Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[godnotgod]

There simply is not one shred of objective evidence that suggests consciousness can be the domain of anything other than an organism, so I simply cannot buy into any consciousness outside of it. If such a consciousness were to exist, it would seem to me that there would be objective support, but there's simply none.

Fine, but if consciousness is a localized phenomenon, then it must have a barrier between the brain and the non-brain environment, that barrier essentially being the cranium. So how can the material cranium contain non-material consciousness? And secondly, how does the material brain create non-material consciousness?

 

[godnotgod]

Facts must be seen but spirit can't be seen. It seems to me there can't exist facts about spirit. Thought apart from a physical domain is spirit. Thought is words. Words can exist outside of structure. Can't they?

I get the gist of what you're saying, and agree, but with one caveat: I would change 'thought' and 'words' to 'consciousness', which is prior to both thought and words. But yes, spirit is transcendent of fact, so it must be accessed via an approach other than Reason.

 

[metis]

Facts must be seen but spirit can't be seen. It seems to me there can't exist facts about spirit. Thought apart from a physical domain is spirit. Thought is words. Words can exist outside of structure. Can't they?

But even words have a basis in fact, thus dictionaries, and thoughts can be at least somewhat detected on e.e.g.'s and m.r.i.'s. As far as I know, no objective evidence yet exists for spirits. Again, maybe they exist, but then maybe they don't.

 

[metis]

Fine, but if consciousness is a localized phenomenon, then it must have a barrier between the brain and the non-brain environment, that barrier essentially being the cranium. So how can the material cranium contain non-material consciousness? And secondly, how does the material brain create non-material consciousness?

But consciousness is material in that it consists of energy in a patterned motion, which is why it can be detected.

 

[godnotgod]

But consciousness is material in that it consists of energy in a patterned motion, which is why it can be detected.

What's being detected is brain wave activity, correct?

 

[metis]

What's being detected is brain wave activity, correct?

Correct, which is energy that's actually similar to electrical energy. The function of our brain isn't much dissimilar to that of a battery.

 

[godnotgod]

Correct, which is energy that's actually similar to electrical energy. The function of our brain isn't much dissimilar to that of a battery.

I realize that, but measuring brain wave activity is not measuring consciousness. Science doesn't even know what consciousness is.

So can you tell me how the material cranium 'contains' non-material consciousness, and how the material brain creates the non-material? Energy is non-material.

 

[godnotgod]

'As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.'

MAX PLANCK, Upon accepting the Nobel Prize

 

[Looncall]

I realize that, but measuring brain wave activity is not measuring consciousness. Science doesn't even know what consciousness is.

So can you tell me how the material cranium 'contains' non-material consciousness, and how the material brain creates the non-material? Energy is non-material.

Just as a program runs in a` computer.

I would very much like to know why the religious are so unable to deal with the idea of a process and consistently reify processes as substances.

Further, energy is not a substance.

 

[Looncall]

'As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.'

MAX PLANCK, Upon accepting the Nobel Prize

So you are a name dropper. So what? There are plenty of examples of scientists who were nutcases on some topics. It is evidence that counts. Argument from authority is a fallacy.

 

[savagewind]

Evidence is different things to different people. A royal flush is the highest hand in poker. How often does it get dealt? On the way home from a trip I stopped at a resturant to get a cup of soup. I sat at the bar and had a beer too. For something to do I read the game cards of questions. The only question I could answer right was "what is the highest poker hand possible?". It's a royal flush. Actually it's a royal flush in spades. When I got home I found out my son had won the poker game (they don't play with real money - but he got $20.00 for winning). With what did he win it? A royal flush in spades.

The character Gibbs on NCIS says there are no coincidences. No? What do you call what happened to me?

 

[savagewind]

Atheists please explain why I should have read a question that I could answer and how that hand was dealt for someone I know, about the same time. What natural thing or things precipitated it? The odds of a royal flush being dealt are what? Now add the odds of stopping at the right place, sitting in the right place and reading the right card. What is it called? Spirit? Haha

 

[savagewind]

Haha Now you have to believe the story. OMG HAHA

It really happened but isn't it much easier to ignore it like it never happened? I am sure.

 

[metis]

I realize that, but measuring brain wave activity is not measuring consciousness. Science doesn't even know what consciousness is.

So can you tell me how the material cranium 'contains' non-material consciousness, and how the material brain creates the non-material? Energy is non-material.

Energy consists of particles that are essentially not different than the energy produced by consciousness, which is why when a person is brain-dead these waves stop. These same particles found in energy are also pretty much the same as found in matter (what you have called "material").

 

[Looncall]

Energy consists of particles that are essentially not different than the energy produced by consciousness, which is why when a person is brain-dead these waves stop. These same particles found in energy are also pretty much the same as found in matter (what you have called "material").

Energy does not "consist" of anything. It is just a shorthand for states of objects. For example, if an apple is hanging from a branch, we say that it has potential energy.What we mean is that air and the ground will be changed if it falls.

New age balderdash and frauds such as feng shui have much to answer for.

 

[metis]

Energy does not "consist" of anything. It is just a shorthand for states of objects. For example, if an apple is hanging from a branch, we say that it has potential energy.What we mean is that air and the ground will be changed if it falls.

New age balderdash and frauds such as feng shui have much to answer for.

Energy consists of sub-atomic particles in motion, and objects are also made of many of these same particles. "Potential energy" is only what the energy could be if it manifests itself in a given way.

What's "new age" and "feng shui" have to do with this? I certainly don't adhere to either and, as a matter of fact, I've never read a single book on either subject.

 

[apophenia]

There simply is not one shred of objective evidence that suggests consciousness can be the domain of anything other than an organism, so I simply cannot buy into any consciousness outside of it. If such a consciousness were to exist, it would seem to me that there would be objective support, but there's simply none.

If it were true, what evidence would there be ?

Facts must be seen but spirit can't be seen. It seems to me there can't exist facts about spirit. Thought apart from a physical domain is spirit. Thought is words. Words can exist outside of structure. Can't they?

Words are structure.

 

[savagewind]

If it were true, what evidence would there be ?



Words are structure.

Words are structures of letters. What happens to the letters as they fly through the air between phones?

 

[apophenia]

Energy does not "consist" of anything. It is just a shorthand for states of objects. For example, if an apple is hanging from a branch, we say that it has potential energy

I agree with "Energy does not "consist" of anything."

Its like talking about what space consists of.

We have descriptions of changing relationships.

New age balderdash and frauds such as feng shui have much to answer for.

Feng is OK. He works hard to support the Shui family. Give him a break.

 

[apophenia]

Words are structures of letters. What happens to the letters as they fly through the air between phones?

It depends on the service, and whether they are in business class or economy