Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[savagewind]

Well from a Buddhist point of view conceiving about the world is certainly an obstacle to seeing it as it really is. But look at all the conceiving that is going on in this thread! Look at how attached people are to their views, beliefs and assumptions, whether it be "cosmic consciousness" or "God" or the "divine". Look at all the intellectual baggage that goes with such ideas!

Well yes. But how else are we able to share it?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Three kinds I see.

I think the world should be as it is (or will be)
I don't care what the world should be.
I see the world as it is.

Which one is most like a baby?

I guess the last one! Did I win a prize, hey, hey, hey? Tell me, what did I win?

 

[godnotgod]

Well, for one thing Zen is the most non-mystical Buddhist school. I could go, but I haven't the time or energy to try and sort out somebody else's muddle and misconceptions.
If you seriously want to understand Zen they the way to do it is to go and practice seriously with a Zen school for a couple of years. What we don't need is somebody regurgitating Zen cliches out of context in order to sound clever ( leaving aside the fact that there is no obvious connection to the idea of a cosmic consciousness thingy ).

Completely incorrect.

"Zen is the mystical branch of Mahayana Buddhism. As the Sufis stand to Islam, as the Cabalists stand to Judaism, as the Yogis stand to Hinduism and the Contemplatives to Christianity, so does Zen stand to Buddhism. And as such it is singularly non-congregational."

What Is Zen Buddhism? Part I - Christianity and Zen, by Rev. Ming Zhen Shakya

Maybe you fail to understand what mystical means. It simply means divine union within. That is the essence of Zen and other mystical practices, as the above quote states. It does NOT mean some drug induced hippie new age twisted off the wall thingy.

I already explained the meaning of the koan about potato peeling to you, and still you persist in your recalcitrant ignorance to make statements to the contrary, completely ignoring what I've said, and labeling it as out of context and off base, and all because you simply don't understand what's going on here, while being glued to some old paradigm about reality.

How can you make a statement re: 'understanding Zen' when you fail to understand even your own Buddhism?

 

[savagewind]

I guess the last one! Did I win a prize, hey, hey, hey? Tell me, what did I win?

I suppose it was a laugh, a giggle or a smile. Which one was it?

 

[godnotgod]

Please just tell us, these riddles are tiresome and pointless.

They seem that way to someone who has not done enough internal work to develop their intuitive mind, which is the kind of insight required to cut to the heart of the matter. I think you feel comfortable with safe Theravada doctrine, rather than the living truth, and that is why you want the 'riddles' to stop. They confound your conditioned mentality.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Well from a Buddhist point of view conceiving about the world is certainly an obstacle to seeing it as it really is - though there is a world of difference between saying it and realising it.
But look at all the conceiving that is going on in this thread! Look at how attached people are to their views, beliefs and assumptions, whether it be "cosmic consciousness" or "God" or the "divine". Look at all the intellectual baggage that goes with such ideas!

I know, it's great isn't it!

 

[Robert.Evans]

I suppose it was a laugh, a giggle or a smile. Which one was it?

Hmmm..... i will guess at the ...not wait, hmm.... I will plump for the giggle!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

How can you make a statement re: 'understanding Zen' when you fail to understand even your own Buddhism?

You obviously have scant knowledge of Zen, so have a read of this. Zen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually Zen is most accurately described as a meditative tradition. If you investigate the origin of the word "Zen" this should become obvious.

 

[godnotgod]

I suppose it was a laugh, a giggle or a smile. Which one was it?

Speaking of giggles, can you tell me how it is that a baby instinctively knows the game of Peek A Boo, a variant of Hide and Seek, without ever having been taught?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Not just that, but a child's mind is not conditioned yet by society in passing moral judgments via discrimination. It does not split reality into a duality of good and evil. Krishnamurti calls this mind 'innocency', a state we slowly lose touch with as we become socially indoctrinated by religion, government, parents, etc. Buddha calls it 'Original Mind', and Taoism 'The Uncarved Block'.

Yet there must be, in a form, a split, a duality. If not, then how is there a Good God? There has to be evil, an, Evil God, to balance out the Good. How else do we see these things we see? They come from us and not Him? How?

 

[savagewind]

Speaking of giggles, can you tell me how it is that a baby instinctively knows the game of Peek A Boo, a variant of Hide and Seek, without ever having been taught?

I don't know. Why is it funny? Only a baby knows for sure. LOL

 

[savagewind]

Although I imagine if a friend played it with me I might not laugh but eventually I'd crack a smile for sure.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think you feel comfortable with safe Theravada doctrine, rather than the living truth, and that is why you want the 'riddles' to stop.

Another ridiculous statement which further confirms your complete lack of understanding of Buddhist schools. Just for information I've practised with all the main Buddhist schools and have been exploring Buddhism since 1980. That doesn't make me an expert but I do know enough to see through your shallow and cliched misrepresentations.

 

[godnotgod]

You obviously have scant knowledge of Zen, so have a read of this. Zen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually Zen is most accurately described as a meditative tradition. If you investigate the origin of the word "Zen" this should become obvious.

I already am quite aware of that, but if you look at the link I provided, you will see that the statement made about Zen being the mystical branch of Mahayana Buddhism was made by an ordained Zen minister:

About Venerable Ming Zhen Shakya

Venerable Ming Zhen Shakya (formerly Chuan Yuan Shakya) was ordained in the Peoples Republic of China at Nan Hua Si, the Monastery of Hui Neng (Eno), the Sixth Patriarch of Chan Buddhism, and was the first American to be ordained in Mainland China in more than a quarter century of Communist rule. She was founder of the Nan Hua Zen Buddhist Society and serves on the Board of Directors of the Zen Buddhist Order of Hsu Yun.


FYI, meditation is the mystics vehicle for the attainment of inner divine union, which is mysticism in a nutshell. So stop, already, before both feet are found in the mouth.

I explained the meaning of the potato peeling koan to you. Did you understand it or not?

 

[Robert.Evans]

I think for Consciousness to work within everything, there has to be separation. Without it, how is one thing clean from something which is not clean. Now in an even deeper level, I can say that it is all One and all connected. But on a lesser level, it has to be separate. The proof of that is everything we see around us- which is also separate.

 

[savagewind]

Hmmm..... i will guess at the ...not wait, hmm.... I will plump for the giggle!

I will go off topic for plump. Do you need a pillow for a giggle? WOW! Look how they shouldn't rhyme but they do. Don't they?

 

[godnotgod]

Another ridiculous statement which further confirms your complete lack of understanding of Buddhist schools. Just for information I've practised with all the main Buddhist schools and have been exploring Buddhism since 1980. That doesn't make me an expert but I do know enough to see through your shallow and cliched misrepresentations.

Well, then, if that is true, why do you want the riddles to stop? You should welcome them in the spirit of Rinzai Zen. Is the Zen riddle shallow and cliche, or is it you?

Guess what? I don't care how long you've studied Buddhism. None of that matters one iota when it comes to realization. Why would you even mention it? That would only matter to someone who has a shallow understanding of his study. It serves no purpose other than an egotistic one to prance about and waving it around to show everyone how clever you are to mask the fact that you don't know what you're talking about, evinced by the fact that I have now clearly proven you wrong about several things. So stop already.

 

[savagewind]

The study of something which already exists is putting a screen in front of your vision. Of course it is respectable to know things but to weave all those things into your vision is vanity.

An unfettered view is related to baptism.

 

[godnotgod]

I think for Consciousness to work within everything, there has to be separation. Without it, how is one thing clean from something which is not clean. Now in an even deeper level, I can say that it is all One and all connected. But on a lesser level, it has to be separate. The proof of that is everything we see around us- which is also separate.

Consciousness is seeing without discrimination; Mind discriminates, creating the dualistic split.

 

[godnotgod]

The biggest problem in current physics is trying to figure out what the fundamental differnece is between the laws of the universe that govern the very large, the very small and the middle. Why they are different and if there can be a unified field theory or "the theory of everything". I think legion said it once best, all theories are wrong. Nothing is perfect in terms of matching because it is just a model. But that also makes it interesting. It doesn't make in meaningless gibberish but does show that we have more to learn. The equations only function in their range which suggests that there is a curve to the laws of physics.

But the results of the equations are nonsense, as Kaku points out. The math fails.

Then no I don't believe it is "required". At least not by any evidence presented so far.

What I'm trying to get at is that there are not two things, one called 'intelligence' and the other 'universe'. They are, in fact, one and the same, as expressed by Vivekenanda:

'The Universe IS the Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

whatever you say.

Is it a belief of yours that you are conscious, or is it self-evident?