Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[godnotgod]

We should never assume that anything is unchanging, but neither should we assume nihilism.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm only going by what recent scientific findings are telling us about the nature of what we thought to be the 'material' world.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Again, it boils down to how one may define "matter".

Yes, and also how we define "consciousness".

 

[Robert.Evans]

It would be interesting to hear some examples. I am genuinely curious because I've never experienced anything relating to God, despite a lifetime of meditation and other spiritual practices.
Sure, I don't believe in God, but I do admit the possibility that I might be missing something - so maybe you could explain what you think that is, or describe how you experience it? How does God reveal himself within? What's it like?
Just saying "If you don't believe in God you won't understand God" seems a bit lame to me.

I'm sorry if it lame to you, but it is what it is. Why must there be some sort of connection that you see or feel? Even the lord said, There will be no sign. So why look for one. Things happen in your life that are of interest, but I said, I am not interested in wracking my brain to think of any. perhaps I will in the future. As it is now, it is just understanding what is put before you. You can't do that as you don't believe. I have told you, It is spiritually discerned. The one without the spirit cannot discern spiritual things. That is it. Repentance is the thing that leads to God, if you are seeking. If not, then I can't help you. It is between you and Him, not me and you. I will be of no help.

 

[savagewind]

I think it is a feeling as though I exist in the future and the present at the same time.

 

[metis]

I'm not assuming anything. I'm only going by what recent scientific findings are telling us about the nature of what we thought to be the 'material' world.

I am aware of what the research is indicating, but what I'm saying is that much research is yet to be done, plus we gotta be careful in terms of making assumptions at this point, plus not taking extreme positions. There simply is no indication that nihilism is involved.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Yes, and also how we define "consciousness".

Physicist John Hagelin:
"At the core basis of the universe is a single unified field of intelligence which joins all things. All forces of nature are now understood to be one; they are different ripples on a single ocean of existence."

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I will be of no help

OK, maybe you'll think of something. Anyway it's probably all a bit off topic I guess!

So after a marathon 97 pages, have we come up with anything convincing to support the idea that the universe needs intelligence to order it?

 

[metis]

Physicist John Hagelin:
"At the core basis of the universe is a single unified field of intelligence which joins all things. All forces of nature are now understood to be one; they are different ripples on a single ocean of existence."

I would suggest that this is just his opinion as it is literally impossible to substantiate this.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I would suggest that this is just his opinion as it is literally impossible to substantiate this.

Yes, and I don't think it's a view widely held in the scientific community.

A question that occurs to me is why would we want to believe in an intelligent universe? What need does that fullfill?

 

[Robert.Evans]

OK, maybe you'll think of something. Anyway it's probably all a bit off topic I guess!

So after a marathon 97 pages, have we come up with anything convincing to support the idea that the universe needs intelligence to order it?

haha... straight to the throat hey! I guess if you don't want the idea then that is it. There is nothing that is solid in science but one day may be there will be

I would suggest that this is just his opinion as it is literally impossible to substantiate this.

I think I could agree with that. He has loads of awards but has been ostracised I believe from the scientific community. Either way, he is not the only one, and my oh my, it is interesting that they would say such things, really!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think it is a feeling as though I exist in the future and the present at the same time.

Could you say a bit more about that?

 

[metis]

Yes, and I don't think it's a view widely held in the scientific community.

I can guarantee you it's not.

A question that occurs to me is why would we want to believe in an intelligent universe? What need does that fullfill?

I asked someone else who has consistently made much the same claim and received no answer other than supposedly knowing it which, along with $5, can get one a coffee at Starbucks.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

traight to the throat hey! I guess if you don't want the idea then that is it. There is nothing that is solid in science but one day may be there will be

Just cutting through the foliage as usual. Actually I have an open mind on stuff like this, but I'm entitled to be sceptical and I won't clutch at these beliefs just because they feel a bit comforting or something.

The strongest argument I remember on this thread was the probability argument. Apart from that nothing much, just a load of speculative assumptions really.

 

[YmirGF]

To atheists it would be mumbo jumbo that I don't defend as fact in debates. It is my spiritual view.

How incredibly refreshing in this long and often tedious discussion.

I don't think your view is supported by QM in the way we understand it scientifically. And I said that I did "not" think that a rock had consciousness as it doesn't have a spiritual viewpoint. It can have an energy but it isn't self reflective.

Well, then you're obviously not thinking clearly. Duh! You either "get it" or you are stupid. Well, that is the message I am hearing, at least by our "finger on the pulse" new-age guru wannabe.

 

[metis]

I think I could agree with that. He has loads of awards but has been ostracised I believe from the scientific community. Either way, he is not the only one, and my oh my, it is interesting that they would say such things, really!

If one claims a scientific fact as a scientist but doesn't use the scientific method, ya, I can easily see why he would be ostracized.

 

[YmirGF]

I would suggest that this is just his opinion as it is literally impossible to substantiate this.

AND that he was probably trip over his feet to agree as rapidly as possible with you on this point, lest people got the wrong idea.

 

[YmirGF]

I'm not assuming anything. I'm only going by what recent scientific findings are telling us about the nature of what we thought to be the 'material' world.

Being dishonest doesn't really help your case though, Godnotgod. You are making several sweeping assumptions based on your thinking and how you personally interpret the data set you perceive. Heck, you even told us earlier how we had to learn to connect he dots. Sadly, some of your dots are the work of an over-active imagination projected onto the background you have been rattling on about of late.

 

[YmirGF]

I think it is a feeling as though I exist in the future and the present at the same time.

Wait until you have had that feeling for decades, then tell me about it, LOL.

 

[YmirGF]

If one claims a scientific fact as a scientist but doesn't use the scientific method, ya, I can easily see why he would be ostracized.

Science is filled with many highly credentials scientists who perused less than scientific ideals in their latter years.

 

[YmirGF]

Just cutting through the foliage as usual. Actually I have an open mind on stuff like this, but I'm entitled to be sceptical and I won't clutch at these beliefs just because they feel a bit comforting or something.

The strongest argument I remember on this thread was the probability argument. Apart from that nothing much, just a load of speculative assumptions really.

How strange that I would agree with the last part especially.

You know, when I was younger, I was utterly convinced that I had a larger piece of the puzzle clutched in my hands than that of those human animals around me. It was all so obvious to me. I was puzzled why I had to explain ANYTHING, it was SO obvious. Then, as I got older, and encountered this sensation on a more or less permanent basis, I began to consider that I simply had a different piece of the puzzle (of life) than that of my fellow human animals. I also became aware of the fact that many of them had things clutched in their little mitts that were not so obvious to me.

All in all, what I have learned from this thread is that some human animals can become fixated on the certainty of their perceptions, a trait I have fallen into, from time to time, in my short life. The main thing to remember and constantly remind oneself is that very few things in life are certain. Another thing that intrigues me is how appealing people find the concept of a changeless universal constant, I suppose it is so appealing as an ideal because they are so very aware of the relentless change in our own experience. It's fun to think that, "Ah, one day, everything will remain the same..."