitative argument which doesn't fall apart upon closer examination.
But he only gave a physical mechanism for it. There is no reason as to ''why'' these processes would even exist or work in the first place.
No matter how much we learn, there is always the question of "why" regarding some deeper cause. This cycle of questioning can never end. To not know is to be our perpetual state. This does not mean that "God did it.".
Explaining to me how a wall is built does nothing except that, it does not mean no one built it.
We have a thorough understanding of walls & how they come about. The cosmology of multiple universes is far less understood. A better analogy for you would be evolution, which has a powerful theory explaining its emergence from life.
so luck.... and that to me is the problem. Intelligence is the more obvious answer. You don't agree?
No. Seeing no evidence of this supernatural intelligence, I disbelieve in it. But seeing much evidence of self organization of elements in the natural world, I'll go with that.
Then what of these two quotes from the same original source:
~~
Luminaries in the world of science aren't correct just because they're popular. When their reasoning is sound, then they deserve credence. But when they give opinions without an evidenced cogent argument, then their opinions are no better than yours or mine. Remember, we heathens have no prophets to deliver truth unto us.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Haha... okay. It is interesting how it might suggest such a thing though, eh? My answer is that everything is evolving-conscious from a supreme-intelligence, you, me, the universe. It is an expression of the divine (after some considerable time and misinterpretation that is.)

The point of having supreme-intelligent inherent in everything, is that it makes sense how the universe could assemble itself, and how evolution could seem to have all the answers. It makes sense. It makes sense why there are believers. It makes sense why we can understand so much of the universe. It makes sense why there is conviently coal and oil and gas etc waiting to be exploited by us. The answer works. And answers that work well are generally right.
That's definitely an attractive idea. But could it be explained by monkeys on typewriters? :)
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Every heard of the phrase ''Under the weather'' for someone who is ill or a little off colour? Apparently there is good evidence to show that it can affect us now. It appears to me that we are part of the whole, not just 'in' the whole. There are studies in Russia where certain weather patterns and the fullness of the moon actually affect wars, suicides etc.

Yes, the moon is one of those many aspects of nature that was once considered somewhat.. surplus, extranenous?- there's a better word- but we had no idea how fundamental, crucial it was to life on Earth in so many ways.

this isn't the cheeriest time of year for most of us in the Northern Hemisphere, I think not just because of the light, but that we withdraw even more from nature? Moving from a large city to the country was something that got me thinking more about creation, being able to see the stars/ milky way.

It would be interesting to know if peoples beliefs show any drift from season to season...
 
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