Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[savagewind]

So the difference between the known and the unknown?

I don't know if it is that simple because all known truth isn't simple and some people who are too disinterested in attaining any kind of realization won't even know simple truth.
If it were between known and unknown there would be no such thing as plain truth imo. What is plain truth?

 

[Thief]

If your experience is authentic, what need is there then for belief?

Q: What is it about your experience that makes you certain it is about a heavenly 'father'? Do you know what psychological projection is?

That would be something beyond your ability to say.
'you' don't exist.
'you' can't say.
'you' need to get a life.
'you' apparently don't have one.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Of course. Maybe the difference is that some of us are aware of it. How aware are you of it?

I think, YOU think, you are aware of it more because of cognitive bias.

People can experience cognitive dissonance when firmly held beliefs are challenged, it's quite uncomfortable but an indicator that current assumptions might need some revision.
This is basic psychology, by the way.

I have been aware of it in the past, and it is a good indicator. I don't feel it now. All things are real and all things are not.

Sadly I think a lot of people aren't aware of the extent of confirmation bias, and maybe Dawkins had a point when he called his book "The God delusion".

Perhaps he had a mindset already made up with no proof for the title of the book! Think about it.

The psychology of belief is a fascinating subject.

But that is mere philosophy. It might make sense in a worldly framework, but it shows nothing accept to make the one saying it feel better. We all protect are egos, right? The difference is, some of us are aware of a divine self not just a worldly self.

Absolutely.

But you did not mention it, which made it sound a little one sided; much like the title The G-d Delusion. Did he acknowledge anywere in that book that he might be deluded? Could that even be possible? Surely not. After all, if he was fooled, he would know about it, wouldn't he!

And I am somewhat dubious about people who claim to know. I think it's often belief masquerading as insight, something clearly in evidence on this thread.

Or it might be a lack of understanding on the part of the one who does not understand. Let me ask you this, is there any other subject, other than theology, that people who don't understand it, actually think THEY are right?

And true insight isn't perturbed by challenge.

Quite.

 

[YmirGF]

I think, YOU think, you are aware of it more because of cognitive bias.

Dang. The repair technician at my local Irony Metre repair firm is making a fortune off me these days. I just got the bleeding thing back yesterday and now you've gone and snapped the needle right off.

Every time you break an irony metre, god kills a kitten.
Think of the KITTENS!!!!

I have been aware of it in the past, and it is a good indicator. I don't feel it now. All things are real and all things are not.

Sadly, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. I wish things were different, but that is just not realistic. It is always helpful when our ideas do not clash with reality.

But that is mere philosophy. It might make sense in a worldly framework, but it shows nothing accept to make the one saying it feel better. We all protect are egos, right? The difference is, some of us are aware of a divine self not just a worldly self.

Well, unlike one nameless sot in this conversation, at least you are honest. So, it really is some kind of funky private members, invitation only, type thingy, eh? Is there a secret handshake too or that optional?

But you did not mention it, which made it sound a little one sided; much like the title The G-d Delusion. Did he acknowledge anywere in that book that he might be deluded? Could that even be possible? Surely not. After all, if he was fooled, he would know about it, wouldn't he!

Given that Dawkins is a scientist, one would assume it is his default position and therefore he doesn't have to say it. Just sayin'...

Or it might be a lack of understanding on the part of the one who does not understand.

*Snort*
Heaven forbid it is the little more than idealistic nonsense coming from believers, eh?

Let me ask you this, is there any other subject, other than theology, that people who don't understand it, actually think THEY are right?

Politics. Economics. Law. Psychology... etc... etc... etc... etc... etc...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Let me ask you this, is there any other subject, other than theology, that people who don't understand it, actually think THEY are right?

I understand theology, I just don't find it convincing.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Dang. The repair technician at my local Irony Metre repair firm is making a fortune off me these days. I just got the bleeding thing back yesterday and now you've gone and snapped the needle right off.

Every time you break an irony metre, god kills a kitten.
Think of the KITTENS!!!!

haha... I don't think God, the Ultimate One, kills anything. That happened when we got free license. Perhaps you think of a lower God.

Sadly, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. I wish things were different, but that is just not realistic. It is always helpful when our ideas do not clash with reality.

I don't think they do. But I don't see why we must see things in a materialistic way to say it is real. Pr:b Cox said that be believes in the many world theory where every possible event takes place. (he may not have said ''believe'' I can't recall the exact quote)

Well, unlike one nameless sot in this conversation, at least you are honest.

Oh I think he is as well.

So, it really is some kind of funky private members, invitation only, type thingy, eh? Is there a secret handshake too or that optional?

It is by invitation only yes, and for the few. Though considering the ''few'' seems to have turned into the ''many'' it shows that there is more to it than meets the eye.

Given that Dawkins is a scientist, one would assume it is his default position and therefore he doesn't have to say it. Just sayin'...

Nearly half of scientists believe in God of those who were polled. Of the top ones, it is not many, but there is still some tehre, like F Collins who is in the Obama administration still, as far as I know.

*Snort*

You got a cold?

Heaven forbid it is the little more than idealistic nonsense coming from believers, eh?

As you said: ''Heaven forbid''.

Politics. Economics. Law. Psychology... etc... etc... etc... etc... etc...

Not quite the same is it? They are all subjects where someone might disagree with one's point of view, like we do in theology.... not quite the same as saying that the person who is the expert on it does not have a clue what he is on about, but the person who is not the expert, does!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

...person who is the expert on

I don't see how having a belief in something makes one an expert on it.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I understand theology, I just don't find it convincing.

Hmmmm....... With the greatest of respect, I don't think you do. I don't think it is possible. I think you can understand the words we use, but not the entire concept. It is God given, spiritually discerned. So there!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is God given, spiritually discerned.

So how have you experienced being given something by God - what's it actually like? As for "spiritually discerned" we still have no explanation for what that means.

As ever in this thread it would be helpful to hear about some actual personal experience, instead of just repeating bland generalisations.

 

[Robert.Evans]

So how have you experienced being given something by God - what's it actually like? As for "spiritually discerned" we still have no explanation for what that means.

As ever in this thread it would be helpful to hear about some actual personal experience, instead of just repeating bland generalisations.

You keep asking the wrong questions Spiny. You have what God gives you as I do. What is there to understand? It is only a problem for you because you don't believe in the first place. Do you never stop to think why everything is here, or where it is all from? Do you never look at how massive a question that is? How does any of this exist without Consciousness to form it? How is it possible that anything would form anything without something guiding it? Why would it? Why would processes exist in the first place that can become a kind of artificial intelligence to make randomness into non-random. Do you not think that is somewhat lucky times infinity?

 

[savagewind]

I think God given is another way to say a transformation to a higher sense of being and purpose. Before it there is no purpose but to survive and enjoy surviving. After it there is a sense that every action means something more than just personal.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I think God given is another way to say a transformation to a higher sense of being and purpose. Before it there is no purpose but to survive and enjoy surviving. After it there is a sense that every action means something more than just personal.

Very well put.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You have what God gives you as I do.

So you're saying that your belief in God is the result of having thought about it , and not on a particular spiritual experience of God?

 

[savagewind]

Thought leads to seeking, seeking leads to the experience.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Thought leads to seeking, seeking leads to the experience.

Not for everyone.

 

[savagewind]

Imagine. Some soul will seek to prove seeking is worth seeking. But imagine you are the one being sought in that scenario. Would you be found by that one? Why?

 

[godnotgod]

I understand this. "Belief" in that there is no good reason to change my "mind". I am certain I do not want to kill my Heavenly Father.

I know what a psycological projection is. I read a little.

Sorry, I guess I still don't understand the nature of your experience of a 'heavenly father'. Is there an image and/or voice involved as part of the experience, or merely your image projected onto some 'other'?

re: psychological projection:

THE EGOTISTICAL STATES

1. APPARENT LOVE OF OTHERS BY PROJECTION OF THE EGO:

This is idolatrous love, in which the ego is projected onto another
being. The pretention to divinity as 'distinct' has left my organism and is now
fixed onto the organism of the other. The affective situation resembles that
above, with the difference that the other has taken my place in my scale of
values. I desire the existence of the other-idol, and am against everything that
is opposed to them. I no longer love my own organism except in so far as it is
the faithful servant of the idol; apart from that I have no further sentiments
towards my organism, I am indifferent to it, and, if necessary, I can give my
life for the safety of my idol (I can sacrifice my organism to my Ego fixed on
the idol; like Empedocles throwing himself down the crater of Etna in order
to immortalise his Ego). As for the rest of the world, I hate it if it is hostile to
my idol; if it is not hostile and if my contemplation of the idol fills me with
joy (that is to say, with egotistical affirmation), I love indiscriminately all the
rest of the world. If the idolised being rejects me to the point of forbidding me
all possession of my Ego in them, the apparent love can be turned to hate.

excerpted from: Zen and the Psychology of Transformation, by Hubert Benoit

 

[savagewind]

No. Not me on God. God on me. So it's God doing the projection I guess.

 

[godnotgod]

Imagine. Some soul will seek to prove seeking is worth seeking. But imagine you are the one being sought in that scenario. Would you be found by that one? Why?

'That which you are seeking is causing you to seek'
Cheri Hubert, Zen author

 

[godnotgod]

No. Not me on God. God on me. So it's God doing the projection I guess.

But, you see, that is the problem with projection. We project the image, and then see the projection as real; as 'God on me', or 'Jesus on me', or whatever. This happens all the time in love relationships, where the other is not seen for who they are, but for who our projection says they are. This is known as 'Apparent Love'. I am not saying your experience is not authentic, but because of the strong possibility pf projection, it warrants further investigation on your part.