Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[godnotgod]

Thought leads to seeking, seeking leads to the experience.

I would say that the exhaustion of seeking makes the situation ripe for the experience. Until then, seeking mostly leads to more seeking. Why is that so? Because mostly, we seek with a preconceived notion of what we are seeking in mind. That image must first be destroyed.

 

[Midnight Rain]

How do you determine their physicality, as compared to non-physicality?

How does your view and claims to the universe differ from that of the materialistic view?

 

[godnotgod]

How does your view and claims to the universe differ from that of the materialistic view?

It doesn't differ, but it includes the materialist view. It's like the materialist view is only looking at one side of Reality, and the spiritual view is a holistic view that not only includes the materialist view, but transforms it so that one now sees things as they actually are, rather than how materialism dictates it to be. When I say 'transforms', I do not mean that Reality is transformed; I mean our consciousness becomes transformed from the conditioned state to it's unconditioned, or original state.

So, can you tell me how it is that you determine the physical as being the physical?

 

[godnotgod]

 

[savagewind]

I would say that the exhaustion of seeking makes the situation ripe for the experience. Until then, seeking mostly leads to more seeking. Why is that so? Because mostly, we seek with a preconceived notion of what we are seeking in mind. That image must first be destroyed.

That is correct. I was seeking "what it is". I had no idea what it was.

 

[Midnight Rain]

It doesn't differ, but it includes the materialist view. It's like the materialist view is only looking at one side of Reality, and the spiritual view is a holistic view that not only includes the materialist view, but transforms it so that one now sees things as they actually are, rather than how materialism dictates it to be. When I say 'transforms', I do not mean that Reality is transformed; I mean our consciousness becomes transformed from the conditioned state to it's unconditioned, or original state.

So, can you tell me how it is that you determine the physical as being the physical?

So what else do you see other than the materialistic? Answer that and I can answer your question.

 

[godnotgod]

So what else do you see other than the materialistic? Answer that and I can answer your question.

Primarily that the 'material' world isn't actually material. I think we've seen enough of Quantum Physics to show us that.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Primarily that the 'material' world isn't actually material. I think we've seen enough of Quantum Physics to show us that.

And what is it and how do you derive it?

 

[metis]

Primarily that the 'material' world isn't actually material. I think we've seen enough of Quantum Physics to show us that.

That depends on how one might define "material".

 

[godnotgod]

And what is it and how do you derive it?

Excuse me? Derive what? I don't understand your question. I see that you are now trying to turn the tables on who is questioning who. Not that I mind, but it seems a bit unfair to suspend your answer pending mine.

 

[godnotgod]

That depends on how one might define "material".

True. I am using the word in the sense of its classical meaning. However, even in the age of Quantum Physics, the widespread image of the world is that material exhibits some kind of solidity. I think the confusion is partly due to mistaking form for material. Ultimately, however, isn't all 'material' transformable into energy?

 

[Midnight Rain]

Excuse me? Derive what? I don't understand your question. I see that you are now trying to turn the tables on who is questioning who. Not that I mind, but it seems a bit unfair to suspend your answer pending mine.

I mean you say you see more than just the material. When an atheist looks at the universe they see the laws, the matter, the energy. What in addition to that do you see and how do you see it?

Spirituality on my case tends to be within. I am a pagan with pantheistic roots. The all is all encompassing and the energy of the universe, not necessarily measurable energy by our current standards, take form in certain ways. Then they are self reflected to take the forms we feel them in. And of course magic I believe in and how we can "feel" but on a spiritual level magic.

 

[godnotgod]

I mean you say you see more than just the material. When an atheist looks at the universe they see the laws, the matter, the energy. What in addition to that do you see and how do you see it?

Spirituality on my case tends to be within. I am a pagan with pantheistic roots. The all is all encompassing and the energy of the universe, not necessarily measurable energy by our current standards, take form in certain ways. Then they are self reflected to take the forms we feel them in. And of course magic I believe in and how we can "feel" but on a spiritual level magic.

In that case, maybe we can cut to the chase: As a pagan with pantheistic roots, do you see the universe as conscious?

 

[Midnight Rain]

In that case, maybe we can cut to the chase: As a pantheist, do you see the universe as conscious?

I see it as is. The fundamental issue is that a rock is not conscious. The energy exists and it is reflected in me who is conscious. Through me and other people the gods and goddesses are shaped into being from this energy as reflected from us. So the answer is both yes and no. To a rock the universe is not conscious. To me it is.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The energy exists and it is reflected in me who is conscious. Through me and other people the gods and goddesses are shaped into being from this energy as reflected from us.

Could you say a bit more about what you mean by "energy" here?

 

[godnotgod]

I see it as is. The fundamental issue is that a rock is not conscious. The energy exists and it is reflected in me who is conscious. Through me and other people the gods and goddesses are shaped into being from this energy as reflected from us. So the answer is both yes and no. To a rock the universe is not conscious. To me it is.

Interesting. My take on it is a bit different. I see consciousness (the background) as doing the universe (the foreground) in its entirety, including you and I. The consciousness we think of as 'I' is an illusion; it is actually a universal consciousness projecting us and everything else, but acting in such a way as to be all the parts of the universe, such as stars, rocks, trees, animals, and us. Once the facade of individual personal consciousness is seen through, all of a sudden everything is seen as alive and conscious. This 'I' holds everything in a kind of suspension as unconscious 'things', apart from a conscious observer. So from the point of view of universal consciousness, this world is not real. From the point of view of personal consciousness, it is. This seems to coincide with the Quantum view of the world compared to our ordinary everyday 'materialist' view of the world.

So you said a rock is conscious. For me, that translates as having spirituality, which transforms its physicality. When we say 'physical', we are conceiving that state of being as existing in the foreground of our conscious attention against a background of the non-physical, without realizing it, because the background is already in place. It is this non-physical state that is consciousness, or spirituality, that infuses the entire universe.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

As ever in this thread it would be helpful to hear about some actual personal experience, instead of just repeating bland generalisations.

You are so right!

Continuous Cacophony of Cliches.

 

[metis]

True. I am using the word in the sense of its classical meaning. However, even in the age of Quantum Physics, the widespread image of the world is that material exhibits some kind of solidity. I think the confusion is partly due to mistaking form for material. Ultimately, however, isn't all 'material' transformable into energy?

Where part of the problem lies is that energy itself is made up of particles, which some may classify as "material". This is why a laser, which shoots out photons, a form of energy, can be used to cut objects.

 

[godnotgod]

Where part of the problem lies is that energy itself is made up of particles, which some may classify as "material". This is why a laser, which shoots out photons, a form of energy, can be used to cut objects.

Photons are energy, not matter.

It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

• New Scientist November 2008 by Stephen Battersby

Matter is built on flaky foundations. Physicists have now confirmed that the apparently substantial stuff is actually no more than fluctuations in the quantum vacuum.

The researchers simulated the frantic activity that goes on inside protons and neutrons. These particles provide almost all the mass of ordinary matter.

Each proton (or neutron) is made of three quarks - but the individual masses of these quarks only add up to about 1% of the proton's mass. So what accounts for the rest of it?

Theory says it is created by the force that binds quarks together, called the strong nuclear force. In quantum terms, the strong force is carried by a field of virtual particles called gluons, randomly popping into existence and disappearing again. The energy of these vacuum fluctuations has to be included in the total mass of the proton and neutron.,,,,

,,,,The Higgs field is also thought to make a small contribution, giving mass to individual quarks as well as to electrons and some other particles. The Higgs field creates mass out of the quantum vacuum too, in the form of virtual Higgs bosons. So if the LHC confirms that the Higgs exists, it will mean all reality is virtual.

It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations - physics-math - 20 November 2008 - New Scientist

 

[godnotgod]

The Illusion of Matter: Our Physical Material World Isn’t Really Physical At All
December 5, 2013 by Arjun Walia


'Quantum physicists discovered that physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature. Therefore, if we really want to observe ourselves and find out what we are, we are really beings of energy and vibration, radiating our own unique energy signature -this is fact and is what quantum physics has shown us time and time again. We are much more than what we perceive ourselves to be, and it’s time we begin to see ourselves in that light. If you observed the composition of an atom with a microscope, you would see a small, invisible tornado like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void.(0) The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.'

The Illusion of Matter: Our Physical Material World Isn’t Really Physical At All | Collective-Evolution