Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[savagewind]

Wait until you have had that feeling for decades, then tell me about it, LOL.

It is not normal. Is it? If it isn't what causes it?

 

[YmirGF]

It is not normal. Is it? If it isn't what causes it?

If I were to go out on a limb, I might suggest that you are sensing the multidimensional aspects of your larger nature. Get used to it, LOL.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Another thing that intrigues me is how appealing people find the concept of a changeless universal constant, I suppose it is so appealing as an ideal because they are so very aware of the relentless change in our own experience.

Yes, it's a comfort, something to hang onto. The OP question feels rather like an appeal to pantheism actually.

 

[metis]

Science is filled with many highly credentials scientists who perused less than scientific ideals in their latter years.

True, but the minute they do that they are no longer operating out of the realm of science.

Also, if a person who is a scientist has a habit of jumping to unwarranted conclusions, then I have to lean in the direction that maybe they're really not that committed to science.

 

[YmirGF]

True, but the minute they do that they are no longer operating out of the realm of science.

Also, if a person who is a scientist has a habit of jumping to unwarranted conclusions, then I have to lean in the direction that maybe they're really not that committed to science.

Indeed. I think the trend just shows that even scientists are not above making wild assumptions. The thing is, if they are sincere, they are totally honest about those assumptions and will clearly label them as such. Say, unlike what godnotgod has been doing for a very long and tedious time...

 

[Robert.Evans]

Yes, it's a comfort, something to hang onto. The OP question feels rather like an appeal to pantheism actually.

No it's God given, and just appears that way to you.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No it's God given, and just appears that way to you.

Sorry Robert but if you won't go into any detail that's just an empty claim.

In any case it doesn't seem relevant to the OP question.

 

[YmirGF]

No it's God given, and just appears that way to you.

Well, at least you are honest, Robert. Pity the Perfect Master of Bafflegag wasn't so humble.

 

[The Hammer]

According to this article, theoretically it is very possible to have life order itself from non-life, based on thermodynamics. Only speculation at this time, but in the process of being tested

A New Thermodynamics Theory of the Origin of Life | Quanta Magazine

 

[Robert.Evans]

According to this article, theoretically it is very possible to have life order itself from non-life, based on thermodynamics. Only speculation at this time, but in the process of being tested

A New Thermodynamics Theory of the Origin of Life | Quanta Magazine

Thanks for the link. It looks good.
I go this quote off another page on the same site, which was quite funny.

Is Nature Unnatural?
Decades of confounding experiments have physicists considering a startling possibility: The universe might not make sense.

 

[The Hammer]

Is Nature Unnatural?
Decades of confounding experiments have physicists considering a startling possibility: The universe might not make sense.

This just equates Chaos Theory I think. That there really is no "sense or order", that we just consciously create it, so we don't go insane.

It is kinda funny though.

 

[savagewind]

According to this article, theoretically it is very possible to have life order itself from non-life, based on thermodynamics. Only speculation at this time, but in the process of being tested

A New Thermodynamics Theory of the Origin of Life | Quanta Magazine

I think the problem is how are all the "pieces" or parts available?

 

[savagewind]

All what is needed not only exists but is in close enough proximity for usefulness. We can't explain that away but to say "INTELLIGENCE".

 

[The Hammer]

All what is needed not only exists but is in close enough proximity for usefulness. We can't explain that away but to say "INTELLIGENCE".

I like how the closer we get to finding out how the universe really works, the more "vague" this intelligence question gets. It went from "things fall you can't explain that (intelligence)", to "the sun moves around a stationary earth you can't explain that (intelligence)", ad infinitum. The more we learn, the more vague the question gets, and now we are with "where did all the little bits and bobbles come from, you can't explain that"... Doesn't matter. We can't explain it now. But in time it will be made available to us. As long as we are allowed to continue to pursue the research.

 

[savagewind]

I like how the closer we get to finding out how the universe really works, the more "vague" this intelligence question gets. It went from "things fall you can't explain that (intelligence)", to "the sun moves around a stationary earth you can't explain that (intelligence)", ad infinitum. The more we learn, the more vague the question gets, and now we are with "where did all the little bits and bobbles come from, you can't explain that"... Doesn't matter. We can't explain it now. But in time it will be made available to us. As long as we are allowed to continue to pursue the research.

I didn't ask where they came from. I asked how did they find each other.

 

[The Hammer]

I didn't ask where they came from. I asked how did they find each other.

That's just a different take on essentially the same question. And the "how" is what that article was trying to explain. Thermodynamics.

 

[savagewind]

You realize, do you not, that to build something all the building materials must be at the building site? How did each small or large part make it there in the right order? You say "science will answer it". Don't hold your breath.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Of course not. I thought that was clear. But what QM makes clear is that matter simply doesn't exist. So now where does that leave you and your description of the world as being 'physical'?

It says that what we see is not necessarily how things are. Not that it is non-physical.

But the background to the rock and the entire universe may indeed have consciousness. The sea is the background to the fish. What is the background to you, myself, rocks, trees, planets, stars, galaxies, etc.? IOW, you currently exist in some kind of context. What is that context?

I would not see the ocean as conscious but the system in which we call the "ocean" not just the water is very much alive.

 

[Midnight Rain]

I asked because I was curious. I may be an atheist, but that doesn't mean I am not spiritual.

Ah. Well in general it means all of the energy that we can feel. There is radiant energy all around the universe that connects us all. What is possible, what is impossible and the tracts we take in life are all choices and where does our "will" end. I believe that the energy of the universe extends beyond the reach of our own physical touch.

 

[Midnight Rain]

How incredibly refreshing in this long and often tedious discussion.

I believe what I believe but that doesn't mean I don't understand that it is totally subjective and devoid of the necessary elements required to uphold a logical debate based on objective evidence. Though I think this also stems from the fact I don't think my understanding is "correct" in that any and all possible definitions would be wrong to some degree. It is not usually a pagan thing to claim absolute truth.