Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[The Hammer]

I have no problem with searching with sceince to explain the physical world, it is aafter all, good at it. But there is atnedancy now to think that doing that means there is no God, when in fact that is the very thing they are and they talk about.

Again, I am a theist, I don't discount god. I just prefer looking for the scientific reasonings behind the universe. Not the pseudo-religious attempted explanation. I refuse to settle on the "goddidit" answer, when there are other just as rational explanations.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes. Everything is conscious - though don't ask me to explain that in physical terms.

It would be good if you could explain it coherently in any terms. I'm afraid it still just sounds like a belief that you have, a variation on pantheism.
You can say "everything is conscious" as often as you like, but that doesn't make it any more true.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I refuse to settle on the "goddidit" answer, when there are other just as rational explanations.

Yes, I think it's important to maintain an open mind on these questions.

 

[The Hammer]

Yes, I think it's important to maintain an open mind on these questions.

Me too

 

[Robert.Evans]

Again, I am a theist, I don't discount god. I just prefer looking for the scientific reasonings behind the universe. Not the pseudo-religious attempted explanation. I refuse to settle on the "goddidit" answer, when there are other just as rational explanations.

But I am not saying that God did it and that is it. I am saying God is evolving consciousness and what you see is that. It is expressed here in physical terms so it would be seen differently.

 

[Robert.Evans]

It would be good if you could explain it coherently in any terms. I'm afraid it still just sounds like a belief that you have, a variation on pantheism.
You can say "everything is conscious" as often as you like, but that doesn't make it any more true.

nor less.

 

[Robert.Evans]

It would be good if you could explain it coherently in any terms. I'm afraid it still just sounds like a belief that you have, a variation on pantheism.
You can say "everything is conscious" as often as you like, but that doesn't make it any more true.

God is evolving consciousness, so everything is, as that is all there is. What we see is what we are, and is part of him. He is us and we are him. All is part of one consciousness. Will that do? I didn't capitalise anything, just for you. Now ain't that sweet!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

nor less.

It doesn't make it true at all. It's just something you currently believe in. I could keep saying "space aliens are among us" and actually believe it, but my guess is you wouldn't take that seriously unless I had some kind of proof.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I am saying God is evolving consciousness and what you see is that.

Another assumption. A belief. It does sound quite pantheistic.

 

[The Hammer]

But I am not saying that God did it and that is it. I am saying God is evolving consciousness and what you see is that. It is expressed here in physical terms so it would be seen differently.

What you call this "God conciousness" I sense no consciousness from. But I do have a name for it. It is Nwyfre. The welsh word for breath/soul/air. Nwyfre is the divine current that permeates the entirety of the universe. Many mistake this for a consciousness, having a will and drive of it's own, but it does not (not in my experience). It is more akin to "The Force" from Star Wars. It's not good or bad, but it is the source of all existence and life, all can feel it, whereas some may be more sensitive to it then others. And this energy is what also created the gods. I do not use create in the conscious of actions sense, but more like Energy.
Electricity (Nywfre), is present throughout a house (universe), where many appliances (gods) are manifesting life from it.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It's not good or bad, but it is the source of all existence and life, all can feel it, whereas some may be more sensitive to it then others.

Could you say something about your personal experience with this?

 

[Robert.Evans]

It doesn't make it true at all. It's just something you currently believe in. I could keep saying "space aliens are among us" and actually believe it, but my guess is you wouldn't take that seriously unless I had some kind of proof.

Different thing altogether.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Another assumption. A belief. It does sound quite pantheistic.

It is not an assumption, It is spiritually discerned. Just becasue you can't see it does not mean others can't. It is very annoying that people who don't understand think they are right.

 

[Robert.Evans]

{{{MS: You are an adherent to the view that it’s neither random evolution as Darwin posited, nor so-called Creationism minus Evolution, but Evolution guided by Consciousness or Intelligent Design. Is that right?

AG: Yes that is right. In fact, I point out that data, if looked upon objectively without emotion, without attachment to particular theory, has been pointing to this direction for quite some time. There are the fossil gaps, there is the absolutely indisputable biological era of time from simplicity to complexity. You just mentioned two pieces of data which cannot be understood in any other way but intelligent design through quantum evolution. For in the past, you’ve had epochs of evolution in which quantum leaps of creativity took place.}}}

Enrichment.Com Interviews Dr. Amit Goswami | Enrichment.com

Just as an interesting point. Not read the whole post.

 

[The Hammer]

Could you say something about your personal experience with this?

Nothing that would convince anyone of it's existence, necessarily, considering it is subjective.

I would say the most profound experience of it is at the level of deep meditation. Being able to feel the interconnectedness of things around me, a buzzing awareness. The ability to call upon it during ritual to drive and direct states of consciousness.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is spiritually discerned.

Sorry Robert but that is no good because you have consistently refused to explain what that means or describe your own experience of the God within and so on. You have provided nothing to support this claim, not even the support of personal experience. So I still can't take it seriously.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I would say the most profound experience of it is at the level of deep meditation. Being able to feel the interconnectedness of things around me, a buzzing awareness. The ability to call upon it during ritual to drive and direct states of consciousness.

Yes, I can relate to that from experience of Buddhist meditation. Some of these meditative states come with a physical aspect, one I often get is rather like a mild electric shock. Also a strong sense of the mind expanding. Interconnectedness is a feeling I can also relate to.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Goswami (page 8) writes the following. "Every biologist must be painfully aware that biology is an incomplete science. It needs new organizing principles, ones that are nonphysical and nonmaterial, to explain three perennial mysteries: the difference between life and nonlife, the development of an embryo into an adult biological form, and, as emphasized here and by Eldredge and Gould, the discontinuous epochs of evolution. Unfortunately, it is not politically correct for biologist to admit these shortcomings in public."

Creative Evolution: A Physicist's Resolution Between Darwinism and Intelligent Design: A Quantum Resolution Between Darwinism and Intelligent Design: Amazon.co.uk: Dr Amit Goswami: 9780835608589: Books

Some more food for thought.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Sorry Robert but that is no good because you have consistently refused to explain what that means or describe your own experience of the God within and so on. You have provided nothing to support this claim, not even the support of personal experience. So I still can't take it seriously.

I have explained it, but you don't want to accept it. It is God given, does that answer it? What we do and what we believe is from God, does that answer it? You do not think anything without that thought coming from him, the higher-consciousness, does that answer it?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is God given, does that answer it?

That's no answer at all. Last time you said it I asked if you could explain what exactly that means, what exactly is God given. No response, no attempt at an explanation or clarification. Just repeating these bland stock phrases is no use at all.

Me: "Space aliens are among us"
You: "How do you know?"
Me: "I just know, it's a matter of space-alien discernment"

See the problem?