Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[savagewind]

True enough, sorry about the clumsy phrasing.

Let's try: Does gravity require intelligence so that things fall in the proper direction?

Maybe you mean do items know they should fall. Yes because gravity dictates they will. So your question might be is gravity aware it is a dictator?

 

[savagewind]

Here's one for you. Are people aware their questions are nonsense?

 

[savagewind]

I have another pair. There is a sign right now on my screen which advertises "Learn and Master Sign Language". I was at the thrift store today arguing with myself if I should buy the three dollar sign language book. I decided not to because when I am good and ready to learn it I can get it on the internet. Viola! Now show me your worthless hand so Cosmic can have a good laugh.

 

[Thief]

heh...heh...Who is it that can't take it anymore?

Perhaps sweeping the floor might do the trick.

and Who then is sweeping the floor?!

The LORD!
and He shall sweep and garnish His floor!

so it is written.

 

[godnotgod]

True enough, sorry about the clumsy phrasing.

Let's try: Does gravity require intelligence so that things fall in the proper direction?

That's not what I was saying. I was saying there is no agent of gravitation; no 'gravitator' of gravity. There is only a force we call 'gravity'. That there is intelligence behind that force, or if that force itself is a form of intelligence, is another question.

 

[godnotgod]

and Who then is sweeping the floor?!

The LORD!
and He shall sweep and garnish His floor!

so it is written.

Yes, I'd like Greek Goddess dressing and a little garnish with that. A floor so clean, I can eat my salad on it. In fact, I'd say that floor is Immaculate!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You imply that you're enlightened, so that shouldn't be a problem for you.

No, you are the one who keeps hinting at some superior knowledge. The fact that you project this arrogance out on to others is more revealing than you know.
If you would apply a little mindfulness to your own thought process you might begin to see this more clearly.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What kind of activity is peeling the potatoes?

Please, no more of these patronising questions. If you have something useful to say just come out with it, and quit the pretentious posturing. You have no idea how boring it is.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I can only speak for me when I say it is understanding. Everything is understood in the mind, even experience. It all comes from the Divine. A capital 'C' is just to define it as Divine.

It occurred to me that what you've been talking about sounds very much like Brahman. So maybe you're really a Hindu.

 

[godnotgod]

No, you are the one who keeps hinting at some superior knowledge. The fact that you project this arrogance out on to others is more revealing than you know.
If you would apply a little mindfulness to your own thought process you might begin to see this more clearly.

Well, let us see what you said:

"But honestly I don't think you have any real idea of what the Buddhist scriptures are about, or what enlightenment is, any of it."

So by saying that, you imply you are enlightened, while I am not. Therefore, knowing what kind of activity peeling the potatoes is should be a no brainer for you.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

"But honestly I don't think you have any real idea of what the Buddhist scriptures are about, or what enlightenment is, any of it."
So by saying that, you imply you are enlightened, while I am not.

Not at all. It means exactly what it says, and I think it's an accurate observation.

 

[godnotgod]

Please, no more of these patronising questions. If you have something useful to say just come out with it, and quit the pretentious posturing. You have no idea how boring it is.

Look here: you are the one who kept asking me what the experience is like. I provided an answer, which is not the answer you wanted to hear, which was:

'The spirituality found in Zen is not to think about God while peeling the potatoes; it is simply to peel the potatoes'

I am not playing a game with you. I have provided an answer that you can use directly as an answer to your question. But the intuitive mind must be opened up in order for you to see what this is saying. Now, I have given you a clue to help you, which asks: 'What kind of activity is peeling the potatoes?' I know you think the whole question is nonsense, but I am dead serious. The Zen statement is far more profound than you may think.

Now I know that Theravada is an orthodox system, but all orthodoxy is based on original mystical experience, which is what the Buddha experienced. Zen is the mystical branch of orthodox Buddhism, so it is a return to the source of the original experience.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Zen is the mystical branch of orthodox Buddhism, so it is a return to the source of the original experience.

Statements like this confirm my view that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[godnotgod]

Not at all. It means exactly what it says, and I think it's an accurate observation.

Do you know what simple logic is? By saying that I don't know what enlightenment is, you imply that you do. Otherwise, how would you know that I am unenlightened?

But, you see, you are assuming much too much here. Instead of making a judgment call, you should try to understand what the nature of peeling potatoes is. I am certain that you know, but for some reason, you are becoming unglued over a simple statement. All I'm trying to do is to help you with an answer to your original question. If you don't want to know, OK. But don't go away thinking I am playing with your mind. There is a very good reason why I responded as I did.

 

[godnotgod]

Statements like this confirm my view that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. If you are going to refute my statement, then provide an explanation as to what is erroneous about it.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

All I'm trying to do is to help you with an answer to your original question.

You clearly have no idea how patronising you sound with statements like this.

The best advice I can give you is to practice mindfulness, develop some basic self-awareness, put your ego on the back burner for a while. Open your mind.

 

[godnotgod]

You clearly have no idea how patronising you sound with statements like this.

The best advice I can give you is to practice mindfulness, develop some basic self-awareness, put your ego on the back burner for a while. Open your mind.

You wanted an answer to your question, but when I provide an answer, you take it as personal insult. That, sir, is none other than YOUR ego working overtime.

You are being extremely difficult, so I am going to assume at this time that you simply don't have an intuitive handle on the answer I provided. That's OK, and so I will have to go ahead and provide an explanation, not so much for your benefit, but for others who happen to be reading this thread:

Peeling the potatoes, washing the dishes, sweeping the floor are all ordinary, everyday activities. The Zen view is that the ordinary world and the miraculous are one and the same, just as I explained and proved about what the Buddha said about Self and the universe being one and the same previously. IOW, Reality is not comprised of 'this world' and 'that world', because there is, in reality, only one world. So in keeping with the Buddha, who said that Buddha Mind is none other than Ordinary Mind, peeling the potatoes is none other than the miraculous, also reflected in the following Zen statement:

'Chop wood;
Carry water;
How miraculous!'

and:

'Before Enlightenment, sweeping the floor;
After Enlightenment, sweeping the floor'

*****end of discussion*****

 

[godnotgod]

There is a sense that your awareness encapsulates all of reality, but upon repeated exposure to this form of consciousness one begins to realize that this is merely a preliminary perception and arise from the inherent contrasts with ordinary waking consciousness. You may feel you are "one" with the universe, but you can't actually describe the life conditions on a small asteroid in Zeta Reticuli , so you are not genuinely aware of everything or in fact "one" with everything. THAT is just a perception and is a local phenomena projected onto the universe, but simply put, relative ONLY to the individual psyche. It is the multidimensional nature of the psyche that creates the illusion of being all inclusive.

Perhaps, as it is a filter through which you are experiencing the Infinite. But where you are in error is that being one with the universe does not mean you know all the details of the universe in all places. That is still your filter interpreting the experience, because it is used to focusing on the foreground of life, which is the phenomenal world of forms. Being at one with the universe simply means that your true nature is exactly the same as the nature of the universe. IOW, the nature of Reality is the same everywhere. What is true of it internally to you, is also true of everywhere externally in the universe, which obliterates the boundaries between 'inside' and 'outside'. That is Cosmic Consciousness.

No, your individual perception does not encapsulate all of Reality; Reality encapsulates your individual perception. In reality, though, what you only think to be your personal consciousness is in actuality a universal consciousness. IOW, your personal view is an illusion. It's merely a conditioned sculpting of non-local consciousness in such a way as to appear to be local and personal. That conditioning is what is known as Identification.

You've experienced a glimpse into the Infinite, but it's only a blip on the radar screen. For some, these experiences are rationalized away as permutations of their personal view, while for others becomes a game changer.

 

[Looncall]

I know that is what you think, but you are guilty of exactly the thing you accuse others of.

First, drop the attacks on the New Age people. Cosmic Consciousness, and Universal Consciousness are NOT new age! OK? What you need to understand is that what you call 'new age' is in general a movement away from the old paradigms (ie authoritarian religion and materialist science) because they fail to provide spiritual nourishment. They are dead systems. Take notice that the 'new' movements are pretty much all feminine/mystically based: Zen, Yoga, New Age, Wicca, Gnositicism, Taoism, Sufism, etc. This is no accident. It is the feminine side of consciousness that opens the door to spiritual nourishment. (Read especially the Tao te Ching to confirm this). The old patriarchal systems are concerned with The Law and Obedience to The Law, but that is not enough to provide happiness. By opening the door to the feminine, the masculine will then flesh out and make sense. By itself, it is a rigid, meaningless skeleton.

Secondly, Cosmic, or Universal Consciousness is none other than the realization that we live in a living, conscious universe. I have already provided two examples from Buddhist thought that unmistakably point to consciousness being the world. It is exactly this realization that people are waking up to, after centuries of it having been suppressed by religious dogma, and now scientific materialism. But just know that the cat is now out of the bag and there is no way it is going back. What is happening is that people are developing a new vision of the universe, in which science and spiritualism are understood as in a unified view. IOW, as Vivekanda has said, they are discovering that:

'The Universe is [none other than] The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

Nah, It's just old twaddle dredged up to fool the gullible. I doubt it was ever anything but a scheme by the mystics to escape the hard work of survival.

 

[Robert.Evans]

. . . . My faith in theists is dwindling. Don't push it

It doesn't bother me my friend..